Pool Lessons

lfigueroa said:
On the subject of "systems" in general, I remember reading in "McGoorty" about Hoppe and the diamond system outlined in his book. McGoortys says, "Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it... Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn't need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue a little and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? **** the system."

Lou Figueroa
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So your point is..... That systems are useless...... or what?

Sure there are players that have years of experience and have learned every move of the ball(s). The idea of systems is that by learning a system that works a student of the game can cut years off the learning process. That's what lessons and systems are designed to do.
 
Joe...I don't have to "toot my own horn"...my students speak for my abilities to communicate effectively with them. As far as instructor websites...if an instructor has one, it is listed on the BCA instructor list. Friendly, or not, I find your comments regarding this out of line. No university lists graduates names and numbers for anyone to contact. That would violate their privacy. Some names may be provided upon request (which is the same as with us). As far as my students' accomplishments...MANY have won local, state and regional titles; several have won national titles in BCA, Valley and APA, three of those were collegiate national champions. I have worked with several pros, and many other highly experienced players, who wish to remain anonymous. At their request, I will not divulge their identities. If that means you won't take a chance on a lesson with me, then so be it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JoeW said:
Thank you to those who stated that their students accomplishments are listed ontheir web sites. This is gratifying to hear. I suppose that one needs a listing of BCA certified instructors web sites. There probably is one but I don't have it.

I did visit a couple of instructors' web site and found testimonials but not accomplishments. I would suggest that those who can list their students accomplishments are furhter ahead in acquiring students.

I did find this site
http://www.bca-pool.com/cgi/site/play.cilist.cgi
but it does not give instructors web sites. It does however contain an email address for many so this could be the first approach. I suggest gentlemen, there is much to be done. And, please understand that I mean that in a very friendly way:o
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JoeW said:
What does it take to become a BCA certified instructor? I think the answer to this question could be important to several of us. ...
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The first level of BCA instructor training is the "Recognized" level. For an outline of what the 3-day course at the SFBA involves, get the course outline from www.sfbilliards.com.

The next level is "Certified". At the SFBA, the main part of the course is preparing the instructor candidate to give a 4-hour course to students who are at a fairly basic level. The candidate conducts that course on the final day of training for one or two beginning students.

As for student testimonials, I think they are about as reliable as testimonials for liver pills. The BCA has student feedback forms that are supposed to be completed after 2 or more hours of instruction, and the BCA office gets those forms, but to the best of my knowledge they do nothing more than count them each year. There could be a listing of the average of those evaluations, but since the instructor is the person who mails them to the BCA, the results might not be perfectly accurate.

I don't know of any "professional instruction" organization that monitors its members as closely as you suggest.

As far as following student progress, I think very few students would actually be willing to provide the info necessary, and that info would probably be unreliable. "I play three balls better since Bob gave me the secret of aiming!"

As far as how many champions a particular instructor turns out, I think you will find the percentages are tiny. I think that most great players who have had coaches get those coaches after they are already very good players. I think no instructor has taken someone from how to chalk to how to give an acceptance speech at the World Championships, with the possible exception of some father-son pairs (e.g. Walter Lindrum and Willie Hoppe). Also, the vast majority of people who take lessons have neither the natural ability nor the drive to be champions -- they are mostly normal people.
 
Thanks Bob. I checked out the syllabus. Nice work. I especially liked the exams. Seems to be the same type of thing we had when I took flying lessons for a private pilot's license. Great idea. BTW the FAA program is a great instructional program and model.

At my University we routinely give out the names of former and current (willing) students to anyone who asks. We do not ask students about their personal evaluation but only if they are willing to speak with applicants.

Non tenured faculty are required to participate in anonymous student evaluations every semester. Tenured faculty are evaluated about every other year or at least every five years (I forget the exact timing but it is one of these).

Results are submitted to the appropriate offices for compilation and distribution to the faculty member, chair of the Department, The Dean, and faculty personnel files. Student evaluations are a required part of faculty evaluation for promotion and tenure by all faculty during the promotion or tenure committee meetings.

Student accomplishments and program evaluations two or more years after graduation are collected and reviewed every seven or eight years through contacts with the students and are a part of the accreditation review process for university certification. Departmental reviews are on file in the University Library and have open access.

It is my understanding that our policies are very routine for public and most private universities across the country.

BTW some faculty are not granted tenure and or not promoted based on student evaluations. Student comments are a major part of life and survival in a public university. Small plug, Youngstown State is a great school.

