Pool instructors and their level of play??

[ironman]

A lot of great NFL coaches never even got close to playing in the NFL. Vince Lombardi, Bill Walsh, Bill Parcells, Bill Bellichick, Jon Gruden, Steve Mariucci to name a few, there are many more.

Charlie Weiss the head coach of Notre Dame and offensive coordinator for the Patriots for 3 of their Super Bowls did not even play college ball.

Another guy who didn't play college ball was Mark Mangino, the guy who has turned around the Kansas University football program.

I totally believe that someone does not need to be a great player to be a great teacher in any situation.

A little different here though. In pro team sports, Head coaches rely hevily on their ass. coaches to do the coaching and play calling. There are several and most any pro coach is only as good as the teachers he hired. Few head coaches even call offensive or defensive plays anymore.

In pool you work mostly one on one and it is as much about trust as anything. Students must be sold on ideas and willing to trust what the teacher is selling. If the student doesn't have confidence in the teacher, how will ever execute what the teacher is trying to sell.

I've seen instructors who were terrible players, but fair instructors when they got someone very early on. I"ve never seen one of these take someone to the next level though. Then usually the instructor becomes the student and that doesn't last very long.

 

[td873]

Does it matter if someone can play or not 2 B an instructor?

I kno that U don`t have 2 play like a pro 2 B a good instructor, but don`t U have 2 play decent, at least??

Do U think NE1 that plays below a B level can B a good instructor 4 stuff above the basic stuff?

Brian

We've had threads on this topic for years. Here are a few of the notable versions:

Can a coach "coach above their weight?" [2006]

Dont you love it when a lesser player tries to correct you game [2007]

Instructors that won't tell you what speed they are [2008]

And one that has a related question on page 3.

The Perfect Pool Instructor? [2004]

Stated simply, there is lots of good information contained in the storage databases of AZB. And most likely a few, if not more, threads containing similar, or the exact same, information we see in many of today's recycled posts.

One way to interpret this is: you'll get a broader perspective from all the older threads, as many posters won't take the time to repeat their statements year after year. So take a moment to search and be enlightened.

Another way to interpret this is: Please search before you post a really insightful question. You might find the answer before you post.

Or maybe it's as simple as:

In any case, "search" should be EVERYONE's friend.

-td

 

[Flex]

I have had more instructors than I can remember over the years. Ignoring the ones that were teaching things I would never need to apply, every other quality instructor except one walked the walk when they wanted or needed to. I suspect that one instructor could have done just fine had he hit the real world. He had far better abilities to learn from his students than any other instructor I have ever met and he passed on what his students encountered in the real world to his other students.

A person with a good stroke can probably teach you a good stroke. If he is a C player or less he isn't likely to teach you the things you need to know to make you an A player. Talking about instructors that can't and never have been able to do what they are trying to teach, I would say that less than one in a hundred can do a good job of teaching complicated tasks. Again, this only applies to real world activities.

How an instructor has done in competition is almost a non-issue however unless I want to learn the mental game from them. As general rule, top competitors do not make top instructors and top instructors do not make top competitors. Two different sets of personality traits are needed for the two activities and in some areas they are almost mutually exclusive. Top competitors can be decent teachers, top teachers can be decent competitors but the person that can do both at the very top level is extremely rare because he or she has to be able to totally stifle some parts of their personality depending on what they are doing to do both at a very high level.

Hu

There's someone who was a top player, and is a top instructor: Mark Wilson.

Flex

 

[Flex]

The issue here is "the fundamentals". Everything else is a derivation of that. So, who can teach the fundamentals ?? Most likely, someone who has had the worst time of mastering them. Am I supposed to learn from someone who is naturally gifted and can't explain how they do it ?

No offense meant, but exactly how am I supposed to learn from someone like Buddy Hall ? The man has a stroke few can match, but is he going to be able to teach me how I am best to play the game ? Could be. I never had a lesson from Buddy. But if he said, "hit it here with this english and the cue will do this...", I'm not sure my stroke would get it done!

That is the question here. How can I teach you the fundamentals in language you can understand and can execute so that someday, "the light turns on" and you progress on your own or by watching others ?


tim

My suggestion: Get Buddy Hall's "The Clock System" and you'll quickly find out how good he is at teaching. Sure helped me.

