Pool Tournaments - Capitalism or Socialism???

[CJ Wiley]

I don't really see how the OP applies to pool.

Do you think that rule and equipment changes have lowered the overall quality of pool being played at the professional level? Doesn't the overall decline in the interest in pool affect this just as much? Fewer people playing at all levels means less competition, means less need to bring your game up that much higher. In other words, you don't have to run faster than the bear, just faster than the other guy.

How do you measure the quality of a pool player? Given the variability in playing conditions (pocket size, cloth wear, ball conditions, humidity, etc.), is there an objective way to determine that?

Do you think this idea (that rule and equipment changes lower the overall quality) applies to equally to all games (9-ball vs. 14.1)?

-matthew

The Best of the Best will agree that the game (10Ball or 9Ball) needs to be played on a 10' table with slower cloth and 4.25 inch pockets....the pockets can be 4.5 if the cut/shelf keeps you from being about to miss a shot by a diamond and it still go in....the "specialty equipment"...well, none of it helps the Best players....so yes, it's all an equalizer....and half of you reading this will think equalizing the game is working just fine....I'm really ok with hearing your reasons, but I'm also interested in communicating that there is a problem.....and it's been a significant one...however, since there's no way of proving this, it will just have to be filed as "my opinion".....I just appreciate the input, it will help me strategize a few things that I need to address to see if there's a way to move forward. There is so much potential, if things are tweaked..there are TV Networks that would LOVE to do a pool show asap:thumbup:

 

[JasBy]

IMO the 'decline of the professional pool player' is due to one thing and one thing only - $$$. Not rules, 'trick equipment' etc.
I used to play with a guy who could easily play at the pro level. We asked him one night why he doesn't travel to the tournaments and compete. He explained that by the time he pays for travel, hotel, food, booze etc. he would have to play at the top of his game and finish in the top 4 or 5 to make any decent money. Why go to the effort when he can bring in 500-1k a night playing sets for money in addition to his wages as a bartender? I can see his point. Until you can get payouts that make it worth it for a whole field to attend, you aren't going to see great amateurs make the jump to the pro level.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Solution is Challenging....not obvious

IMO the 'decline of the professional pool player' is due to one thing and one thing only - $$$. Not rules, 'trick equipment' etc.
I used to play with a guy who could easily play at the pro level. We asked him one night why he doesn't travel to the tournaments and compete. He explained that by the time he pays for travel, hotel, food, booze etc. he would have to play at the top of his game and finish in the top 4 or 5 to make any decent money. Why go to the effort when he can bring in 500-1k a night playing sets for money in addition to his wages as a bartender? I can see his point. Until you can get payouts that make it worth it for a whole field to attend, you aren't going to see great amateurs make the jump to the pro level.

The $$$ is certainly the issue....however, the point is more about "why has the prize money went down 200% in the last 15 years?" ....and why isn't there a pro tour like there was in the 90s...there is a reason....it's just not obvious, and that's what makes it so appealing.....it's challenging

 

[jalapus logan]

The Best of the Best will agree that the game (10Ball or 9Ball) needs to be played on a 10' table with slower cloth and 4.25 inch pockets....the pockets can be 4.5 if the cut/shelf keeps you from being about to miss a shot by a diamond and it still go in....the "specialty equipment"...well, none of it helps the Best players....so yes, it's all an equalizer....and half of you reading this will think equalizing the game is working just fine....I'm really ok with hearing your reasons, but I'm also interested in communicating that there is a problem.....and it's been a significant one...however, since there's no way of proving this, it will just have to be filed as "my opinion".....I just appreciate the input, it will help me strategize a few things that I need to address to see if there's a way to move forward. There is so much potential, if things are tweaked..there are TV Networks that would LOVE to do a pool show asap:thumbup:

This may work out just fine if 10 ball or 9 ball were the only games out there. But they are not. I think that it is important to have a table that can accomodate all games including 14.1, banks, rotation, etc. and still be viewable for the fans. I love watching different games, that is what makes the new TAR format so good, imo. Watching match after match of rotation based pool gets old, at least for me.

 

[hang-the-9]

The first thing Pool needs is a real farm system and organization. Right now it goes, play in your basement, play in a room, play for money, play on the road, play in an Open tournament, but it's all done by the player on his/her own. Without a clear rise though the ranks, standard equipment (someone mentioned in a post that in the pro snooker tour overseas they play on all perfectly setup tables that are all the same, no going from gold crown with 4.8 inch pockets to a Diamond with 4.3 inch pockets and so forth).

You don't have parents driving their kids to drop them off at a billiard camp like they do with tennis, golf, a dozen other sports, there is not draft from top players to go to the pros, there is no A, AA, AAA, Pro clubs to advance from, it's just a mess of people trying pretty much on their own to run from one event to another that whoever has the money decides to put up. Heck, even a "rated" player, let's say an A, can be less or more than an A depending on what area he is in. There is no global ranking system where you can go and see what an A player can do.

