Power Draw-Mike Massey-2 ways

N

naji

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
1st thanks much Dr. Dave for sharing and giving the knowledge to all your explanations to these shots and all are much appreciated. I like to know how did Mike draw the CB that much with different two strokes, 1st video he droped elbow and followed nicely, 2nd video he did not drop his elbow and it seems that he did not follow through as much. He does say in the explanation of 2nd video dropping elbow required but he did not drop it. Thanks to all comments


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL509F94232B8DAA28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg
 
I would guess that Mike strikes through the bottom half of the cue ball with great acceleration. It's Mike's preparation not his follow through!!!!!!

randyg
 
naji said:
1st thanks much Dr. Dave for sharing and giving the knowledge to all your explanations to these shots and all are much appreciated. I like to know how did Mike draw the CB that much with different two strokes, 1st video he droped elbow and followed nicely, 2nd video he did not drop his elbow and it seems that he did not follow through as much. He does say in the explanation of 2nd video dropping elbow required but he did not drop it. Thanks to all comments


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL509F94232B8DAA28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg
Click to expand...

I have always thought mike to be one of the most incredible people I have ever known. He is extremely talented in many areas and when we look up the word survivor, his picture should e there. He has lived through, going to hell and back.
His stroke was just freakish to me. I once asked him if he knew how to put English on both sides of the ball and he just smiled.
Anyone who can survive a plane crash while playing pool is a very specail person.
 
randyg said:
I would guess that Mike strikes through the bottom half of the cue ball with great acceleration. It's Mike's preparation not his follow through!!!!!!

randyg
Click to expand...

Thanks Randyg, i really want to get to the bottom of it. Is it too much power not much follow through, or less power with too much follow through? for sure hitting low is 100% critical. I noticed his lever is longer on 1st shot which gave him the power.
 
I'm not offering an opinion on if drop vs no drop is best...

But the OP said Massey did not drop his elbow on the second link. To me it looked like he dropped it a mile. At the end he even shows where his hand ended up and where it started, thus the elbow dropped a mile.
 
naji said:
Thanks Randyg, i really want to get to the bottom of it. Is it too much power not much follow through, or less power with too much follow through? for sure hitting low is 100% critical. I noticed his lever is longer on 1st shot which gave him the power.
Click to expand...



It's not Power, it's the Velocity.
randyg
 
I play with an 11-11.5 mm shaft and can draw Massey's shot consistently... though my table is only 8 ft. My stroke isn't good enough to quite get there with a standard shaft though. Whether or not you drop your elbow or this and that... the key for me is to back off a little on the power you think you need. The goal is maximum spin with minimum cue ball speed. So get down toward your miscue point and make sure you keep your back hand lose (sometimes I catch my hand trying to tighten up at the end of a big draw stroke). Long follow through and dig into the table a little bit. Just tried it on a bar box with that awful wool-sweater type cloth and almost got there... Try a smaller shaft and you'll be amazed at how little effort it takes to draw the ball. I find myself having to soft stroke full table draw shots or I over shoot them. I get the best action with a 12.25ish mm... my playing shaft is just getting too small for my big hands and I'm too damn poor too afford a new one at the moment! Someone want to sell me a 30" Pechauer for cheap???
 
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Thought this was a rather routine shot there's videos of other people on youtube doing it. Larry Nevel draws two table lengths from 9' away, cue ball frozen to the back rail and object ball near a far corner pocket. Now that's incredible... I can only get it back about 8 feet from being frozen and he get's 20' with a 13mm... Larry has a freaking insane stroke. Though I've heard he shatters ferrules even more than I do... :confused:
 
A small diameter shaft will not be as stiff as a broom stick. The small diameter shaft will bend down from the impact of a draw shot as it's tip compresses and will follow the circumference downward from the bridge. So for a given contact spot for draw, the smaller diameter or more flexible the front end of the shaft, the better the draw. Increased contact time?

A pendulum stroke, if the contact to the CB is perpendicular to the slate, will drop the tip of the cue down to the cloth effecting the similarf/same downward motion as the thin/flexible shaft.

If both are in concert - more draw.

Just sayin,

Merry Xmas y'all.:wink::thumbup:l
 
LAMas said:
A small diameter shaft will not be as stiff as a broom stick. The small diameter shaft will bend down from the impact of a draw shot as it's tip compresses and will follow the circumference downward from the bridge. So for a given contact spot for draw, the smaller diameter or more flexible the front end of the shaft, the better the draw. Increased contact time?

A pendulum stroke, if the contact to the CB is perpendicular to the slate, will drop the tip of the cue down to the cloth effecting the similarf/same downward motion as the thin/flexible shaft.

