Prize fund to best Mosconi's run?

mnorwood

mnorwood

Moon
Silver Member
Here's an idea: Structure a system to build a prize fund for the first 14.1 player to best Mosconi's run and have it on tape. Any tape would have to be examined to ensure its authenticity. Players could pay an annual entry fee to the prize fund which would be a progressive pot. Contributions from outside individuals and sponsors could be made to the pot as well. I believe that if the pot grew to over 50k the record would fall quickly.
 
great idea

mnorwood said:
Here's an idea: Structure a system to build a prize fund for the first 14.1 player to best Mosconi's run and have it on tape. Any tape would have to be examined to ensure its authenticity. Players could pay an annual entry fee to the prize fund which would be a progressive pot. Contributions from outside individuals and sponsors could be made to the pot as well. I believe that if the pot grew to over 50k the record would fall quickly.
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i love the idea and i would be first in line to try.
i will say this though to run that many is so tough and unlikely and frankly there is only about 10 people who have the ability to even come close.
to do it is next to impossible.to do it on film knowing youll get 50,000 makes it even tougher.
if somebody would have told willie you run over 500 ever you get 50,000 ,believe me when he had a breakshot at about 460 it would have felt as hard as throwing a hubcap through a coinslot.
think about it.willie was the best straight pooler ever and basically the best he ever did over like a 40 year period was 526.
money or not that number is going to be insanely tough to beat by anybody.i would think it stands forever.
again though for 50,000 i would dedicate all my spare time to trying to do it.i would feel extremely fortunate to pull it off.especially on a 9ft which is harder than what he did it on.
i would almost think i could do it before i could run 294 on a diamond again.
 
john schmidt said:
i love the idea and i would be first in line to try.
i will say this though to run that many is so tough and unlikely and frankly there is only about 10 people who have the ability to even come close.
to do it is next to impossible.to do it on film knowing youll get 50,000 makes it even tougher.
if somebody would have told willie you run over 500 ever you get 50,000 ,believe me when he had a breakshot at about 460 it would have felt as hard as throwing a hubcap through a coinslot.
think about it.willie was the best straight pooler ever and basically the best he ever did over like a 40 year period was 526.
money or not that number is going to be insanely tough to beat by anybody.i would think it stands forever.
again though for 50,000 i would dedicate all my spare time to trying to do it.i would feel extremely fortunate to pull it off.especially on a 9ft which is harder than what he did it on.
i would almost think i could do it before i could run 294 on a diamond again.
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I could be completely off base here, but I think if you spent several months playing 14.1 after a while you would be in such a zone you would forget about the pressure. I think its just a matter of justifying the time spent on trying to do it, which brings me back to the money. If I were a rich guy (which I'm not) I wouldn't spend all my money on some tournament that no one is going to remember I would bank roll a competition like this. Filming a run of 526+ would be the greatest single achievement in the history of the game. People would talk about it for decades making my 50k well worth the investment.
 
I like the idea as well, but could it be said that too much is made of beating Mosconi's run? Not in the sense that people are always going on about it - if anything straight pool doesn't get anything like the coverage it deserves - but when people start talking about records.

It goes without saying that Mosconi proved himself in competition over and over again, and 526 on any table is incredible, but it was on an 8ft table with reasonably generous pockets wasn't it? Anyone challenging the run today would be playing on a 9ft table, as John says, so it's tough to draw equivalence here.

If everyone's playing on Diamonds then running 526 would be like jumping to the moon. 294 on a Diamond would be the new target on those tables. Who has the highest run on a 9ft GC? Maybe Engert at 491? I just find it strange that this is overlooked whenever this record is discussed.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea, and congrats again to John on running 294 - if you'll ship to the UK you can put me down for a DVD as well. That kind of achievement deserves some recognition.

Now if someone could just fund some kind of straight pool/snooker challenge between John and Ronnie O'Sullivan it might well be the coolest event imaginable. It would at least bring both games some attention in the US...
 
dangerousdave: i was about to mention that. the rules would have to be specific to keep a bunch of yahoos from building a table with 20" pockets just for the prize money.
 
Good idea.

I always read or see on video "well he did it on a 4x8" or "what do I get". The prize fund would make it a put up or shut up.

I've always said if Willie Mosconi's run only happened because of the 4x8 table somebody would have already done it.

Granted I don't know every pool player in the universe but if John Schmidt could do it how sweet would that be?

I've heard Nick Varner has the high run (don't know the number) in more modern times (70's to present) anything to that?
 
i sold my 9' gold crown and found an 8' venturaII pro, table on craigslist. playing straight on my 8' has all kinds of difficulty that i did not encounter on my gold crown. it's easier to scratch in the corner pockets on an 8' table when breaking in 14.1 using hard follow. also, quite often the broken balls will bounce off the rails and coagulate back in the center of the table. other times i get a beautiful spread on the balls but because the table is smaller, it's more congested and there is no good shot. :mad: i'd much rather play straight on a 9' table.
 
