Pro Pool Does Not Exist

[runouteasy]

It's a very attractive idea, except it would make the handicapping problem even bigger (i.e. more money at stake, the more likely people are to sandbag). Of course, the answer is always "a better handicapping system", but no handicapping system can outdo a person determined to cheat it.

Handicapping is a bit tricky sure. Honestly I'm just a middle aged guy who can play a little and I know most all the names and abilities of shortstop to pro in the US. If SVB played my 9 games to 5 I'd throw a couple thousand at it. If 200 others would...you got a $400,000 event.

 

[bfdlad]

Just my opinion on a couple of the thoughts here.

What defines a Pro Player?? = I think this gets a little mixed up sometimes. Pro level player and actual Pro Player. Shane is a Pro Player because that's how he makes his money. Active around the world playing in Tourneys and making his living. Then you have someone like CJ Wiley, Pro level player/former pro player. CJ plays Pro Level but does not make his living from playing in pool tourneys. Same could be said for Dan Louie of Washington. Hope you can see where I make the difference there.

Tourneys that are handicapped = To me you can't do this at a top level of play. you either play even or don't play. As a previous poster said there will always be someone sandbagging or at least trying to until they get found out and by that time they have already pocketed winnings. There also is always going to be the debate as to what skill level people are and this also can cause problems and people getting pissed off. I just think its making things too complicated.

Open to anyone = As has also been mentioned in this thread, I think unless there is a good sponsor who is willing to commit to x-amount of $$ per event that will make the prize $$ decent the top players need the dead money. Just because of the expenses for the tourney and make it worth while going.

That's all and Happy New Year to all.

 

[lost]

I get your point, but my point is that it aint just the money that makes you a pro or not, ask the rodeo guys or the dart pro's or the horse shoe guys, etc...,

If the Pro Pool players would find a way to supplement their incomes, (even part time work) then they would have a better attitude towards the game and the amateur players, that would help the image of the game also.

If it doesn't pay you well, its a hobby and you have t support it somehow or not do it.

Pool is primarily a hobby. I'm over 60 years old, and many of the best pool players I've known over the years never played pool for a living. They were frankly too smart, and had college degrees and went on to raise a family and have financially successful careers. In other words they didn't "hang around" pool halls doing something they obvious knew had no future.

 

[krupa]

In a market economy, it's all about growth. Stagnant means exactly that, not growing.

It doesn't matter how much you have currently, it's about growth.

I tend to not agree with that mindset because there's only so far you can grow. Pool hasn't come any where close to it's growth limit yet though.

Jaden

Ok, so do you have proof that the leagues aren't growing? I don't have hard numbers, but according to my LO NAPA is growing really fast. He could be wrong (though he communicates with the national office a lot) and things could have changed since I spoke to him, but I don't see stagnation in my area.

 

[Neil]

Sponsors do want numbers, but not numbers of participants, they want numbers of spectators. The rodeo doesn't have large fields, nor does bass fishing, darts or volley ball, they just have followings that can be marketed to and that's all sponsors care about.

Good point.

 

[Jaden]

Individual leagues may be growing.

Ok, so do you have proof that the leagues aren't growing? I don't have hard numbers, but according to my LO NAPA is growing really fast. He could be wrong (though he communicates with the national office a lot) and things could have changed since I spoke to him, but I don't see stagnation in my area.

Individual leagues I'm sure are growing. Overall participation in leagues does not appear to be growing. This is me talking out of my ass, I have no hard numbers.

I had done a paper a few years ago in graduate school where I had looked at the numbers for the previous several years though and I did not see a steady trend of growth if I am remembering correctly.

Jaden

 

[King T]

Your wrong about one thing..,

Pool is primarily a hobby. I'm over 60 years old, and many of the best pool players I've known over the years never played pool for a living. They were frankly too smart, and had college degrees and went on to raise a family and have financially successful careers. In other words they didn't "hang around" pool halls doing something they obvious knew had no future.

There are lots of people doing what they Love and not making much money at it and pool is no different. I have worked with singers and dancers, artist who's painting I didn't think they could make a living selling, I LOVE JAZZ and only the top Jazz musicians can make good money, yet they continue to do what they love and many are happier than the "frankly to smart" guys you described

If the pool players that cant earn enough from pool would stop blaming the game they claim they love and go to work to support their hobby/love until it pays for itself the game would be better off.

I know lots of actors to be working part or full time, jazz musicians working at UPS and Pro Pool player to be holding down full time jobs and playing league to feed the pool hunger.

 

[Mr. Bond]

I have been reading the various threads on pro pool. There never has been any pro pool and never will be...

Not to nitpick but yes, there used to be very pro pool.
And the pro players were citywide, nationwide, and sometimes worldwide superstars.

With money, proper management and promotion, it could once again be that way. But as it stands right now, there is nary a person on earth who understands how to accomplish this. Apparently.

Give me a good budget and 2 years time and I could make it happen.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's better for one to go without pay than many.

