Pool instructors and their level of play??

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
tap, tap, tap...well said!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

tonyc said:
I think having a good player teach you is a bonus, Someone that can go through the motions and play the shots they are teaching is huge. If you can find someone that is qualified in both this is the way I would go certified or not.
 

Pinocchio

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Scott...........

Just because somebody said you can't play you don't have to take everything so personal. I don't think this thread is about you. I'm sure there are instructors with a lot less game than you have. Scott my advice would be to keep positive an don't let everthing get to you. This would probably make you a better instructor an player. No Charge..........
Pinocchio
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
There is also a difference between teaching and coaching. To me teaching is the imparting of new knowledge in order to build competence. Coaching is the honing of established skills in order to build excellence.

Anyone can be a teacher and the competence level of the teacher will be reflected in the competence of the student. Not everyone can be a coach.

I have done both and I am far far far away from a world beater. However I have coached someone far far better than myself and seen them have some success with that. I think coaching requires a far greater commitment on the part of the coach and player. And pool has almost no full time coaches. I think that you can look at people like Niels Feijen and Jasmin Ouschan and say that their results are due in large part to their coaches. Neils had an excellent teacher in Bert Kinister but to hone those skills he had a coach (I think).

To be a good teacher however requires study and a good understanding of what you want to teach and broad toolbox of HOW to teach it.

I gave lessons on jumping balls for years. It was part of my routine for selling them. I figured if I were going to sell them then I should be able to properly demonstrate them and teach others if need be.

In those many years and many shows I found that people are vastly different in their ability to grasp concepts or duplicate examples. So I had to learn to teach.

I developed many ways to show the same thing. I was shown several ways to teach the same thing by folks Jerry Olivier, Leslie Rogers, Chris McDaniel and others. I studied other teachers like Ned Morris, Tom Rossman and James Petersen who were teaching jumping in order to sell their cues. I was also quite gratified to see some of these folks using my methods to teach. The point is that while anyone can teach, their ability to effectively teach is dependent on their understanding of the subject matter and ability to communicate it. Someone who can't play can certainly teach but they must compensate with better communication to get the knowledge across to the student.
 

Pinocchio

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jb..............

I think that was an excellent post. I would think patience would be a great part of being an instructor, as well........
Pinocchio
 

vagabond

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
George Fels said:
I find it interesting that nobody has cited Hal Mix, who was consistently sought out by Nick Varner and other top players yet couldn't play a lick. GF[/QUOTE


Does Nick varner validate that claim by Hal Mix? Hal also claimed that he coached Robin Dodson.I am not disputing you.I am only curious.eventhough I was not impressed by Hal Mix as a coach/instructor but I was indeed impresssed by his capability of making long and difficult angle shots in his 80s.:cool:
 

APA7

STRAIGHT POOL SUPERMAN
Silver Member
Pinocchio said:
Just because somebody said you can't play you don't have to take everything so personal. I don't think this thread is about you. I'm sure there are instructors with a lot less game than you have. Scott my advice would be to keep positive an don't let everthing get to you. This would probably make you a better instructor an player. No Charge..........
Pinocchio

Brutal, but ..true :sorry: :eek:

Brian
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
It doesn't matter how much knowledge a person has, if a teacher can't effectively demonstrate advanced concepts, said teacher would be quite limited.

People learn in a variety of different ways, some by doing, some by listening, others by watching. A weak player is limited in so far as there is only so much they will be able to demonstrate. Therefore they will only be able to cater to two of the three types of learners.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
good point

Cameron Smith said:
It doesn't matter how much knowledge a person has, if a teacher can't effectively demonstrate advanced concepts, said teacher would be quite limited.

People learn in a variety of different ways, some by doing, some by listening, others by watching. A weak player is limited in so far as there is only so much they will be able to demonstrate. Therefore they will only be able to cater to two of the three types of learners.

An excellent point. We can learn through input from all five senses. Testing shows that the more senses we can engage learning the faster we learn and the better we retain the information. Associate the exact sound and feel of a perfect hit with no spin on the ball and you will know your hit is perfect well before you can see the path of the cue ball or it hits the object ball a few diamonds away.

Hu
 

The King

Here's Jimbo....
Silver Member
Well Scott Lee will be at my house tuesday on his way to the open... I'm excited and looking forward to playing him ... Whoops I mean learning from him.... ;) .... Of course I'm going to have to play him with me being the student and him the teacher I would certainly hope he can beat me ... But the most important thing is that I can learn from him and improve my game....
 

Colin Colenso

<-- My Kids
Silver Member
A very good player can be a terrible teacher.

I also think even the smartest instructor, if they have not reached a high level in all aspects of the game has certain shortcomings.

There are aspects of the game, such as knowing when a shot is going in which players may not be able to explain clearly but they can see when other players are hooking onto that ability.

Even for motivation, when an instructor tells you to put in X hours per day doing some tedious drill, it's more likely to motivate if it is coming from someone who has done that and who can testify as to the benefits of doing all that hard work.

There are different roles to be played by different people in the development of a player. If they're lucky they'll have a good coach and mentor. If they're not, they might end up combining the advice of a hundred know-it-alls until they just about go nuts.