You could be onto something Marop, but there are a few things to think about before being sure of whether such a contest would work or get many participants :)

Mosconi's high run of 526 consists of 37 consecutive succesful racks in a row, with another 8 balls on top of that again, but!... one thing to remember is, Willie actually quit the run when he hit 525 because of exhaustion and/or boredom after running balls constantly for something like 3 1/2 hrs or whatever it was, and I'd heard before that he could've easily kept on going, but that is something that we'll just never know.

Now a few things other things to consider and I think that John would agree with this to a fair extent to take into account....

- Mosconi's run was apparently on a 4x8 Brunswick with 5" pockets, but the balls were clay and the cloth was a heavier napped cloth like what is used in snooker.

- Nowadays all the pros are used to shooting on lighter, napless cloth like Simonis, etc, with lighter phenolic resin billiard balls and better quality cushion rubber, etc, and so it's a bit more difficult to try and accurately and fairly match or beat the run.

- It's not just a question of being able to run 526 balls, it's a question of whether any players have got the physical and mental stamina, as well as the skill and stroke to be able to concentrate and focus on long enough to continuously run such a high number of consecutive racks?

- Straight pool is the most demanding discipline in pool and a simple lapse in concentration from exhaustion or whatever can and does make a different between either making the ball and getting good or missing the pocket and going back to your chair.


It's a possibility and if there was a big enough prize fund built up, then yes, you'd probably get a high number of players willing to give it a shot to try and win all the cheese and I would love to see such a competition being held, but to be perfectly honest, I can't help get the feeling that too many players nowadays that simply haven't or don't play enough straight pool to be a serious contender for such the record and as John has said, there are maybe 10 - 15 players that could really give it a Mosconi's record a run for the bankroll :)

Either way though, if such a competition could be set up and generate enough interest, then it would definitely get a thumbs up from me :thumbup:

Willie
 
I think i'ts a great idea. If a person is lucky enough to run 526 do you think they should unscrew their cue and stop, like Willie did or didn't do?
 
Let's not forget that Mosconi's 526 was the highest he ever ran officially in front of a crowd of onlookers. In practice he ran 589 and also a 608.

Mosconi never had an incentive to break any records. If he knew he was going to get a big cash prize I have no doubt he would have ran 700 or whatever he had to beat.
 
TheWizard said:
... one thing to remember is, Willie actually quit the run when he hit 525 because of exhaustion and/or boredom after running balls constantly for something like 3 1/2 hrs or whatever it was ...
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On page 167 of his autobiography, "Willie's Game," Willie (with co-author Stanley Cohen) writes: "I finally missed a difficult cut shot, but by that time I was weary; it was almost a relief to have it come to an end." He also says the run took two hours and ten minutes.
 
Mr441 said:
Let's not forget that Mosconi's 526 was the highest he ever ran officially in front of a crowd of onlookers. In practice he ran 589 and also a 608.

Mosconi never had an incentive to break any records. If he knew he was going to get a big cash prize I have no doubt he would have ran 700 or whatever he had to beat.
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Great point! According to Charlie Ursitti, who was there, he quit one of those higher runs without missing because he wanted to go to dinner.

Mosconi greatness as a player shouldn't be measured by his high run. Other players have already beaten that record - Babe Cranfield and that New York guy whose name I can't remember. I can't remember his name because he never touched Willie in tournaments, where it counted. Neither did Cranfield for that matter, and he was surely a great 14.1 player.

There may have been others. These runs weren't witnessed properly, or took place over 2 days, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Someday the run will be broken - maybe John Schmidt will do it. 294 on a super-tough table is already in my mind just as great an accomplishment. But I'd rather spend money to support 14.1 tournaments than a prize fund for the record.
 
Rich93 said:
Mosconi greatness as a player shouldn't be measured by his high run. Other players have already beaten that record - Babe Cranfield and that New York guy whose name I can't remember. I can't remember his name because he never touched Willie in tournaments, where it counted.
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Mike Eufemia
 
just want to say

first off im thrilled you guys like 14.1 and even care enough about it to write in this forum.
im not disagreeing or trying to argue but i have some ideas on this subject.
i dont know for sure but ive heard from old timers mosconi brought his own balls for shows.
i dont blame him.in the 50s when he did this run im almost positive it was done with plastic balls not clay.and the cloth was ok.for the record clean clay balls might be better because i heard they would not suffer bad contact or what we americans call a skid.
chalk in between the contact points is almost always what causes bad contact so clay or plastic i would think would not matter.clay could skid too.
i also would be willing to believe mosconi polished the balls thats why he brought them himself and asked to play on good or new cloth.
i know it sounds romantic to say he played on nap cloth,clay balls ran 526 quit cause he was tired etc.actually nap cloth lets the cueball grab better and motor through the balls to open them.
in reality i feel he played on a perfect table with polished plastic balls,new cloth and missed at the end.all that being said that is a unreal run.
the thing about somebody doing it today is we hardly play 14.1 so less chances.also to do it now because there is money on it would make it much harder.
remember again this was about his highest run in his whole life and rightfully so.its an unbelievable feat.
nobody today is going to just break it like its a hanger.
think about engert,hohmann,sigel,varner,hopkins,west,martin,garcia, ortmann,souqet,mizerak,diliberto,rempe,harriman,vandeberg,mika,neils myself etc.
if you take all the innings weve taken in practice between all of us its in the thousands and nobody has ran 526.
for the record ive played on a 4x8 and its for sure easier again not trying to argue im just saying its easier for several reasons.

