pool needs a face lift
- Thread starter mark tadd
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I learned to play with all balls spotting up, but Texas Express came about very shortly after and everyone adopted the new rules very quickly. My dad said the same thing when the rules had changed. I think you are probobly right, but thats probobly why it became popular it gives the lesser player a better chance.mark tadd said:i think 9 ball needs to go back to 2 foul rule all balls spot. texas 9 ball rules have ruined the game for good players. any comments
mark tadd said:i think 9 ball needs to go back to 2 foul rule all balls spot. texas 9 ball rules have ruined the game for good players. any comments
I would agree, Mark but it will never happen. It was originally done to shorten the game for TV and going back to rolling out when hooked certainly would lessen the miniscule amout of pool we see on TV now.
I think we should ditch 9-ball as a whole and go to a modified 15 ball rotation, no jump cues. Would add alot more of the all around skill shots like banks, kicks, masse, ect... back into the game. It would also allow the cream to rise to the top as no longer is running racks an easy thing to do, both players would get to the table quite afew times in a match and safety battles and the tougher shots would take the place of the big break and tic tac toe outs we see now. I also think the public would accept a game that uses all the balls in a rack instead of 9 of them and the standard triangle rack. I think the non-use of all the balls and diamond racked balls has not helped the non-pool playing public or the casual pool players accept the game as a spectator sport. 9-ball scares away the truely beginner people, they dont want to deal with racking the balls in a diamond with a triangle rack, the players in the bar dont want to waste 6 balls every rack on the coin ops, they dont want a game that can end on a single shot either, they want to play games out, not pay a buck just to see a 9-ball break. 15 ball rotation, winner breaks, a point per a ball, called ball. It is simple, it would be playable by the general public on coin ops, it would bring back the impressive shots, it would bring in scoring for stats such as running 56 points in a row (which would be huge), scoring is something the public like, they dont care about Joe winning 9-6, they would be more impressed with Joe winning 90-54.
If I was rich beyond my wildest dreams I would set up a tour based around that type of game and put alot of added money into it to atract all the top players, TV, and sponsers. Within 5-10 years it would be the most popular game in pool IMO and this sport would be taking off and the top players in the game would be stars.
If I was rich beyond my wildest dreams I would set up a tour based around that type of game and put alot of added money into it to atract all the top players, TV, and sponsers. Within 5-10 years it would be the most popular game in pool IMO and this sport would be taking off and the top players in the game would be stars.
Celtic said:
Jose Parica told me that when he lived in the Philippines, he and his peers played mostly 15 ball rotation. The equipment at that time in the Philippines was horrible, warped tables, dead rails, uneven balls, three legs on the table longer than a fourth, ripped cloth, et cetera.
When he came to the States and played 9 ball rotation on pristine equipment, Aramith balls rolling evenly on mechanically correct tables, he thought he had died and gone to heaven. It seemed like a piece of cake. Explains why there are so many champions from Philippines. They learned the hard way.
Relating to the two-foul/push-out rules from yesteryear, Keith McCready says that the guys on the East Coast couldn't beat the guys on the West Coast, and so they changed the rules (the world according to Keith
).After hearing about Joe Tucker's strategies on racking and breaking, I am beginning to think 10-ball or any other game, such as 15 ball rotation, would be the way to go to showcase a player's true skills set. Today, 9-ball is a game of luck, and the break is 50 percent of the game. I don't think seeing a guy run a 6-pack means one player's shooting capabilities are higher than his opponent. John Q. Public, though, doesn't know the difference.
Currently, I am amazed at how some players are able to rig the rack and make side balls fly in every single time. I have actually had a tournament director comment to me that if a player doesn't check the rack and it is rigged, it is the player's fault who doesn't know better. Those in the know are very well aware of who the "best" in the business are when it comes to racking, and it is one of those dirty little pool secrets. When I see players arguing over the rack, getting heated at times, it gives me pause. It is true the breaking player should receive a "fair" rack, but in this day and age, there are so many gimmicks out there relating to the rack that every time I see the side ball fly in the same corner pocket over and over and over again, I am skeptical.
