Pool rooms becoming extinct

Love The Game

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I play pool to have fun, but also to compete... My local room has old Gold Crowns with shimmed pockets. Hard to make a ball down the rail straight in. Pockets are 4.25 inches and the tables play tough.

Last night I watched a guy and his lady friend struggle for 30 minutes to clear a rack of 8 ball. They were not inclined to play a second game. This is a player's room, but they want to grow their biz.

Here is my question: are 9 foot tables too tough (especially with shimmed pockets) for the average playing public?

In my opinion, bar boxes with the large pockets are what average people want to play on, just so that they can make balls. Pool rooms with 9 foot tables and tight equipment are starting to become relics. Pool is a great game but it is not easy, especially on tight equipment.

I just want the great game to prosper and be fun for the future players. Opinions appreciated.
 
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My uncle took me to a pool room in KC when I was about 8 years old. The sounds and smell have never left my mind.
 
You can't have a players room anymore. First, there are too few to support a "players" poolroom. They are notoriously "broke" because most play pool instead of working. You can however put a couple of tables aside for them.

Bob
 
I play pool to have fun, but also to compete... My local room has old Gold Crowns with shimmed pockets. Hard to make a ball down the rail straight in. Pockets are 4.25 inches and the tables play tough.

Last night I watched a guy and his lady friend struggle for 30 minutes to clear a rack of 8 ball. They were not inclined to play a second game. This is a player's room, but they want to grow their biz.

Here is my question: are 9 foot tables too tough (especially with shimmed pockets) for the average playing public?

In my opinion, bar boxes with the large pockets are what average people want to play on, just so that they can make balls. Pool rooms with 9 foot tables and tight equipment are starting to become relics. Pool is a great game but it is not easy, especially on tight equipment.

I just want the great game to prosper and be fun for the future players. Opinions appreciated.

First of all (a little nitpick), shims are applied to rails and cushions, not pockets. (I say this, because you use the phrase "shimmed pockets.")

Second, while shimming is a common practice, it's not what makes pockets "play tough" -- rather, the "cut" of the pockets do. I think it's entirely possible to have a table with tight but "accepting" pockets, as long as the pocket cut allows the pocketing of a ball that enters the pocket's aperture.

And, to be honest, the best practice to making pockets tighter is to extend the rail/cushion into the pocket, not by shimming it. RKC (realkingcobra) has posted much of his work in this regard to these forums, and it makes sense to extend the rail and cushion into the pocket, not by installing a shim that pushes the cushion further into the table's playing surface.

What does this have to do with the playing public? I think certain rooms have lost sight of how to market their business to new customers. The room you describe above is a good example. Rooms and room owners fixated with what they perceive to be problems amongst their more experienced clientele (i.e. pool room regulars), think they have to "shim, shim, shim" those tables because "they're too easy." They like to advertise, "we have 'double'- and even 'triple'-shimmed tables!" Big whoopie. They're going in the wrong direction for a couple of reasons, not just the technically-correct reasons I describe above. For one thing, I agree with you that having shimmed tables with pocket cuts that jar and hang up balls (especially on a Gold Crown) is not the way to go. It alienates a lot of new customers that would normally warm-up to the sport.

I think a room owner has to have a selection of equipment available that fits the needs of a wide range of customers. Not this "one size fits all" or "you can have any color you want, as long as it's black" mode of thinking.

I remember growing up and going to a poolroom nearby, the gentleman that owned it asked me if I've ever played before, and I said, "a little." He put me on a table that was generous, and the experience of successfully pocketing balls set the hook into me that will last my entire life. Nowadays, I like to play on the tightest tables available (12-foot snooker tables), but I remembered my roots and what set the hook -- a pool room owner that was knowledgeable about "customer experience," and I will never forget it.

-Sean
 
I think pool goes through cycles. These cycles don't necessarily coincide with out individual lifespans. :)

Anyway, I used to own a room, while I was fortunate to have a good rent and stable clientele, it was obvious to me that watching neophytes come in to play, I could see they were uncomfortable.

