Pre Flag Masters Chalk - Is it better ?

JB Cases said:
There is no difference.

I have purchased nearly one million pieces of chalk from Tweeten. Triangle and Master chalk are EXACTLY the same with a different wrapper. Triangle as a brand was created for the British market.
Click to expand...

John you are partly correct, the Chalk made today is the same. However, until the 1960's Triangle chalk was made by a different company called Kieckhelfer Manufacturing Company, not Tweeten. I don't know when Tweeten came on the seen, however, I do know that Kieckhelfer went out of business in the 1960's. I have found references to Kieckhelfer going back to the turn of the century and ending in the 1960's. In the late 1960's or very early 1970's Tweeten comes on the scene and starts selling Masters Chalk and re-markets Triangle under their name. I suspect they bought the rights for Triangle Chalk from Kieckhelfer, along with a number of other items. The above dates may vary slightly, but not much, like most on the forum know I an a major collector billiard related items, and that I have done a lot of research in this area.

Below is my private reserve of chalk that I have purchased and saved over the years with approximate dates that the items have come from.

Below are old box's of Triangle chalk manufactured by Kieckhefer, both box's are from the 1950's or early 1960's and at that time chalk only came in Blue, Green, and I have also seen Red like the Chalk pictured in the first two photo's.

1.jpg

2.jpg

Below is my supply of Masters Chalk without the Flag, the Chalk Pictured is from the early 1970's. Originally this Chalk came in Blue and Green only to my knowledge.

4.jpg

Below is a comparison of the Box's that Masters Chalk came in then, and comes in now. The major difference is the design of Deer or Elk Head on the box. The Center box of Masters is what is currently being produced, the box's to the right and left are old Pre-flag masters Chalk.

5.jpg

Below is another difference between the new and the old Masters Chalk, and that is color. The new chalk with the Flag is a darker Blue and less Gritty, and the old Masters Chalk is lighter Blue and at least twice if not more Gritty.

3.jpg

I have heard all the stories about why the Chalk was changed in the late 1980's or early 1990's, however, I have never been able to confirm that it was because of Lead or anything else. But, I can say without a doubt the older Triangle and Masters chalk will stay on your tip better than the new formula, I think this is because it was more Gritty and it would dig into the tip better. I certainly prefer the old over the new for both Masters and Triangle.

Hope this information and photo's help!!:smile:
 
poolhustler said:
Hey buddy,

Not really interested in selling any of the chalk. If you are running low I will gladly give you the open box (24 pieces).

Russ.......
Click to expand...

Russ, the center box pictured is the new Chalk not the Old Masters, it's very obvious to me by the design of the Deer Head and the Holographic lable along with the Blue lable.
 
I like the master green WITH the flag... because... it plays great... it doesn't mark up my ferule...and leaves no color at all on my shaft or my hands....


plays great .. less mess..

tastes great... less filling...

get real... it's chalk


it's only going to carry you for one shot... sometimes...

if you can stroke it won't matter and

if you can't stroke it won't help..

JMO
 
manwon said:
John you are partly correct, the Chalk made today is the same. However, until the 1960's Triangle chalk was made by a different company called Kieckhelfer Manufacturing Company, not Tweeten. I don't know when Tweeten came on the seen, however, I do know that Kieckhelfer went out of business in the 1960's. I have found references to Kieckhelfer going back to the turn of the century and ending in the 1960's. In the late 1960's or very early 1970's Tweeten comes on the scene and starts selling Masters Chalk and re-markets Triangle under their name. I suspect they bought the rights for Triangle Chalk from Kieckhelfer, along with a number of other items. The above dates may vary slightly, but not much, like most on the forum know I an a major collector billiard related items, and that I have done a lot of research in this area.

Below is my private reserve of chalk that I have purchased and saved over the years with approximate dates that the items have come from.