if anybody would like to take 50 innings on a 9ft against my 50 innings on 8 ft and see who ran more total they got me.

by the way i ran 180 plus on a diamond bartable no glove borrowed stick this year on first try and i would have to say the bartable might be easier than any table for 14.1.
anyway im just saying that to break that number with money on the line with a camera on you knowing how big of a deal it is, believe me its going to be so tough im almost afraid someones going to put up the money and then im going to have to dedicate some serious time only to realize i still couldnt do it after 10 years of trying.lol
not to sound like a jerk but the 294 i just ran on a diamond i think will stand a long time.i hope.
i think i should let guys take one try for 10 dollars and if they run 295 or more i put up 5000 .they can take as many tries as they want on diamond at 10 dollars a whack.i might get to retire or blow 5,000 it would be fun to sweat though.
 
john schmidt said:
....
i dont know for sure but ive heard from old timers mosconi brought his own balls for shows.
i dont blame him.in the 50s when he did this run im almost positive it was done with plastic balls not clay.and the cloth was ok.for the record clean clay balls might be better because i heard they would not suffer bad contact or what we americans call a skid.
chalk in between the contact points is almost always what causes bad contact so clay or plastic i would think would not matter.clay could skid too.
i also would be willing to believe mosconi polished the balls thats why he brought them himself and asked to play on good or new cloth.
i know it sounds romantic to say he played on nap cloth,clay balls ran 526 quit cause he was tired etc.actually nap cloth lets the cueball grab better and motor through the balls to open them.
in reality i feel he played on a perfect table with polished plastic balls,new cloth and missed at the end.all that being said that is a unreal run.
.....
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I saw Mosconi on two occasions about 1963-64. He did bring his own balls and they did look polished. They were plastic balls then. The cloth was new - these were new rooms so the cloth was new on all tables, but I feel pretty sure he would have insisted on new cloth if the room wasn't new.
 
any challenge to the mosconi record would have to be sponsored and video monitored by a reputable outfit like accustats, on a specific, agreed upon table/cloth et... that is only used for this purpose. even if the high run is not broken, surely they could sell the lesser run videos to compensate them for their efforts and time.... players would be invited to the table and have an entire day to break the record. there may be no need for prize money, because anyone who breaks that record will automatically get a cut of the video profits and no doubt more endorsement contracts than they can shake a pool cue at which would make the $50K seem like peanuts.
 
DangerousDave said:
... Who has the highest run on a 9ft GC? Maybe Engert at 491? ...
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I'm not sure which year Cranfield got his 768 in practice, but it may well have been on a GC.

Mike Eufemia, in his unpublished book on 14.1, is quite adamant about having run 625. He also claims to have run 555. Here is some of what he had to say:

On FEBRUARY 2, 1960. in a scheduled pocket billiard exhibition match between Mr. Eufemia and Mr. Michael Aherne at the Logan Billiard Academy at Logan and Fulton Sts. Brooklyn N.Y. Mr. Eufemia won the lag, forcing his opponent to make the opening break. Mr. Eufemia made the first shot and continued shooting without missing until he had pocketed six hundred and twenty five (625) balls. This feat was accomplished on a world tournament size 4 1/2' x9' table before a standing-room only audience. They were as vocal as they were appreciative of this historic feat.
This run still stands as the world high run record.​

I'd guess that in 1960 it was not a Gold Crown.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I'm not sure which year Cranfield got his 768 in practice, but it may well have been on a GC.

Mike Eufemia, in his unpublished book on 14.1, is quite adamant about having run 625. He also claims to have run 555. Here is some of what he had to say:

On FEBRUARY 2, 1960. in a scheduled pocket billiard exhibition match between Mr. Eufemia and Mr. Michael Aherne at the Logan Billiard Academy at Logan and Fulton Sts. Brooklyn N.Y. Mr. Eufemia won the lag, forcing his opponent to make the opening break. Mr. Eufemia made the first shot and continued shooting without missing until he had pocketed six hundred and twenty five (625) balls. This feat was accomplished on a world tournament size 4 1/2' x9' table before a standing-room only audience. They were as vocal as they were appreciative of this historic feat.
This run still stands as the world high run record.​

I'd guess that in 1960 it was not a Gold Crown.
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What else does he say in that unpublished book?

Where might one get their hands on the book?
 
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