Unlike visiting a bowling alley when they couldn't roll a ball down the ally, it's almost out of place to jump up and down, laugh and scream in a pool room. Rather, making a miscue or otherwise unable to hold a stick, they become uneasy and it creates an uncomfortable feeling that they don't want to experience a second time. Next time it will be bowling or miniature golf.

Having said that, I think the morphing of pool to small tables will provide a greater customer base who eventually may want to play on larger tables, and maybe it will just go full circle.

Marketing for pool sucks. I see on True TV ridiculous shows like Towing, Pawn Shops, Searching for treasures in storage rooms ... I can't believe people watch this shit.

They need a "Roadman" show following a pool hustler across country challenging the room's best "non-pro".

The show pre arranges visits to rooms with players willing to compete. They get paid by show sponsors, and the winner gets to continue the journey to make more money, and the loser gets a ride back home.

Waddia think of that. :D


edit ... hey I may be on to something here .... LOL ... this material may not be used without the expressed written consent of it's inventor ... ME. :)
 
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To tight

Gandy made tables with big pockets for years and everyboby loved having them in the thier pool halls because people could have fun on them. Buddy Hall has never liked those overly tight pockets, he says that the game should not come down to who shoots the beFirst of all (a little nitpick), shims are applied to rails and cushions, not pockets. (I say this, because you use the phrase "shimmed pockets.")

P.S. shimming can make the pockets play tough if they are not installed right or if the aomunt of shims used makes the pocket to small for some shots.
 
I think a room owner has to have a selection of equipment available that fits the needs of a wide range of customers. Not this "one size fits all" or "you can have any color you want, as long as it's black" mode of thinking.

-Sean

I used to love Boston Billiards in Gaithersburg Md - had nice gold crowns 4.5x9 and one table with triple shimmed pockets and one billiards table, which had its share of loyal customers.

Champions in Frederick has 4.5x9 table and 4 baby 7 footers. The 4.5x9 tables are a little tight, but everyone seems to like them. So, in this case, one size does fit all for the big tables. And so, I disagree with you slightly because the banger APA league players don't sit there and say - this table is a little tight and I don't think I will play here. As a matter of fact, they have no freakn idea what tight tables are - all they want to do is drink and play pool. And the tables are just tight enough to satisfy the best players, including Mike Sigel. But, like Buddy Hall, Mike wishes that tables in pro events would have bigger pockets like in the old days.
 
They need a "Roadman" show following a pool hustler across country challenging the room's best "non-pro".

The show pre arranges visits to rooms with players willing to compete. They get paid by show sponsors, and the winner gets to continue the journey to make more money, and the loser gets a ride back home.

Waddia think of that. :D


edit ... hey I may be on to something here .... LOL ... this material may not be used without the expressed written consent of it's inventor ... ME. :)

I dont know how it would go over with the general public, maybe great, but I absolutely love the idea! :thumbup: Why hasnt someone started this already with all the reality shows out there. I think it would sure be great for growing interest in the sport and getting more folks to pick up a stick when they are at a bar and start hitting some balls.
 
Gandy made tables with big pockets for years and everyboby loved having them in the thier pool halls because people could have fun on them. Buddy Hall has never liked those overly tight pockets, he says that the game should not come down to who shoots the beFirst of all (a little nitpick), shims are applied to rails and cushions, not pockets. (I say this, because you use the phrase "shimmed pockets.")

P.S. shimming can make the pockets play tough if they are not installed right or if the aomunt of shims used makes the pocket to small for some shots.


Hmm.... a little picky with the semantics ... no? Anyway, according to your way of explaining it, whouldn't "The amount of shims used make the rails too long,and not the pockets too small?" :scratchhead:
 
I play pool to have fun, but also to compete... My local room has old Gold Crowns with shimmed pockets. Hard to make a ball down the rail straight in. Pockets are 4.25 inches and the tables play tough.

Last night I watched a guy and his lady friend struggle for 30 minutes to clear a rack of 8 ball. They were not inclined to play a second game. This is a player's room, but they want to grow their biz.

Here is my question: are 9 foot tables too tough (especially with shimmed pockets) for the average playing public?