Below are old box's of Triangle chalk manufactured by Kieckhefer, both box's are from the 1950's or early 1960's and at that time chalk only came in Blue, Green, and I have also seen Red like the Chalk pictured in the first two photo's.

View attachment 85311

View attachment 85312

Below is my supply of Masters Chalk without the Flag, the Chalk Pictured is from the early 1970's. Originally this Chalk came in Blue and Green only to my knowledge.

View attachment 85313

Below is a comparison of the Box's that Masters Chalk came in then, and comes in now. The major difference is the design of Deer or Elk Head on the box. The Center box of Masters is what is currently being produced, the box's to the right and left are old Pre-flag masters Chalk.

View attachment 85314

Below is another difference between the new and the old Masters Chalk, and that is color. The new chalk with the Flag is a darker Blue and less Gritty, and the old Masters Chalk is lighter Blue and at least twice if not more Gritty.

View attachment 85315

I have heard all the stories about why the Chalk was changed in the late 1980's or early 1990's, however, I have never been able to confirm that it was because of Lead or anything else. But, I can say without a doubt the older Triangle and Masters chalk will stay on your tip better than the new formula, I think this is because it was more Gritty and it would dig into the tip better. I certainly prefer the old over the new for both Masters and Triangle.

Hope this information and photo's help!!:smile:
Click to expand...


That's awesome Craig. Thank you. I was going by what Skip Nemecek said which I suppose is technically true for the chalk they produce under the Triangle brand.

I guess I must be sitting pretty good then with all the "fake" Masters chalk in China which probably has lead in the pigments.
 
manwon said:
Russ, the center box pictured is the new Chalk not the Old Masters, it's very obvious to me by the design of the Deer Head and the Holographic lable along with the Blue lable.
Click to expand...

After seeing your pics and info, I was going to check the chalk in that box.

I didn't want to open it yet, but I will tonight and check it out.

It looks to be the flagged version!!

Thanks Craig,

Russ.....
 
manwon said:
John you are partly correct, the Chalk made today is the same. However, until the 1960's Triangle chalk was made by a different company called Kieckhelfer Manufacturing Company, not Tweeten. I don't know when Tweeten came on the seen, however, I do know that Kieckhelfer went out of business in the 1960's. I have found references to Kieckhelfer going back to the turn of the century and ending in the 1960's. In the late 1960's or very early 1970's Tweeten comes on the scene and starts selling Masters Chalk and re-markets Triangle under their name. I suspect they bought the rights for Triangle Chalk from Kieckhelfer, along with a number of other items. The above dates may vary slightly, but not much, like most on the forum know I an a major collector billiard related items, and that I have done a lot of research in this area.

Below is my private reserve of chalk that I have purchased and saved over the years with approximate dates that the items have come from.

Below are old box's of Triangle chalk manufactured by Kieckhefer, both box's are from the 1950's or early 1960's and at that time chalk only came in Blue, Green, and I have also seen Red like the Chalk pictured in the first two photo's.

View attachment 85311

View attachment 85312

Below is my supply of Masters Chalk without the Flag, the Chalk Pictured is from the early 1970's. Originally this Chalk came in Blue and Green only to my knowledge.

View attachment 85313

Below is a comparison of the Box's that Masters Chalk came in then, and comes in now. The major difference is the design of Deer or Elk Head on the box. The Center box of Masters is what is currently being produced, the box's to the right and left are old Pre-flag masters Chalk.

View attachment 85314

Below is another difference between the new and the old Masters Chalk, and that is color. The new chalk with the Flag is a darker Blue and less Gritty, and the old Masters Chalk is lighter Blue and at least twice if not more Gritty.

View attachment 85315

I have heard all the stories about why the Chalk was changed in the late 1980's or early 1990's, however, I have never been able to confirm that it was because of Lead or anything else. But, I can say without a doubt the older Triangle and Masters chalk will stay on your tip better than the new formula, I think this is because it was more Gritty and it would dig into the tip better. I certainly prefer the old over the new for both Masters and Triangle.