Buddy Hall offered an opinion not too long ago that maybe a loser-breaks format would suffice and eliminate some of the luck in 9-ball. Another veteran player expressed the desire to have the 9-ball spotted up if it went in on the break. These are just opinions at this point, but maybe could be food for thought when it comes to the lucky game of 9-ball, as it currently exists.
Allen Hopkins' Skins Billiards format is an interesting one, a little different than the norm. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds, November 19-20, in Atlantic City, NJ. One thing for sure, it is fresh, innovative, and new, and the $130,000 total prize purse ain't too shabby either!
JAM
JAM said:
Theres the title for your book right there Keith!
JAM said:
Agreed. 10 ball is better, it makes the game a little harder and changes the break up quite alot so it is tougher to put racks together. I just dont think 10 ball goes quite far enough, but an improvment for sure. Now 15 ball rotation with single points for each ball (rather then the number on the ball being the point count as I think it is played in the Phillippines) would work great, even the top players would have a tough time putting racks together.
Plus then we can use the sardo racks, which are a great thing if not for the 9-ball rack and it's weakness against the players when a sardo was used. With 15 balls I would imagine the sardo rack would be both fair, and in 15 ball rotation would require a pretty powerful break to get maximum ball seperation and a chance to run out.
You have no idea how much I wish we would lose 9-ball as the pro game...
Celtic said:
That's got possibilities. I kind of like "All In," considering the current state of affairs. Pool is full of excitement, and there is no better high in the world than running a rack as a player or witnessing a player when he's "on."
Celtic said:
I hear ya', Celtic. In my humble opinion, I think pool needs a major facelift on television. It needs a personality to attract a new audience, not necessarily one individual pool player, but the tone of the broadcast needs to be exciting and thrilling. When I watch pool on TV, the style of play is almost robotic, and even I change the channel after a few rounds on some occasions. If it is boring to me and I understand the game, imagine how it must be for folks not familiar with the sport.
The commentators are key. Just because a guy is a great pool player, it does not mean that he has the correct skills needed for television broadcasting. It is a whole different animal, and one which requires real-time thinking, ability to punt when there are mechanical difficulties, and a strong knowledge of the sport and all of its participants. Remember, these commentators are not targeting us pool enthusiasts. They are, hopefully, attempting to bring in a new audience to elevate the sport, which in turn will be appealing to prospective sponsors.
I enjoyed watching the recent ladies' pool event on TV when Julie Kelly won the Canadian Cuetec championship. I've met and talked with Julie on numerous occasions and never knew that she used to be a shepherd in Ireland before she came to the States. She had over 100 sheep and knew each one of their names, and when she made the decision to become a pool player, she had to sell off her herd, which was a personal hardship for her.
Allen Hopkins was commentating and shared this factoid about Julie Kelly with the viewing audience. It made me look at Julie in a whole different light, realizing how much she sacrificed to be a professional pool player. Talk about passion for the game, this is one lady that I would like to see excel here in the States. It is the personal interest stories that get my attention.
For the majority of players on TV, even though most of us here on AzBilliards know some things about them, they are an unknown entity to the rest of the non-pool-playing audience. Personal interest stories, interviews and the like, are a plus.
Because there is a multitude of pocket billiards games, 9-ball seems to be the easiest one to understand for the layperson. Therein lies the problem and why 9-ball continues to dominate the tournament trail. If somebody could come up with the answer, things may take a turn for the better. I remain optimistic and hope for the best because I'm in this racket now, for better or for worse. And I ain't quitting my daytime job any time soon!
JAM
Loser breaks. If a ball is pocketed the first action must be a safety. Push out still in effect but the first action following the push for the breaker if the incoming player elects not to shoot must be a safe. Strong break a thing of the past.
kind of out of the box
kind of out of the box
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how about this, call all shots, no 9 ball breaks . and get this call your next shot, meaning if you are on the one and call it in a certain pocket you must call the two ball in a designated poket before you shoot the one. if you get out of line on the two you still must make it in the pocket you chose before shooting the one. so you must either play safe or make a miracle shot, and still have to call the three in a certain pocket and get shape on it. its tougher than it seems specially if you get out of line. to make it real tough call your next two shots so you must basically call three shots in a certain pocket before you even shoot. then all cue ball experts will never sleep under pool tables again lolthebigdog said:
OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
The Only Thing Pool Needs!