Without access to this type of information I would be hesitant to recommend any instructor whose work I had not personally evaluated in some fashion.
 
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Joe W,
I found that Scott Lee's web site had quite a bit of info regarding what he has done and where he has been. Also, I did a search on him and on the schools, and found a number of threads.

The BCA does have a list of their instructors, but that seems to be about it. Hopefully they will improve their ability to promote the BCA instructor program in the near future.
 
referrals

Scott Lee said:
JoeW...It is up to you if you want testamonials from any particular instructor's students. YOU have to ask...I have listed many on my website, for anyone to see and contact. Many more have made mention of their positive experiences here and on other pool forums.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Joe, I can easily understand why instructors do not divulge much in the way of student information. While this subject doesn't exactly qualify as along the lines of something like attourney-client privelage, they aren't exactly publishing a phone book either. I have taken several lessons from Scott Lee, and am not afraid to say so. If you really need a testamonial that badly, then PM me. Otherwise, what you are doing appears to be trying to gain information that you actually have no right to have. Frankly, my personal life and information is exactly what it is, MINE.
 
The comments I have made here are about any instructional program. They were not and are not about any one instructor.

I am of the opinion that teaching produces a product. That product can and should be evaluated to improve upon the results. The outcome of teaching can be evaluated by the consumers who do not have to blindly accept what is stated in advertising.

I think that some, not all, people are willing to discuss what they have learned. And I do think that it is encumbent upon any good teacher to continue to improve upon his or her methods. It is commonly accepted, evidenced by policy decisions at various schools, that the best way to do this is with an evaluation of student progress which can be accomplished and published in any of several ways.

Adult students who take a pre - post examinations do not own the results of the examinations. Students can reasonably expect that their individual results will not be given to any other person without their permission. However, aggragated or grouped data are not a matter of privilege if an individual's identity is not an issue.
 
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With Fran Crimi as our new leader, I think most all of JoeW's thoughts will be available on our also new website(soon to be functional).

JoeW has brought up the same questions I have been asked for twenty years. The BCA Instructors are standing at the threashold of a new era.....SPF=randyg
 
JoeW said:
[...]
Non tenured faculty are required to participate in anonymous student evaluations every semester. Tenured faculty are evaluated about every other year or at least every five years (I forget the exact timing but it is one of these).

Results are submitted to the appropriate offices for compilation and distribution to the faculty member, chair of the Department, The Dean, and faculty personnel files. Student evaluations are a required part of faculty evaluation for promotion and tenure by all faculty during the promotion or tenure committee meetings.
[...]
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We do this (student ratings of instruction) for all instructors tenured or not at the end of every course.

I heard there is a recent study (haven't actually read it) in which the researchers asked students to evaluate the instructor after the first 10 minutes of the course (or maybe it's the first class period). These early ratings apparently correlate remarkably with the end-of-course ratings of the same instructor.

I don't know what that means.

(1)It could mean that the student ratings are bogus and are far too influenced by superficial nonsense.

Or

(2) it could mean that students are remarkably perceptive and pick up meaningful cues quickly.

Sounds like I'm being facetious here, but believe it or not I think while (1) is certainly at problem at some level, (2) may be not far off the mark.

Suppose a bunch of AZ members watched a video clip of an amatuer player getting up from the chair, examining the table, getting into position, and stroking a cue --ONCE. Then, without even seeing the results of the shot, the observers were asked to guess whether this is an APA 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or an APA 7.

My guess is the results would be pretty good.

Evaluating instructors might be a little like this. A student might be able to tell pretty quickly whether the instructor tends to present cogent ideas, communicates clearly, and has some enthusiasm for the material--or whether it's going to be a VERY long semester ;-)
 
I'm not sure of the purpose of joe's quest here... do we just want consumers to have a consumer-reports like resource to judge the effectiveness of one teacher vs. another?

Or is it more like an accountability thing... where the teacher is giving a service and whatever you're paying for can't be picked up and held in your hand... so it should be quantified some other way so that people know that when they fork out the cash, they're getting something measurable in exchange?

Joe, if you're saying that you expect to see "such and such student went on to win this and that tournament... that's already in place for a lot of instructors. Look at this bert kinister page for example: http://www.seyberts.com/instructional/videos/bert/videos.htm

I don't think a formal system of following up on students, measuring progress, and publicly reporting the results can be done in a fair and accurate way, for reasons others have mentioned, plus it sounds like a bureaucratic hassle.