Hope this information and photo's help!!:smile:
Click to expand...

What will help is you sending me a few pieces of the old Masters Chalk to test. :thumbup:
JoeyA
 
iowa_player said:
Whats your opinion ?
I heard somewhere that the pre flag master chalk is suppose to be better for some reason . One of the members here on AZB even has a picture of two worn out pre flag masters chalk for their avatar .

I just went through an old stash of chalk and found 12 pieces of this pre flag chalk and think im going to give it a try .

I just looked and the members name is TX Poolnut and his title under his name is ( pre flag masters chalk ) you can see his avatar here > http://forums.azbilliards.com/member.php?u=4700

Thanks for your opinions !

Larry
Click to expand...
Sorry I missed this thread.

The chalk in my avatar is from a couple of years ago when hillbilly was staying with me. He had a gross of it and that's all we ever used here at the house. The reason those cubes got worn down so much is because he refused to throw it away until it just couldn't be used anymore. I'm sure he still has lots of it and probably still uses it exclusively. I guess there's really no reason to throw away chalk that can still be applied anyway.

He swore by the stuff. I don't know whether it was just a mental thing or if there is really something to the pre-flag chalk. Either way, I still have lots of it and would be interested to buy a large box of it if anyone is willing to part with a gross.

By the way, I'm working on updating my avatar with another picture, but it's taking me awhile to get to the bottom of the cubes by myself. It's become a sort of personal challenge to see if I can get to the bottom without breaking it. :)
 
I have

used

Blue Diamond for the past few months now and I must say that's all I will ever use. I also bought some NIR and it is just too creamy. It works well, but it leaves blue splotches on the cue ball and makes more of a mess than normal.

Buddy Hall gave me a cube of some 20 yr old chalk and said something about it, I think he said something about zinc, or lead or something like that. He just said it works better. I tried it and it is better. Still though, the current stuff works just fine and dandy too. I also got some Triangle and some Silver Cup. To me, the Silver Cup is the least favorite, and I can't tell a difference between Triangle and Master.

I agree that chalk is chalk for the most part. For me, it's a mental thing that I am using the best product out there and it is worth the $4 bucks. I now use a chalker and to me, that's just one more thing that's gonna contribute to me gettin' out. :dance:
 
iowa_player said:
Whats your opinion ?
I heard somewhere that the pre flag master chalk is suppose to be better for some reason . One of the members here on AZB even has a picture of two worn out pre flag masters chalk for their avatar .

I just went through an old stash of chalk and found 12 pieces of this pre flag chalk and think im going to give it a try .

I just looked and the members name is TX Poolnut and his title under his name is ( pre flag masters chalk ) you can see his avatar here > http://forums.azbilliards.com/member.php?u=4700

Thanks for your opinions !

Larry
Click to expand...

I think the flag was just a change in the paper wrap. The real issue is when did they quit using lead in the chalk.

If you've got babies, or grand babies, throw that old chalk away.


Justin (loves dem grand babies) Nuder
 
Last edited:
Fred said:
I think the flag was just a change in the paper wrap. The real issue is when did they quit using lead in the chalk.

If you've got babies, or grand babies, throw that old chalk away.


Justin (loves dem grand babies) Nuder
Click to expand...

Thats a good point Justin, in fact if anyone is going to throw the old Chalk away I will take it. Hell I may put an ad on Craig's list offering to trade new Chalk for old!!!!!!:thumbup:

But I really won't worry to much about the old Chalk, as long as the kids don't chew on it there won't be any problem, it is kinda like the old Lead paint.

Take Care
 
manwon said:
Thats a good point Justin, in fact if anyone is going to throw the old Chalk away I will take it. Hell I may put an ad on Craig's list offering to trade new Chalk for old!!!!!!:thumbup:

But I really won't worry to much about the old Chalk, as long as the kids don't chew on it there won't be any problem, it is kinda like the old Lead paint.