Flex

 

[daphish1]

i think golf is a good example of what a good teacher can do for you. Tiger has instructors who inarguably aren't any where near his ability but they help him maintain his number 1 status. The big difference in pool people don't readly have an instructor like they do in golf, although the money isn't anywhere nearly comparable.

If someone can identify where you are making mistakes it is always a benefit

 

[JoeyInCali]

I hope it's a pre-requisite for master instructors to beat at least the 7-ball ghost.

 

[Fatboy]

Please Read This Its A Heartfelt Great Post, Thanks

I KNOW THIS IS SUPER LONG, BUT YOU WILL LEARN ABOUT FATBOY/ERIC IF YOUR INTERESTED: If not you sill might learn about teachers/friendship and other cool things-i put alot into this. Even if you hate me, and thats ok, this thread is good positive stuff. I'm no expert but read-on doubt you'll get board.

thanks

eric


I'm not a Pro teacher like Scott Lee is but I have helped C players or D players straighten out their stroke or helped them make a bridge, and thats about it. I dont have the patience to reach.

I'm proud to say I have been a friend of a pro and accidentally a mental coach(for lack of a better word) for my friend(certainly not a pool teacher-lol) and help him win or do better when I am with him, he stopped picking lint(most of the time, i really get on him about that ). He dosent awalys win when I'm there but I have helped him do better than he would have otherwise-I was told this by a 3rd observer-Jay Helfert and several others over time-more than a dozen by now, I'm very proud of this, more than anyone here will underdstand, he does what I dream of, and does it better(sometimes) when were together, i have seen this and yes there have been some arguments about lint, and other things. Never a bad argument. We treat each other with the highest respect,

I didnt plan on that happening,(helping him be his best, we are friends-We just noticed I did effect his better success when were together because we make eacher laugh) I was only being a friend to someone I care about, I never planned anything like whats happened. It could have been ping-pong or chess not his profession. It wasnt my plan, lets just put it like this "I help someone who I love like a brother, so he will do his best that day". I certainly didnt make him the champion he is, I just bring out his best that day, and thats what friends do for friends, and thats natural from the heart, I dont do that because I have to, I want to. If I was doing more harm than good I would STFU fast and that has happened once or twice is all.

You know how I do this? Without doing it at all, it just happens-Watch movies, talk about golf, have fun, ignore pool, no stress, until 10 minutes while we get dressed and ready to go play-when were both relaxed in a great mood, we are positive get pumped up, if he mentions his match then I talk about it, if he dosent mention it we never talk about it. I awalys ask for permission to watch on the tough ones-the easy ones i ignore, when he wants me to watch a tough one I make sure he cant see me. It works. Thats about it no secret stuff, friends being friends. And thats what being a friend is and putting your man first and in the best spot possible to be his best,

I cant teach him about pool, what a joke that would be. But all Champions are people-Tiger had his Dad to get him pumped , my friend has many others than me to help him(some probably do better than me)- and I'm not there often but I'm proud of what I do, and its not pool. Since I have no family it helps me much as him in different ways,

He helps me too, when I play a match much in the same way-For example I nevered played on the TV table with 300 to 400 people watching til the 10ball ring game last year, I had no shot to win, but I wasnt nervious(my biggest concern-hell i felt like i belonged out there, even being weak compaired to everyone) and missed one makeable shot and scratched once-enough to lose it for me, but I felt comfortable out there-that was a "win" to me, he helped me "win" by achieveing what I wanted, he watched half I was out by the time he got there, but he was a friend to me like I am him-I dont have a brother but his support was just like family. I needed his support and Jay's too and alot of others-thanks you know who you all are.

Friends being there for each other is not teaching, its coaching/support out of love and thats very important. A teacher who loves pool or more importantly his student will be a better teacher. A teacher who is burned out on pool to the point he hates it like Mosconi seemed to me woulndt be a good teacher, you gotta love it and the people your with. Not stupid puppy love or fag love but the highest respect and genuinly careing to the highest level.