Equipment will come from that, almost no pros when interviewed really like jump cues, yet they all say "if it's in the rules I'll use it". So someone needs to get rid of that rule. Bring back the min and max weight and size for cues and enforce it. Get rid of pattern racking in 9 and 10 ball. Earl should not be allowed to use a 10 foot cue just because, someone should not have a 10oz carbon fiber cue that can jump a ball from 1 inch away. Get rid of non-leather tips. Make a PRO equipment setup rule, 4.5 in inch pockets, cloth type used, but then you have an issue that many matches are played in real pool rooms not a hotel with specially brought in equipment, and what room will reconfigure the equipment for a tournament?

 

[CJ Wiley]

CJ, I gotta love it that you're bringing some enthusiasm to the pool scene! Good luck Brother!

First, I would like to direct your attention to this thread that I started a couple of years ago about tougher equipment in order to solicit folks opinions as to its effects on the broader success of our sport. It got A LOT of attention and responses, with a lot of insight.

The absolute bottom line and holy grail to what you, and really all of us, are trying to achieve is to get more people interested in watching pro pool. Spectators and a legitimate fan base is the only thing that will create any monetary pool large enough to sustain pro pool, period. To that end, I don't necessarily think that having the "cream" rise to the top will have that great an effect. I have a feeling that the cream will rise to the top in the long run anyway.

What is really needed, IMO, is pro and aspiring pro players to engage in some good old fashioned self promotion and try a little outreach from time to time. Baseball is popular in no small part because damn near everyone played in little league. I did not hold my first pool cue until I was 18 (and when I fell in love with the game - i found out quickly that I was a BIG target - ha ha - the predatory nature of some kept me away for a while...). See the difference? We've got to get new players engaged with pro pool. Leagues are great to introduce new players, but they by and large don't watch pro pool. Why, because they have not heard of the players and have no one to root for. Here in basketball country, we have plenty of fans of that sport that have never held a ball or shot a free throw. Why? Because it is a social event and they have something in common to root for.

Have pros provide bios, keep stats, have them interact with spectators and that will be a start. All IMO, of course...

Self Promotion is very important.....we all did this at a pretty high level...Jeanette Lee ended up being the best at it, but several of us did our fair share.....I did over 600 International Hours on ESPN and Produced 4 shows on FOX SPORTS (PRIME)....as well as Good Morning Texas....Texas Monthly, lots of NEWS/Charity events etc.....I agree with you on that point, but without cream rising to the top you'll end up with a lot of "sour milk" ...Jk

 

[OUSooner]

When professional pool was pulled off of television any chance at a major sponsor went out the window. The only money breathing life into pool at all is coming from the amateur ranks. Pool has to get back on television. Without that market it will not have a chance.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk

 

[CJ Wiley]

10' Tables are like Bo Derrick

This may work out just fine if 10 ball or 9 ball were the only games out there. But they are not. I think that it is important to have a table that can accomodate all games including 14.1, banks, rotation, etc. and still be viewable for the fans. I love watching different games, that is what makes the new TAR format so good, imo. Watching match after match of rotation based pool gets old, at least for me.

All games are better on the 10' table....one pocket especially....back in the "old days" it was the only table played on and their game was 14.1 ... once you play on the 10' table it's tough to enjoy the other ones for awhile....it's just that much better (in many of our opinions)!!!

 

[CJ Wiley]

When professional pool was pulled off of television any chance at a major sponsor went out the window. The only money breathing life into pool at all is coming from the amateur ranks. Pool has to get back on television. Without that market it will not have a chance.

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That's exactly why I'm getting back involved....I have a LOT of experience with TV Production.....shows, commercials, commentary, etc....if someone told me there would be no more TV opportunities I would NEVER pick up a stick again....yes, indeed!!!

 

[supergreenman]

The reason this hits so close to home for me is "The PROFESSIONAL Pool World" seems to have strayed away from a capitalistic path through "tricky equipment, changing rules to create more "luck", therefore limiting skill, and creating handicap systems to "equalize everyone", and if you look at professional pool's steady decline the last 12 years will you agree (?) that socialistic structure is a recipe for failure even in the example of a "Game"?....Can it be that trying to "make things fair" and "treating everyone the same" has actually led to, at least temperately, the demise of Pool? Is it too late to make the game challenging again, so the true cream of the crop can Dominate the Game?

In This Example - A professor uses grades, but Substitute Money for Grades to understand the following example of a socialist system in place at a school:



All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the
same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A....
(substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling (this never happens in the "Pool World" LoL) all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

Was the reward taken away from the top pool players many years ago? Did establishing One Foul Rules, Trick Equipment, Faster Cloth, Heavier Cue Balls, Shorter Races, Lower First Place Prize Money, result in the decline in pool? After giving this some thought I can relate to the frustration and disgruntlement of the current Top Billiard Professionals! :frown: The Battle Cry of Socialism is: We Treat Everybody the Same! This, at first sounds logical and fair, but what result does it honestly get..Is it really good to have a different winner in every pro event?