Take Care
Click to expand...

Or sell your old chalk to Manwon for a small profit.


Justin (never afraid to make a buck off dem grand babies) Nuder
 
Yep!! The full box that I have is the "flagged" version.

I must have bought that right when they changed over, because I have had it forever.

I'll stick with the Blue Diamond thanks!!

Russ.....
 
kieckhefer chalk

manwon said:
John you are partly correct, the Chalk made today is the same. However, until the 1960's Triangle chalk was made by a different company called Kieckhelfer Manufacturing Company, not Tweeten. I don't know when Tweeten came on the seen, however, I do know that Kieckhelfer went out of business in the 1960's. I have found references to Kieckhelfer going back to the turn of the century and ending in the 1960's. In the late 1960's or very early 1970's Tweeten comes on the scene and starts selling Masters Chalk and re-markets Triangle under their name. I suspect they bought the rights for Triangle Chalk from Kieckhelfer, along with a number of other items. The above dates may vary slightly, but not much, like most on the forum know I an a major collector billiard related items, and that I have done a lot of research in this area.

Below is my private reserve of chalk that I have purchased and saved over the years with approximate dates that the items have come from.

Below are old box's of Triangle chalk manufactured by Kieckhefer, both box's are from the 1950's or early 1960's and at that time chalk only came in Blue, Green, and I have also seen Red like the Chalk pictured in the first two photo's.

View attachment 85311

View attachment 85312

Below is my supply of Masters Chalk without the Flag, the Chalk Pictured is from the early 1970's. Originally this Chalk came in Blue and Green only to my knowledge.

View attachment 85313

Below is a comparison of the Box's that Masters Chalk came in then, and comes in now. The major difference is the design of Deer or Elk Head on the box. The Center box of Masters is what is currently being produced, the box's to the right and left are old Pre-flag masters Chalk.

View attachment 85314

Below is another difference between the new and the old Masters Chalk, and that is color. The new chalk with the Flag is a darker Blue and less Gritty, and the old Masters Chalk is lighter Blue and at least twice if not more Gritty.

View attachment 85315

I have heard all the stories about why the Chalk was changed in the late 1980's or early 1990's, however, I have never been able to confirm that it was because of Lead or anything else. But, I can say without a doubt the older Triangle and Masters chalk will stay on your tip better than the new formula, I think this is because it was more Gritty and it would dig into the tip better. I certainly prefer the old over the new for both Masters and Triangle.

Hope this information and photo's help!!:smile:
Click to expand...

hi does anyone know were i can purchase the triangle chalk kieckhefer? i would like to buy atleast 1 block to see what all the fuss is about
 
Back in the day i bought a gross of the pre flag for $10. Still have half a box. Had no idea it was d bomb.
 
manwon said:
John you are partly correct, the Chalk made today is the same. However, until the 1960's Triangle chalk was made by a different company called Kieckhelfer Manufacturing Company, not Tweeten. I don't know when Tweeten came on the seen, however, I do know that Kieckhelfer went out of business in the 1960's. I have found references to Kieckhelfer going back to the turn of the century and ending in the 1960's. In the late 1960's or very early 1970's Tweeten comes on the scene and starts selling Masters Chalk and re-markets Triangle under their name. I suspect they bought the rights for Triangle Chalk from Kieckhelfer, along with a number of other items. The above dates may vary slightly, but not much, like most on the forum know I an a major collector billiard related items, and that I have done a lot of research in this area.

Below is my private reserve of chalk that I have purchased and saved over the years with approximate dates that the items have come from.

Below are old box's of Triangle chalk manufactured by Kieckhefer, both box's are from the 1950's or early 1960's and at that time chalk only came in Blue, Green, and I have also seen Red like the Chalk pictured in the first two photo's.

View attachment 85311

View attachment 85312

Below is my supply of Masters Chalk without the Flag, the Chalk Pictured is from the early 1970's. Originally this Chalk came in Blue and Green only to my knowledge.