- it's a pain to judge your improvement all that precisely. Three months later you miss less and win more, but nobody really wants to keep track of missable balls made, shape missed, games won or lost, or whatever... a player may know for a certainty he plays better but can't quantify it.

- Some students only learn to beat their buddies or to gamble better, they have no tournament results to point to, and they can't publicly post their gambling successes, so again it's hard to quantify.

- An instructor can be perfectly good but get a streak of students who simply lack motivation or are willing to settle for being mediocre.

- By the same token, an instructor could be just decent, but lucks into a naturally talented, near-pro level student (niels feijen?) and get more credit and business than he deserves.

I think this is probably an ain't broke/don't fix it situation, website efforts notwithstanding. The market is taking care of this one, the rep and word of mouth and referrals are bringing the cream to the top. If anyone is still leery, they can just fork out the cash for instructors who are also proven excellent players - i.e. hire tony or earl or allison.
 
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Based on my 30 odd years teaching, I think that students are remarkably perceptive. However, there is a need to account for global impressions, students' prior expectations, and students' ability to evaluate on the basis of content.

We routinely distinguish between a student's perception of the course and their percetion of the instructor as one way to evaluate course and instructor as seperate things.
 
lfigueroa said:
On the subject of "systems" in general, I remember reading in "McGoorty" about Hoppe and the diamond system outlined in his book. McGoortys says, "Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it... Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn't need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue a little and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? **** the system."

Lou Figueroa
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Hey Lou,

You're right about what they say of the oldtimers not using systems but like instructors pinpointing areas of improvements and eliminating bad habits, systems are also a fast track to get to a high level of play, where they can, become insignificant. Some great players use a system for every shot like Ceulemans and others shoot or shot instinctively like Sang Lee and the folks you mentioned. Knowledge and use of systems help eliminate the Stiffs. Systems also can be used as a check on your fundamentals and the table. Systems do work if you know them well enough. If you miss a shot, correctly using a system, is the system wrong? The table playing wrong? Bad Stroke? CB contact point issue? All this can be checked out and adjustments made if you have some systems as a reference point.
 
CreeDo, I seek to know that money was well spent. There are various ways to accomplish this. I suspect that we all check out the quality and reputation of a $300.00 pool cue before we buy it. Reputation is useful and most people say to pick up the cue and try before you buy. Now that makes sense to me.

I maintain the pool instruction is a commodity and that before one spends money there is a need to have a way to evaluate the purchase. Reputation is only one way.

To some extent I am looking for something more efficient than a "free" lesson or the encumberances of a governmental nightmare.

I give examples of what has been done, what can be done as merely a place to start. These are of course merely models, goals, and examples of what can be done -- not what should be done. I suspect that there are other ideas and merely am trying to initiate a conversation that will perhaps help to improve the field.
 
instructors

JoeW said:
CreeDo, I seek to know that money was well spent. There are various ways to accomplish this. I suspect that we all check out the quality and reputation of a $300.00 pool cue before we buy it. Reputation is useful and most people say to pick up the cue and try before you buy. Now that makes sense to me.

I maintain the pool instruction is a commodity and that before one spends money there is a need to have a way to evaluate the purchase. Reputation is only one way.

To some extent I am looking for something more efficient than a "free" lesson or the encumberances of a governmental nightmare.

I give examples of what has been done, what can be done as merely a place to start. These are of course merely models, goals, and examples of what can be done -- not what should be done. I suspect that there are other ideas and merely am trying to initiate a conversation that will perhaps help to improve the field.
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You are wrong Joe. Pool instruction is not a commodity, it a service. Much like going to the doctor or taking your car to the mechanic. Once you either make an appointment to have work done or contract for that service, you are then obligated to pay. If you really are this paranoid about not getting quality instruction from a certified instructor, then stop asking for the moon and the stars. Remember, they are certified for a reason. Reason being they most likely know damned well what they are doing, and how to do it well.
 
