Pool Streams. Help US Understand them

So even if the venue you are streaming from has plenty of bandwith, it still could get a poor quality stream? So what you are saying it's a crap shoot on any PPV or free pool stream. Johnnyt
 
Bella Don't Cry said:
That's great knowledge thanks. :thumbup:
I guess at the moment there are too many variables to ensure a smooth stream in every single household, with or without broadband?
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I"ll second that.

And again a big thanks to Mr Amrstrong for all his input on this touchy subject.

:yeah:
 
To hijack the thread:

World snooker tournaments are available on a number of sources.

The pay site is
http://www.worldsnooker.livesport.tv/

Info
http://www.worldsnooker.livesport.tv/help?ICID_HOM_TOP_5

"The LIVESPORT.TV player incorporates adaptive streaming when available, so will always provide you with the best quality video available on your internet connection.

Where adaptive streaming is not available, the player will show you three options for video quality - LOW, MEDIUM and HIGH."

When I was using it, there were only two - 650 kbps & 300 kbps.
Never had streaming problems.

The free sites are a mixed bag.
When I started watching a few years ago, one stream might have good audio, and another might have good picture quality, but with commentary in, for example, Russian.
So I would run two streams. :grin:

Streams have become much more reliable in the past couple of years - hence the dropping of LiveWorldSnookerTV subscription.

But they do have problems.
Last week, worked great for UK (ITV) afternoon matches during the morning (EST):grin:
but became erratic for the evening matches. :eek:

One problem that really bugs me is when the video and audio go out of sync - with the commentator two shots ahead of the picture.

Then search starts for better links.

For all who would like to compare to pool streams (never watched them)
the UK Championship starts broadcasting on Saturday November 28.
On BBC
and
Eurosport - with Ronnie O'Sullivan commentating.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=410154

Where to watch
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=410154
 
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Thank you MR. Armstrong for all your input in this thread. Even lo-tech Johnnyt got 100% of what you said. Johnnyt
 
Money, money, money...

Anyone willing to can do the math.
Here are the prices AudioVideoWeb list on their site (as recently used to stream "Kings Cup of pool" to viewers);

https://www.audiovideoweb.com/orders?t=std

It really boils down to how much the streamer is willing to spend, how many viewers you want to (or are fortunate enough to) service, and of course, how much profit (if any) you are looking to make.

The uplink-capacity is usually not the bottle-neck, the service-provider oftentimes on the other hand can be. The free services often provide a limited bandwidth, while the paid services can be expensive, depending on the total amount of data you are looking to provide for your customers/viewers.

I've tried quite a lot of different PPV streams the last few years, and in my experience only one company delivers consistently great pool streams. Both in regards of the technical stream, but also when it comes to user experience and the ability to choose what table to watch. :wink:
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
You should really just stop talking. Seriously. I don't know where to start, with regards to pointing out the errors in your statements above.
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I was unaware you can multicast from a location not setup with the proper equipment to do so.

So thanks for the information and for being a dick!
 
Skippy27 said:
I was unaware you can multicast from a location not setup with the proper equipment to do so.

So thanks for the information and for being a dick!
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Multicast ? The failed network protocol that never made it ?

All the professional streams use a CDN (for example, those awesome Qatar 9 ball streams (ok,ok they had a few problems this year).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_delivery_network

Now, ofcourse, the downside is that these services are not cheap.
 
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what it still sounds like to me is that bandwidth is still key, so that you can accommodate for loss over the transition.
This is kind of like with video, a 720p or lower video would look good on a 13" laptop or cell phone but not on your 60" tv so by upping the quality offsets the loss for expansion.
Bigger bandwidth say 1080 on one end could end up being 960 on your end where as having the 12megs could translate to 5megs on any persons end depending on previously mentioned issues.

Don't watch streams out of geneva and next to the hardron collider while you're sitting at work in the local power plant
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Absolutely correct. IP based video is an evolution, kind of like the old land line telephones we used years ago. There are a ton of factors that contribute to stream quality, aside from the provider's upstream capabilities. Internet video isn't all that bandwidth intensive. People seem to think that "I have a shitpile of bandwidth, so I will have awesome streams". Not the case. I could go into more techno babble, discussing I frames, P frames, and B frames, and how disrupting one single I frame can cause LOS (loss of signal) errors in video streams.....the point I'm getting at is that a stream sent to you could be 96% error free, and still look jittery and have lag. Or have poor video quality.

It isn't something as simple as "get more upstream", or "upgrade your internet package".
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Thanks for clearing this up Shawn Armstrong! :thumbup:
I am unaware of your background but the pool industry could really benefit from your expertise..? IMO
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
I'll bore you with some techno talk. 1000 kb/s means nothing, when it comes to streaming video. Most internet traffic is done using a protocol called TCP/IP. Basically, think of it as a jigsaw puzzle being sent to you. As long as all the pieces arrive, it doesn't matter which order they arrive in. The computer assembles the jigsaw puzzle, and you get a picture. Video streaming is done using a protocol called UDP, or, as it's called in the industry, "fire and forget". The protocol is real time. Imagine the episode of I Love Lucy, and the chocolates on the conveyor belt. Every chocolate that drops on the floor is a lost video packet, which means the frame you're watching will have degradation. Think of it as a jigsaw puzzle that needs to arrive complete, within 20ms (milliseconds....20 thousanths of a second).

If you're using a standard internet connection, there is no "real way" to guarantee that the stream will be high quality. It may suck for you on your computer, because you may have a lot of congestion in your network. Simple things like having halogen lightbulbs on dimmer switches in your home can cause interference with your modem, which will cause packet errors. Are there things you can do to improve the quality of your internet signal inside your home? Absolutely. I used to travel all over the world teaching communications companies how to clean up their networks. But, to say that you have a 5Mbps connection, so 1000 kbps is nothing, and you should have a flawless and clean video stream.....doesn't cut it. Yep, you can have a 5M line that cannot support a stream rate of 320 kbps. It all depends on how clean your home network, and provider's network is to outside noise and interference.

Hope that helps.
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2 more questions for you, sir....

Would a 10 second delay (Or more)by the streamer allow for a buffer and keep the stream working from dropped packets, etc? Kind of like live Superbowl on a delay to edit out Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunctions.

And...

When ESPN3 live streams the mosconi cup, it's flawless. Being Disney owned, they obviously have an unlimited budget. What are they doing different (maybe more expensive network a setups?) That a local streamer can't do utilizing UStream, etc.?

Thanks again for the info. Lots of learning in this thread.
 
Regarding Netflix, in order to make their streams more solid, they give away a 100TB box to ISP's that holds their full streaming catalog. So when you stream a movie, it's being streamed from the ISP close to your house, not from across the country.

https://openconnect.netflix.com/hardware/

Now if Steinway would install these boxes an ISP's across the country, we could watch Earl challenge matches in style.
 
I have found that it's really hit or miss on devices but that if you have plenty of bandwidth coming in then I can usually get a pretty good stream on at least one of my devices.

Our house has up to four people watching streaming video at a time.

I do think streamers ought to have a money back guarantee though EVEN IF the problem is on the viewer side. Basically a deal where if in the first couple hours you can't make it work you can get a refund and lose your access. That way people can do whatever they can on their end and if it still doesn't work then they don't have to be frustrated all day.

I once bought a TAR match and no matter what I couldn't make it work. I just ended up giving away the access to someone else so they could enjoy it. I also didn't ask for any compensation as I figured the problem was all on my end since other people were able to get it clearly.
 
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