View attachment 85313

Below is a comparison of the Box's that Masters Chalk came in then, and comes in now. The major difference is the design of Deer or Elk Head on the box. The Center box of Masters is what is currently being produced, the box's to the right and left are old Pre-flag masters Chalk.

View attachment 85314

Below is another difference between the new and the old Masters Chalk, and that is color. The new chalk with the Flag is a darker Blue and less Gritty, and the old Masters Chalk is lighter Blue and at least twice if not more Gritty.

View attachment 85315

I have heard all the stories about why the Chalk was changed in the late 1980's or early 1990's, however, I have never been able to confirm that it was because of Lead or anything else. But, I can say without a doubt the older Triangle and Masters chalk will stay on your tip better than the new formula, I think this is because it was more Gritty and it would dig into the tip better. I certainly prefer the old over the new for both Masters and Triangle.

Hope this information and photo's help!!:smile:
Click to expand...

I guess I never said thanks, but thanks! Good information.
 
they still manufactor pre-flag chalk. I was told this at the BCA trade show by the boss, he has worked there for over 20 years. The reason is some markets dont want a America flags n their chalk, they never stopped making it in all colors.
 
Tried it all, the best for me is Blue Diamond. The price won't hurt too bad if you buy it by the case. :thumbup:
 
Picking the right chalk

...for those that don't bring their own.

In particular, when the counter has a box of MASTER, which currently comes in all types of consistencies, which includes grainy that just falls apart and gets everywhere, to granite where it's rock hard.

The trick to finding a good piece is to look at the wrapper in the box of used ones at the counter.
There are plenty of times where the houseman gives me a tray of balls, and sees me looking through the box of chalk, and they reach behind the counter to offer me a couple of brand new pieces to use. I almost always refuse.

It's all about the wrapper. Using the wear on the wrapper while also looking at the chalk wear to determine the consistency before taking it to the table to try out.
If you have a bright red wrapper, and the chalk has a really deep hole in it, it's like sand, doesn't hold well on the tip, and gets absolutely everywhere. This stuff just gets your hands all sorts off messed up, gets all over the table. It just sucks.

If you have a white-ish wrapper with hints of left over red on it, and the chalk hole is really high and almost new, it is a concrete brick and is too friggin hard, and goes on terrible. This is also the stuff that goes on like toothpaste should it get humid, and you are taking chalk off in one spot, while you are trying to put it on in another.

If you have a white-ish with hints of red wrapper, and the chalk hole is worn down maybe a quarter or third of the way in, THAT'S a good piece right there.

And if the wrapper is white-ish, and the chalk is almost done with a deep hole, those pieces are just too far gone to bother with.

<---hates new chalk.
 
Pre-flag is one of those great superstitious myths pool players love to embrace.
It's just chalk. 95% of miscues are player error anyway. If you include "Failure to chalk" or "failure to chalk thoroughly" as a player error... then you can probably jack that number up to 99.9%.

The other .01% will be when someone's ass bumps your cue.

They put the flag on it after 9/11 to help sell it to patriotic types. Lots of companies started slapping flags and eagles and ribbons on their products to exploit 9/11 for a few extra bucks.

This whole "they changed the formula and then put on a new wrapper" thing... stop and think about it. Tell me how much sense this makes to you. They have a potentially hazardous substance, lead, and they want to remove it to avoid lawsuits and comply with the law. The last thing they want is some guy claiming old chalk caused his kidneys to fail, right?

So they announce the change to the whole world by changing the wrapper? And the change they make is... to put a flag on it? Coincidentally starting about 11 years ago??

Don't get sucked into the hype. Don't be one of those guys who needs his lucky chalk and his lucky ferrule and his lucky shoestrings in order to make a ball. Don't let chalk become just another 'equipment excuse' the next time you fall six inches short on your draw.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top