It's not rocket science, it does take professional marketing and advertising experience AND (here's the kicker) it does take the willingness to work with no pay - although, speaking as a player, it's better for one to go without compensation than many.

Not to nitpick but yes, there used to be very pro pool.
And the pro players were citywide, nationwide, and sometimes worldwide superstars.

With money, proper management and promotion, it could once again be that way. But as it stands right now, there is nary a person on earth who understands how to accomplish this. Apparently.

Give me a good budget and 2 years time and I could make it happen.

 

[ceebee]

It's a very attractive idea, except it would make the handicapping problem even bigger (i.e. more money at stake, the more likely people are to sandbag). Of course, the answer is always "a better handicapping system", but no handicapping system can outdo a person determined to cheat it.

Good Post... Question? How do we control the sandbaggin in handicapped play?

If we have tournaments, where different skill level players can win at their level of play, how do we keep everyone honest. Having events where lower skill levels can compete helps the whole event.

Maybe we can BRAINSTORM this by getting some ideas listed, talked about & fine tuned.

 

[Banks]

Good Post... Question? How do we control the sandbaggin in handicapped play?

If we have tournaments, where different skill level players can win at their level of play, how do we keep everyone honest. Having events where lower skill levels can compete helps the whole event.

Maybe we can BRAINSTORM this by getting some ideas listed, talked about & fine tuned.

Make it not worth their while. Also, you can use a handicapped system - make two difference tournaments. If you're obviously crushing it in the weak tournament, you get moved up. Base it off of known handicaps, too. Shallow payout for the "players" and deeper payout for the weaker ones. Not gonna have too many good players spending a night out when first pays the same as in-the-money in another tournament.

The Greed is the Teacher.

Edit: I've got this fine-tuned, for the most part. Just waiting to start it in a few months.

 

[Jaden]

you take the 4 highest finishes of any player.

Good Post... Question? How do we control the sandbaggin in handicapped play?

If we have tournaments, where different skill level players can win at their level of play, how do we keep everyone honest. Having events where lower skill levels can compete helps the whole event.

Maybe we can BRAINSTORM this by getting some ideas listed, talked about & fine tuned.

You have a rating system like that used on the Mezz west state tour. Points for finishes.

You take the four highest finishes out of the last 8 and you compare the points of all the players and you have a 3 tiered handicap system based off of that.

If people dump, they aren't cashing so there's no point to sand bagging.

Besides if a pro level player wants to sand bag to get a game or two on the wire, more power to him.

Let him be dead money for 3 tourneys to get a game on the wire.

The point of handicapping isn't to make it fair to lesser players, it's to make the perception of fairness to increase interest and participation.

Jaden

 

[ceebee]

You have a rating system like that used on the Mezz west state tour. Points for finishes.

You take the four highest finishes out of the last 8 and you compare the points of all the players and you have a 3 tiered handicap system based off of that.

If people dump, they aren't cashing so there's no point to sand bagging.

Besides if a pro level player wants to sand bag to get a game or two on the wire, more power to him.

Let him be dead money for 3 tourneys to get a game on the wire.

The point of handicapping isn't to make it fair to lesser players, it's to make the perception of fairness to increase interest and participation.

Jaden

Absolutely... good vision for handicapping

 

[Neil]

Make it not worth their while. Also, you can use a handicapped system - make two difference tournaments. If you're obviously crushing it in the weak tournament, you get moved up. Base it off of known handicaps, too. Shallow payout for the "players" and deeper payout for the weaker ones. Not gonna have too many good players spending a night out when first pays the same as in-the-money in another tournament.

The Greed is the Teacher.

Edit: I've got this fine-tuned, for the most part. Just waiting to start it in a few months.

I hope I'm missing something here....but the way I read your post, you are saying that there no longer is any incentive to practice and get better. You can make more money by not practicing and just playing in your events and hoping to get lucky. Tell me again how that is any different than league play, and how that is supposed to help pool??

 

[Banks]

I hope I'm missing something here....but the way I read your post, you are saying that there no longer is any incentive to practice and get better. You can make more money by not practicing and just playing in your events and hoping to get lucky. Tell me again how that is any different than league play, and how that is supposed to help pool??

I think you got it backwards. The Low tournament pays deeper with a smaller entry. The High tournament has more money and doesn't pay as many spots. The Low tournament first place would be equivilent to something like being just in the money in the High tournament.

Don't even get me into the "Why don't people play for a million hours in a row and get better" argument.

 

[Neil]

I think you got it backwards. The Low tournament pays deeper with a smaller entry. The High tournament has more money and doesn't pay as many spots. The Low tournament first place would be equivilent to something like being just in the money in the High tournament.

Don't even get me into the "Why don't people play for a million hours in a row and get better" argument.

Aah, gotcha. OK, that sounds a lot better.

 

[Weber]

Our local league tournament has no entry fee and usually the payouts are around $20,000. This years is $18,000 total.