In my opinion, bar boxes with the large pockets are what average people want to play on, just so that they can make balls. Pool rooms with 9 foot tables and tight equipment are starting to become relics. Pool is a great game but it is not easy, especially on tight equipment.

I just want the great game to prosper and be fun for the future players. Opinions appreciated.

There is a lot that goes into this ,room owners that have no people skills,greed. There are so many variables. I used to play in a room that the customer was secondary. Road players were treated better than the locals who supported the room. This owner wonders why players and the general public don't support the room????????? He has no one to blame but himself .Treat your customer right and they will return the favor. Maintain the equipment & the environment ,make it a pleasure to play and spend money there. If not ,you will look at a empty room.
 
In my opinion, bar boxes with the large pockets are what average people want to play on, just so that they can make balls. Pool rooms with 9 foot tables and tight equipment are starting to become relics.

Perhaps that's a regional thing... California Billiards here in Northern California does have a fair mix of 9 and 7 footers so that they can host regional tournments and accomodate those who prefer 7's. And Cali gets plenty of casual and infrequrent players (non-pool people), but the majority of those choose to play on the 9-ft tables. The 7's do get people who choose to play on them, but the vast majority are on 9 footers.

In our other local halls, they use 9's for the most part and get plenty of non-pool people playing on them who seem to have no problem with increased difficulty of the larger tables. One of the other halls here has a 7-footer, but that doesn't see much use from even the most novice players. It actually gets most of it's use from the better players who want to practice on a bar table, as well people who are bar-players.

As far as the mass extinciton of pool halls that is going on... It's partly the economy, so any business that was on the fringe in terms of profitability could only last so long... A massive amount of "dollar" stores follow the narrow margin model and a massive amount have gone out of business in the last 3 years for example. In pool, if you lose 10% of your customers, you may still look like your busy, but your bottom line is going to hurt... If they buy less alcohol, play a few hours less per week, or if a few less players come out to play it can be devestating.


Part of it is that a lot of pool hall owners are just bad at running a business. When economic times are good, maybe their poor business skills are more than covered by the free-flow of money... But when times are bad, a bad businessman may not be generating new business, and if he is constantly driving what should be his core customers away he's going to be left with an empty pool hall and no way to cover the bills.

Of course there are plenty of other issues, but those are two big ones that happen regardless of geography.
 
I had this very discussion with Tony Coates the owner of The Brass Tap in Raleigh NC. He's been in business successfully for over 25 years. He knows pool and what it takes to survive. He has one tight table out of all his 9 footers for the gamblers. All his other 9 foot tables have 5" corner pockets, honestly not sure what the sides are but they are generous. He keeps them that way so the recreational players keep coming back to play. He told me he'd never tighten them up because he tried that once and drove folks away. It's all about getting people to come in and play, have some fun and hope that they come back again. Sadly many pool room owners do not seem to care about their equipment or the customers.. But Tony does, his tables are recovered regularly because they get so much play and his tournaments are well run with large turn outs. Great guy, great place to play pool.
 
Sean..."Shimmed pockets" is the accepted term that most people use to describe tighter pockets, so the OP is not 'wrong' (and yes, they are attached to the end of the rubber cushion). Also, the 'shims' are made of asbestos, so when you stack them on top of each other ("double-shimmed" or "triple-shimmed", for example), it does often significantly affect the way the pocket accepts balls...or not. :D I agree wholeheartedly with everything else you said!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

First of all (a little nitpick), shims are applied to rails and cushions, not pockets. (I say this, because you use the phrase "shimmed pockets.")

Second, while shimming is a common practice, it's not what makes pockets "play tough" -- rather, the "cut" of the pockets do. I think it's entirely possible to have a table with tight but "accepting" pockets, as long as the pocket cut allows the pocketing of a ball that enters the pocket's aperture.

-Sean
 
Extra tight pockets loose business in all categories and it shows even with the good players.good players will have a hard time getting the lessor players with the cash on tough tables.plus the good players don't want a tough game on a tight table.the one hole tables should be tight and let the patron's know it.

bill
 
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