THE ONLY THING POOL NEEDS - is a MAJOR SPONSER!
One that has nothing to do with pool but just wants to get it's product & or service to the professional or serious pool player.
BUDWEISER - COORS, - CINGULAR - NEXTEL, - CHEVROLET - FORD, - HOME DEPOT - LOWES, ETC., ETC.
Notice the competitive nature in all these potential sponsors? That is why one of them will invest. To get the jump on the competition. To find that NEW venue that will prosper. THINK ON-LINE POKER!
Of course none of this can or will happen until the primadonnas of our sport are willing to put forth their time & effort to promote. I remember back in the late 70's & early 80's when this was tried, the primadonnas wanted to be compensated for ANY time & or effort BEFORE doing anything. They are almost all now giving instructions, selling junk or maybe playing in a weeklong tourney to earn 6 or 8 K's. The women are the only ones to prosper from pool and it is because they were and are willing to help promote & unify themselves.
THINK JUSTICE!
TY & GL
THE ONLY THING POOL NEEDS - is a MAJOR SPONSER!
One that has nothing to do with pool but just wants to get it's product & or service to the professional or serious pool player.
BUDWEISER - COORS, - CINGULAR - NEXTEL, - CHEVROLET - FORD, - HOME DEPOT - LOWES, ETC., ETC.
Notice the competitive nature in all these potential sponsors? That is why one of them will invest. To get the jump on the competition. To find that NEW venue that will prosper. THINK ON-LINE POKER!
Of course none of this can or will happen until the primadonnas of our sport are willing to put forth their time & effort to promote. I remember back in the late 70's & early 80's when this was tried, the primadonnas wanted to be compensated for ANY time & or effort BEFORE doing anything. They are almost all now giving instructions, selling junk or maybe playing in a weeklong tourney to earn 6 or 8 K's. The women are the only ones to prosper from pool and it is because they were and are willing to help promote & unify themselves.
THINK JUSTICE!
TY & GL
mark tadd said:i think 9 ball needs to go back to 2 foul rule all balls spot. texas 9 ball rules have ruined the game for good players. any comments
Comments? Adapt - Accept - or - don't play 9 ball anymore.
Pool, especially 9 ball is ever-changing and evolving. If you don't like 9 ball, play 1 hole or banks, or something that suits you. I have always thought that the true test at the table is in 14.1 Continuous - that's my personal opinion, mainly because that is what I grew up with.
A great 9 ball player will use the rules (any version) to their advantage. The trick is not to allow slight rule changes to effect your attitude. It's 10% what happens at the table and 90% is how you react to it. If you don't enjoy the game, don't play it. Find something that you do enjoy and run with it.
Good Luck & God Bless
JAM said:
In regards to the book, how's it going? Any ETA yet?
mark tadd said:i think 9 ball needs to go back to 2 foul rule all balls spot. texas 9 ball rules have ruined the game for good players. any comments
Funny you should say that. I've been saying that for at least a few years now. Even if it didn't go back to the 2 foul rule (which would be even better), at least going back to where balls spot and it's behind the line after a fouled break would be a huge improvement.
Rolling/pushing out after every shot would eliminate the need to play safe. Thats how I learned to play back in the late 80's. Also with 7-ball rules attached like on espn, where if the player at the table doesnt run out the incomming player gets ball-in-hand. 10-ball another good solution. Everyones ideas are real good. However, everyone thinks too much about TV. If tv was so important, where's the money from all of these televised matches?
Scrap TV, pool doesn't need it. The only matches I want to see on tv are the gambling matches between 2 players with the money being exchanged. If we can have poker on tv with the money dumped on the table, why not pool. Otherwise get it off tv.