Fact is I almost erased this post cause its very private-i'm not bragging, i'm humble and honored to be a good friend nothing more, I love to give. and be supported too(i need to go wipe the tears), thats as real as it gets, its kinda off-topic about teaching, but it takes many forms.

Someone doubted my friendship with somE of my friends-the main one in the subject of this post please let me be chrystal clear-I dont support anyone or buy friends, i'm a whole lot smarter than that. I'm a loner 99% of the time. But the very few friends whom I room with in pool or travel the world with ususlly spend more $$$ on me than I do them or do other things for me-and thats still not the point-the above post is the point, I'm not dumb enough to be a stone sucker and live in a world with phony bought friends, Gold digger girls pay me! Ask around a few guys here know what i'm refering to. i'm not a trick or mark for anyone, this is directed at someone who thinks i support people for friends, i'm not mad at him he is just wrong/CONFUSED, and i'm cool with him,no-biggie.

true friends are earned and must be nutured to keep them, its caring and being there for someone, the fact one of my friends plays pool better than all of us dosent make me special or better than anyone here on this board, and just cause he plays good dosent make him special, our friendship has zero to do with pool, its based on what good freinds are to each other,

sincerly

eric

THANKS IF YOU READ IT, I WANT PEOPLE HERE TO KNOW ME, NOT HAVE "IDEAS" ABOUT ME, THANKS!

 

[Fatboy]

Please Read This Its A Heartfelt Great Post, Thanks

..................................

 

[Fatboy]

See Above Thx

 

[ShootingArts]

a rare beast

There's someone who was a top player, and is a top instructor: Mark Wilson.

Flex

Flex,

As I said, it is a rare beast that can do both at a top level, not impossible. However even Mark may have not been a top instructor when he was at his peak as a competitor. Teaching requires a different mindset and a different focus. Teaching takes focus away from competition and another reality is that top competitors take, they don't give. A top instructor has to be a giving person.

I have been known as a very good instructor, I have been known as a very tough competitor, but trying to do both at once leaves me lacking as a competitor. Put another way, as a competitor my goal is to dominate the other person. Some instructors want to do this too but I have never met one with this mindset that I would call a top instructor.

The issue I have with instructors that can't do and never have been able to do is that they are working entirely on theory in some areas and sometimes the theory is plain wrong. They may be good instructors overall but there will almost certainly be flaws in their teachings. Someone like Mark Wilson who has walked the walk but is focused on teaching now is the very type of instructor I hope to find.

Hu

 

[JoeyInCali]

In response to the original post I think I would rather have a teacher that knows the craft of teaching and understands advanced concepts of the game. Whether or not they can play I really do not care as long as they can figure out what I am doing wrong and know how to correct it.

That's for beginners or intermediate players imo ( pupils ).
When you get the basics down, you'd want a teacher to teach you how to get out and/or win.

 

[mgregory]

The epitome of a GREAT instructor is the ability to take a student who cannot perform to the peak of their ability because of lack of knowledge, and to impart the knowledge needed so that the student can perform at the peak of their ability.

Irrelevant to the level of ability of either the student or the teacher.

 

[Pushout]

I've had instruction from three former world champions, one road player turned promoter, and Hal Houle. The road player showed me the basis of what is now my 9 ball game, which, I admit, I don't play much of any more, but it was invaluable at the time. Hal's aiming system was the best thing I've learned in years! Of the three former champions, two were ok for the time and where I was in my game, the third I really didn't learn any thing I didn't already know.
And, yes, I think the instructor needs to be able to play a little
I forgot to add, I learned to break the balls from someone who learned from a world beater, and I later learned that the road player actually learned to break from the same world beater. Our breaks were very similar.

 

[Bigtruck]

You know how I do this? Without doing it at all, it just happens-Watch movies, talk about golf, have fun, ignore pool, no stress, until 10 minutes while we get dressed and ready to go play-when were both relaxed in a great mood, we are positive get pumped up, if he mentions his match then I talk about it, if he dosent mention it we never talk about it. I awalys ask for permission to watch on the tough ones-the easy ones i ignore, when he wants me to watch a tough one I make sure he cant see me. It works. Thats about it no secret stuff, friends being friends. And thats what being a friend is and putting your man first and in the best spot possible to be his best,

Good post Eric! Don't know if it's on topic, but you are obviously a great road dog!