mr.jesdeh2o said:
Over the last three months, I have said that I have been getting lessons from Little Joe. In the last three months, my knowledge and skill in pool has increased tremendously. His systems for kicking and cueball knowledge are truly one of a kind. A lot of these BCA certified instructors teach fundamentals. He teaches knowledge within the game of pool. I have never been to a BCA certified instructor and I never will. They do not teach let alone know what he knows. What I mean by cueball knowledge is that he can teach someone how to move the cueball around the table with exactness. I would have to say that being exact is the most important thing in the game of pool. Being exact is what seperates the good from the best. As you know being exact comes with time practice and experience. Little Joe can provide the tools needed to help someone become exact. I definitely will say that this is by far a better time and money investment then going to a BCA certified instructor who just teaches fundamentals. Knowledge and exactness wins games.
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It sounds to me like you're making an assumption about BCA certified instructors. If you do not have first-hand knowledge, how can you make a statement like, "They do not teach let alone know what he knows."? I'm not defending BCA instructors, but I am challenging your statement just on the merrit of what you're saying.

Personally, I do believe in getting some coaching in any type of sport/game. I have had a lessons by a BCA certified instructor and Buddy Hall. I actually thought the lesson by the BCA instructor was pretty good because he video taped me and when you see yourself making errors, it's pretty enlightening. Buddy's lesson was excellent but it is difficult for anyone to replicate his flawless stroke! This is the problem for pros teaching, only they can do what they do. Can you imagine Efren trying to teach someone how to send the cueball 4 rails and land within a fraction of an inch of where he wants it to be?
 
Assuming you choose a good instructor:

What you get out of a lesson depends on what you do AFTER the lesson.

Randy G tells his students not to play for three weeks, only practice the mother drills.

Naturally, I didn't believe this, and played the day after returning home from pool school. Made balls. even found I was using S.A.M. - FOR ABOUT A RACK AND A HALF. Then I reverted to old habits.

Then I started practicing the drills nearly daily. Added a bit of cue ball spins and position

In about six weeks my play suddenly took a quantum jump - longer runs, better control of the cue ball, and no letdown during the match.
 
Scaramouche said:
Assuming you choose a good instructor:

What you get out of a lesson depends on what you do AFTER the lesson.

Randy G tells his students not to play for three weeks, only practice the mother drills.

Naturally, I didn't believe this, and played the day after returning home from pool school. Made balls. even found I was using S.A.M. - FOR ABOUT A RACK AND A HALF. Then I reverted to old habits.

Then I started practicing the drills nearly daily. Added a bit of cue ball spins and position

In about six weeks my play suddenly took a quantum jump - longer runs, better control of the cue ball, and no letdown during the match.
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JOEW: A student speaks out......SPF=randyg

PS:Scaramouche, shame on you:-)
 
Ok your right, commodity versus service and I will avoid a semantic argument. I do the same as a consumer of services. Any physician that cannot tell me how many heart valves he has replaced and what the success ratio is does not get my money. Note the professional provider is duty bound to truthfully and honestly answer these types of questions. I did sit on a professional grievance committee for my local psychological association many years ago and know that we do in fact police the membership and routinely investigate complaints. The same can be said for physicians, attorneys and other professionals.

Board certification and licensure requirements are indeed much more stringent for professional providers. In my profession, not atypical, it begins with four years of graduate education and includes a two year internship for about six years of post college education (one year may be pre-doctoral). Before any unsupervised practice is allowed the candidate must complete national oral and written licensure examinations and has yearly continuing educational requirements. License holders pay for the licensing board which insures professional conduct and behavior. As many are aware malpractice insurance is expensive.

Given a three day school to join the certification process and begin teaching, pool instructors do not rise to that level of discourse. It would be good if they did, but even I think that truly professional certification is asking too much. It would probably begin with a degree in coaching agugmented by sub-specialties in engineering and psychology.

MikePage has an implied suggestion that could be incorporated. If it is true that students can reasonably determine the quality of instruction after ten minutes or one class session, it follows that the personal teaching competence of an instructor could be evaluated via a CD or internet display on something like Youtube. A simple list of the syllabus, such as Bob Jewett links to in a previous post, would provide some information about what a pool instructor teaches.

I think that my argument stands whether we are discussing products or services. Accountability is the name of the game.

Isn't there a fellow in Australia who teaches back hand english? I believe he is an olympic shot put coach and apparently is well trained in teaching methods. Now there is a good example and he is also on YouTube or some such. From what I have seen and given his credentials, I would not mind a lesson or two from him.

Don't misunderstand me here, I am not putting anyone down. I merely think he is a good example of a highly trained and forthcoming individual.

If I seem relentless in the pursuit of my argument, how about a pool match? Just kidding with a high run of about 26 I am really not all that good.
 
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