My advice is learn what you need to know from the experts in those various fields and take that knowledge and learn to instruct yourself. Self reliance builds strong character and a hard efficient work ethic.

Colin
 
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smoooothstroke

JerLaw
Silver Member
basebal

Eric. said:
I love baseball analogies, and agree with what you are saying, except that minor leaguers are "mediocre players".

Minor league level players are very good baseball players, even at the single A level. A Single A level minor league player might be compared to a strong A level poolplayer. An AAA minor leaguer might be compared to pool's "open" player or shortstop, no?

Do you think a player that played at a very good High School level would be a good coach?


Eric

Yes.With baseball as long as they played on some level and were involved with the major leagues in some way.

With pool a person can learn a lot just watching high level play.Some people of course gain more from watching then others.
 

thebigdog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
smoooothstroke said:
Yes.With baseball as long as they played on some level and were involved with the major leagues in some way.

With pool a person can learn a lot just watching high level play.Some people of course gain more from watching then others.


A lot of great NFL coaches never even got close to playing in the NFL. Vince Lombardi, Bill Walsh, Bill Parcells, Bill Bellichick, Jon Gruden, Steve Mariucci to name a few, there are many more.

Charlie Weiss the head coach of Notre Dame and offensive coordinator for the Patriots for 3 of their Super Bowls did not even play college ball.

Another guy who didn't play college ball was Mark Mangino, the guy who has turned around the Kansas University football program.

I totally believe that someone does not need to be a great player to be a great teacher in any situation.
 

Scaramouche

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The blunt fact is that a student won't learn from an instructor he doesn't respect, won't be open to new ideas, won't consider valid the instructor's observations of technical flaws and proposed remedies, and may even be a disruptive influence in a group.

Instructors Randy G and Scott Lee use video to document technical flaws. Slow motion is a painful way to be disabused of your own high opinion of your skill:D not to mention ridicule from your peers, and it is impossible to deny the evidence. It helps overcome the attitude of the skeptical student.

You don't need an F1 driver to teach you to drive. You don't need Jean Claude Killy to teach you to ski. And Efren plays billiards, he doesn't teach, except by letting you see him in action. But if that level of performance is your requirement for you to believe what an instructor says, pony up the price.
 

craig1243

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
instuctors

everyones right to be certian,but a good instuctor,must be able to find students faults and to be able to help cure them,i am an a level player who has been teaching for 40 years,i have taught beginners and advanced,it also helps if student will listen ,to what u have to say.
 

poolpro

Not a pro
Silver Member
Neil said:
I might as well throw in my 2 cents worth. I fall in the category of one does not have to be a good player to be a good teacher. I think a lot of college professors would be lost if they had to go work in the field that they teach.

To be a good teacher, you have to have knowledge. The usual route to that is experience playing, but is not the only route. Now, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't go to someone that was a C player that only had a few years under their belt. What I am referring to is a veteran of the game.

Not necessarily as a player though. Most of the good instructors are not top players. That is because they spend their time teaching and learning, not playing.

I'll use Scott Lee as an example, since he posts here and is well known as a very good instructor. I'm no real good player, but I would have the best of it if Scott and I matched up. Yet, I would have no problem going to him for advanced lessons. (If I could afford it) He is more than qualified to teach pros.

He got there by being around the game and studying it. He knows what the moves are supposed to be, and how to teach them. But, put him on a table and he might have a hard time doing them. The sole reson for that is- you have to practice what you've learned to get good at it. He spends most of his time teaching, not playing.

How does he know his methods actually work then?? Again, by experience. He has enough students that will testify that they work.

To sum it up, one does have to have a lot of experience around the game, not necessarily playing the game, to be a good teacher.


Perfect summary of the topic. I agree with this 100%.

This topic always makes me think of an old algebra ( or was it calculus?) teacher I had. He was a whiz in math, but had NO teaching skills. If you asked him a question about one specific line in an equation, he would stop... look a little confused... and say " okay, let me show you again".. and then start a completely new equation and do it to completion. You were supposeed to just figure it out by watching him repeatedly solve problems over and over.

It would be like asking a pro how he makes a certain shot and achieves a specific position. And he just says : okay, I will demonstrate it again, pay attention." DEMONSTRATING IS NOT TEACHING!! If it was,we could all just sit back and watch the pros play and we would automatically become great players.

JW
 

Bigkahuna

It's Good For Your Game!
Silver Member
Can a good teacher teach a bad student?

craig1243 said:
everyones right to be certian,but a good instuctor,must be able to find students faults and to be able to help cure them,i am an a level player who has been teaching for 40 years,i have taught beginners and advanced,it also helps if student will listen ,to what u have to say.

Yes, what about the student. Can a bad teacher teach a good student? Can a bad student be taught by a good teacher? Which one will learn more?

I ask this because some people are like sponges. Some students will take a learned concept and really run with it to the point of mastering it to their benefit. Other students just try to learn things and if it did not work for them in the next match with out any mastery or honing of that skill they just abandon the concept.

I think for anybody that reads this you should work at being a good student of the game. If you go to college do you not have to learn how to be a good student?

In response to the original post I think I would rather have a teacher that knows the craft of teaching and understands advanced concepts of the game. Whether or not they can play I really do not care as long as they can figure out what I am doing wrong and know how to correct it.
 
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