Scrap TV, pool doesn't need it. The only matches I want to see on tv are the gambling matches between 2 players with the money being exchanged. If we can have poker on tv with the money dumped on the table, why not pool. Otherwise get it off tv.
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breakup said:
Wow, very interesting, breakup. Of course, the luck factor would just come down to whether the person who breaks leaves a good safety. Still too much luck.
How about taking your idea to an even greater extreme? The first shot after the break must be a push-out, regardless of whose turn it is. Push-outs tend to create neutral positions in which neither player has an edge.
mark tadd said:
That right there would be the most simple fix. 9-ball spots off the break, every shot must be called. I just got finished watching a match between Alex and Yang from DC++ and Alex tries a 9-ball combo, misses it, and it goes cross corner, through another ball, and into the opposite corner. That fluke led to about 3 more wins for Alex.
I dont think it would be enough, even without luck the pro's are still putting out too much offensive power. They also have enough control that it is extremely rare for them to take the plan B pocket so calling 1 ball ahead would be limited use, plus it would be tough to track for the crowd and opponent. For the game to be successful it must be hard enough that BOTH players get to the table plenty of times so that the best player is determined. A player who breaks and runs a whole set may not even be the stronger player, the other player may have done the exact same thing if he had ever got a shot, that is a lame sport.
I would recommend anyone to try simple 1 point per a ball 15 ball rotation and see how it works. It allows for small tournaments to have 30, or 45 points per a set, pro's can play to 75 or 90 points per a match. The game is totally workable like that. It is hard, pro players would not break and run many tables. It is easy to understand for all players. It uses ALL the balls in a rack which IS important if we want our game to succeed as a spectator sport for Joe Public.
http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=5313&highlight=rotation
Was a major thread I started not so long ago, same thing as this pretty much, 9-ball is dead and the longer we try to hold onto it the more the sport is on hold from being great, if we change *RIGHT NOW* in 5-10 years we can have the new game flourishing, well known, and played by the pro's, if we spend another 5-10 years hanging onto the dying thing that is 9-ball then we are looking 10-20 years down the road before a new game can take off. 9-ball will fail in the long run, how long are we going to sit here and beat a dead horse?
It is you people in charge of tours and organizations that have the chance to fix this. Mark Griffin, Mike Janis, Charlie Williams, whoever out there runs a tour, you have a chance to take the step and make the new game, simply take your 9-ball tournament, advertise that a new game is going to be used in the tournament and *HERE* are the rules. First annual BCA "Full Rack Rotation" tournament taking the place of the BCA 9-ball, what a better way to get a new game out there. You get alot of players to that tourney, you have a huge crowd of amature players there to watch and learn the game and take it back across the country and abroad, it is the perfect testing ground for the new game. That would be the BIGGEST thing Charlie could do for the game of pool, it would be huge and help the game of pocket billiards, I have no doubt it would work and take off. Lets not spend the next 10-20 years playing a game that is extinct in 50 years.l
mark tadd said:
Personally I am not a fan of call shot 9ball, well, Im not a big fan of 9ball anyway, but if I have to play it I dont like call shot. This doesnt take the luck out of 9ball, it may get rid of slopping balls in and getting out, but there is much more to it than that when playing a game in which you only have one ball to shoot at.
Someone made a comment a while back (cant remember who) that really hit the nail on the head, "are more games won by someone lucking a ball in and running out or by someone missing a ball and leaving the opponent bad or hooked?". IMO alot more games are won because someone gets lucky on a leave instead of getting lucky and having a ball go in the wrong pocket.
I think there are several games out there that are better than 9ball, but it has become popular for some reason, so people must like it. But to try to punish someone for slopping in a ball while still rewarding a lucky leave just doesnt seem right.
I know lucky leaves is involved in all the games, its just much more prominate in a "one ball on" game.
trophycue said:
How do you figure that? Pool gets practically no coverage on TV, has no money, and gets few-->no fans in the seats. Yeah, the world really has really "chosen" 9-Ball. If anything the world has chosen against 9-ball and now it is up to us to act.