I have made many road trips with a top player (not pro level, by any means), but we always had a great chance to win auction money, and usually did. Being a good friend, giving support and encouragement, can make or break your horse/friend. If you have ulterior motives and not real friendship it don't work!

J.A. is lucky to have a real friend. So many that are tops in their field are very lonely because of the vultures. Top players & top business men will come and go in your life, but top friends will last forever. Friends are there in good and bad. If you have more than a handful you are VERY lucky.

Ray

 

[George]

I think that in order to be a good teacher you need to have spent A LOT of time around the game and have to at least been a solid "B" level or higher player. The real key is time spent around the game which usually translates to at least a modest level of play. Some of these sports analogies aren't really applicable because most of these guys have spent many years coaching with solid mentors showing them the way to coach/teach. We just don't have that kind of hierarchy in pool.
If you're going to teach a pool player you HAVE to have been at least an adequate player("B" level) at some point in your life or you just won't have the experience to convey things to a student. Show me a "C" level player who can teach something(anything) to a Pro and I'll re-evaluate my position.

I think a more reasonable analogy would use school teachers as an example. K-12, graduate and post graduate. It is possible to teach to a certain level and then hand that player off to a teacher that can take them to the next level and so forth. I believe the BCA qualifies teachers at different levels and I think they may be on the right track with this from the limited knowledge I have about the BCA's program.

George

 

[Fatboy]

Good post Eric! Don't know if it's on topic, but you are obviously a great road dog!

I have made many road trips with a top player (not pro level, by any means), but we always had a great chance to win auction money, and usually did. Being a good friend, giving support and encouragement, can make or break your horse/friend. If you have ulterior motives and not real friendship it don't work!

J.A. is lucky to have a real friend. So many that are tops in their field are very lonely because of the vultures. Top players & top business men will come and go in your life, but top friends will last forever. Friends are there in good and bad. If you have more than a handful you are VERY lucky.

Ray

it started on topic, but went off topic, i'm working on my writing skills so i went with it, i didnt want to start a thread with that post so if its read then I know who reads it is interested in me, if not no biggie.

we go back 20 something years but we became close friends about a year and a half ago, wasnt planned at all-it just happened.I know other famous people who I wouldnt give the time of day to-Reggie Jackon, OJ, come to mind, Mark Walberg is cool, Larry Flynt is awesome!!!! I dont care if JA never hits a ball-were friends not cause of pool, I dont mention him here much-never will, that post was about me more than him, i had fun writing it.

thanks RAY and yeah biz sucks everywhere-I dont have any biz just bills. how did that happen???

 

[The King]

I don't know much about JA but he has quickly become my favorite player and I try to watch him play every chance I get. He came through here as a 16 year old kid and played one of the guys that hangs out down at the local pool hall... Hiram use to be a very good player also that never seemed to make it out of Fitzgerald but he still tells the story of JA coming down to play him... He is now older but his eyes light up when he points to the table he played a 16 year old JA on.... When we are in the pool hall and they show one of his matches on ESPN everyone stops to watch ... JA ... Of course he is very popular down here in Georgia ... And I hope to catch him and Earl when they some through Georgia in January ... I just hope they hit a spot in South Georgia so his fans down here get to see him.

Thanks for the post FATBOY...

 

[daveb]

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." ~Chinese Proverb

There are also those that can do, but choose not to.

And maybe you should look beyond the tired platitude and take a moment to think about why someone might make that choice.

 

["T"]

As general rule, top competitors do not make top instructors and top instructors do not make top competitors. Two different sets of personality traits are needed for the two activities and in some areas they are almost mutually exclusive. Top competitors can be decent teachers, top teachers can be decent competitors but the person that can do both at the very top level is extremely rare because he or she has to be able to totally stifle some parts of their personality depending on what they are doing to do both at a very high level.

Hu

I completely agree. The desire and satisfaction of helping someone learn and grow completely contradicts the desire and satisfaction of vanquishing your opponent.

 

[daveb]

Exactly. Thank you.