Dude leave the political theories to um..... well someone else.

oh yeah, I hear JC Pennys has a sale on tinfoil hats. You might want to check that out.

Political systems have no influence on the game of pool.

 

[Cdryden]

Dude leave the political theories to um..... well someone else.

oh yeah, I hear JC Pennys has a sale on tinfoil hats. You might want to check that out.

Political systems have no influence on the game of pool.

Well, that was rude.

While I don't agree with everything CJ said, he makes some good points and at least he is try to do something about it.

 

[Scott Lee]

CJ...Let's see now, 10' tables went out in the 50's, and all tournament play was played on 9' tables (still is mostly). While Diamond has made a few 10' tables (there were 4, iirc, at Tunica last month), they will never again be the tournament norm, for several reasons. As far as cloth goes, Simonis is far preferable to the old slow nap cloth. That's not even debatable. The equipment is much better now than it was 60 years ago...from tables and cloth, to cues and balls. The best players still rise to the top...there's just a heck of a lot more of them now, and they are found worldwide, instead of just here in the USA.

Just FYI, I thought your idea for the PCA was fantastic, and had a real chance at success. Too bad Earl smoked it on the first day of the first event. When are you coming out with a book or movie about that?

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

All games are better on the 10' table....one pocket especially....back in the "old days" it was the only table played on and their game was 14.1 ... once you play on the 10' table it's tough to enjoy the other ones for awhile....it's just that much better (in many of our opinions)!!!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Dude leave the political theories to um..... well someone else.

I agree. The question about pool is legitimate and interesting, but couching it in hot-button political terms is unnecessary and divisive.

Good to see that's been mostly ignored in the discussion - except by you and me... LOL.

pj
chgo

 

[driz86]

I don't know about all that but I don't believe that pool is a legitimate way of making a living. Of course, there are a lot of people who could make the grade as "professional" pool players but you see the whole thing is flawed because what are you doing to work towards a greater good for the greater community? A selfish pursuit at best, it should be regarded as a pastime and not a profession (to put it in the proper perspective). It's a shame to think otherwise.

 

[itsfroze]

I don't know about all that but I don't believe that pool is a legitimate way of making a living. Of course, there are a lot of people who could make the grade as "professional" pool players but you see the whole thing is flawed because what are you doing to work towards a greater good for the greater community? A selfish pursuit at best, it should be regarded as a pastime and not a profession (to put it in the proper perspective). It's a shame to think otherwise.

Glad most people don't think like you. LOL

 

[CreeDo]

CJ, I respect your opinion, you've been there on the pro scene and can of course outplay anyone in the room.

But, is it possible this is just what happens... whenever the last generation of great players gets replaced by the next generation? They talk about how the old guys used to have so much more skill, the new guys are getting lucky, everything was better in the old days, including the equipment?

I bet the same thing has been heard in tennis and golf and such... "these new clubs make even amateurs hit it 500 yards, it's disgusting."

I don't think it's realistic to expect technology to grind to a halt. They're going to make more perfect cloth and racks no matter what. But there is some movement towards 10 foot tables and tighter pockets (all of the tar matches are on pretty tiny pockets, and a lot of events are played on diamonds).

As for the rule changes... one of them you mentioned puzzled me. Roll out 9 ball is definitely long gone and I doubt it's ever coming back. But how does 1-foul favor the amateur? To me, it favors the amateur when you allow them to foul and get away with it. Whereas if they get punished with an almost guaranteed loss of game, they'll be damn sure to hit that kick next time.

 

[ComptonCustomCues]

Modern pool while played at a high level just isn't exciting like this>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gqoPreD8cY&feature=player_embedded

 

[pwd72s]

Socialism and the handicapping of sporting events are not related. Sometimes the outcome of an handicapped event may appear to resemble the desire to satisfy the mantra, "each according to their needs; each acoording to their ability to pay", but such is not the case, and we certainly don't need to walk around our local pool rooms carrying signs that read, "Pool Players of the World Unite."
Handicapps are simply a way to level the playing field. :smile:

LOL! That, and a way to help sell cues, cases, tip tools, etc. If there was no league handicapping, I suspect you'd see the player count diminishing in number.

 

[Underclocked]

CJ, finally found my way back to this thread. Texas is too much of a trip for me nowadays. Olathe is even getting tough on us old guys. Would love to go to some of the bigger tourneys if I could figure out a warp drive.

 

[justadub]

CJ, what do you think about pro's playing 8-ball? It is the most popular pool game going, its how virtually everyone starts, and certainly is the most familiar form of pool for the masses....if you want to attract a sizeable TV audience, don't you think 8-ball should at least be considered?

I'm curious what you think about this.

And thank you, not only for your drive to do SOMETHING with pool, but also for participating here with us on AZB. It is appreciated.