If both are in concert - more draw.

Just sayin,

Merry Xmas y'all.:wink::thumbup:l
Click to expand...


Exactly right! I think... but defying this is my break cue (a cheapish Lucasi with a 13mm shaft). It actually produces more deflection and flex in the shaft... my 11mm Pechauer is somehow more stiff, even with the same long taper. Then again Pechauer uses some really heavy/dense wood for their shafts. It was 5.4 ounces when it was new at 13mm!!!!
 
randyg said:
I would guess that Mike strikes through the bottom half of the cue ball with great acceleration. It's Mike's preparation not his follow through!!!!!!

randyg
Click to expand...

No doubt Randy. You can use the side pocket as a guide on teh 2nd shot. You can see clearly that his tip does not go past the side pocket. At 1:26, you can see how far the cueball is from the side pocket. This means he has at most about a 6" follow through, certainly not more than usual...

Yet no shortage of draw!!


KMRUNOUT
 
naji said:
I noticed his lever is longer on 1st shot which gave him the power.
Click to expand...

Naji,

It is sentences like these where you go wrong. You are saying yourself that there was a *difference* in the length of the lever. He drew the same distance *in both shots*. Yet you ascribe the amount of draw to the longer lever. This is simply illogical.

The correct conclusion that anyone would *logically* make from your sentence above is that since the result was the same, and the length of lever was different, then that is NOT the cause for the outcome.


KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
No doubt Randy. You can use the side pocket as a guide on teh 2nd shot. You can see clearly that his tip does not go past the side pocket. At 1:26, you can see how far the cueball is from the side pocket. This means he has at most about a 6" follow through, certainly not more than usual...

Yet no shortage of draw!!


KMRUNOUT
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The follow through helps to ensure that you're striking where intended, but of course has no affect on the ball, as it has left the tip long before you pushed your stroke out. If you don't follow through, you're more likely to poke it and back off in the middle of your stroke. This is of course dependent upon individual and skill level. I still find myself backing off a little if I don't intentionally think about following through.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I'm not offering an opinion on if drop vs no drop is best...

But the OP said Massey did not drop his elbow on the second link. To me it looked like he dropped it a mile. At the end he even shows where his hand ended up and where it started, thus the elbow dropped a mile.
Click to expand...

Watch the video again *carefully*. You will see that the location of his tip at maximum follow through during the shot is NOT the same location he places it when describing the elbow drop. Mike is not clear himself what he did.

KMRUNOUT
 
randyg said:
It's not Power, it's the Velocity.
randyg
Click to expand...

Power is a mathematical function of velocity. People stumble over this all the time.

It makes no sense to say it is any combination of "X, not Y", where X and Y could be power, force, speed, velocity, etc.

Not trying to single you out Randy, MANY people on this board don't know the meaning of many of these physics terms.

Any amount of velocity for even the slightest instant *IS* power.

KMRUNOUT
 
naji said:
Indeed but what creates the velocity ? in these two clips, 1st one for sure is the long lever and long follow through, but what did it in 2nd clip?
Click to expand...

you may want to practice your skills in logic. You are asking a legitimate question, but then providing your own answer based on an (erroneous and illogical) assumption.
 
spindoctor9 said:
Thought this was a rather routine shot there's videos of other people on youtube doing it. Larry Nevel draws two table lengths from 9' away, cue ball frozen to the back rail and object ball near a far corner pocket. Now that's incredible... I can only get it back about 8 feet from being frozen and he get's 20' with a 13mm... Larry has a freaking insane stroke. Though I've heard he shatters ferrules even more than I do... :confused:
Click to expand...

How long is Larry's follow through when he is *JACKED UP* frozen to the rail?

Food for thought...

(Of course the resistance of the table against the cueball is what allows this level of spin here...)

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Power is a mathematical function of velocity. People stumble over this all the time.

It makes no sense to say it is any combination of "X, not Y", where X and Y could be power, force, speed, velocity, etc.

Not trying to single you out Randy, MANY people on this board don't know the meaning of many of these physics terms.

Any amount of velocity for even the slightest instant *IS* power.

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...
Here are some basic physics formulas:

Velocity = displacement / time

Power = Work / Time = Force * Velocity = Force * displacement / time

Force = mass * acceleration​
Is Mike somehow accelerating through the ball more than the rest of us to get that power draw?
 
There are three ways to increase power. More weight, more speed, or both. These are results and do not explain how he achieves the stroke. Any takers? And don't come back with experience, years of doing it, or finesse. Those are true, non-answers. :grin:

Best,
Mike
 
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