Pro statistics: Are they available? Are you interested?

arsenius

arsenius

Nothing ever registers...
Silver Member
I'm sure most people here have heard the statistic when watching accustats that when a Pro gets ball in hand playing 9 ball, he will run out 90% of the time. I think I have heard this statistic for 8 ball to be the same.

Other common statistics are B&Rs, balls on the break, scratches on the break, snapped nines on the break. I'm not sure of the numbers for these.

Anyways, I was wondering two things about stats for the pros. First, I know accustats has been compiling them for years. Are these available anywhere, in an aggregated form? I'm not really curious about watching one video and seeing two players' stats for a match. I'm wondering if you can see all stats for all players in a tournament, or all players over the course of a year, lifetime, etc... I'm pretty sure you can't, though I would be thrilled if someone proved me wrong. Also, I would be interested in seeing, number-wise, the difference between "Super Pros," "Normal Pros," "Shortstops" etc... Joe Tucker's Guaranteed Improvement has a little bit of this for the drills, though I don't know how accurate it is.

The second thing I am wondering, is whether or not anyone would be interested in something like this. Stats are huge in football and basketball. In golf you can compare players by how many strokes they are over or under par. If more detailed statistics about a player were talked about during the color commentary, would that make it more interesting for non-players? I think it would.

I think this information might actually be more available for non-pro players due to leagues like the APA. It seems like some of the information recorded about league players can be pretty detailed, down to whether or not a safety was played intentionally. I don't think the details of this information is public, but it seems like if we can get it for amateurs, you aught to be able to get it for Pros as well.
 
arsenius said:
... Anyways, I was wondering two things about stats for the pros. First, I know accustats has been compiling them for years. Are these available anywhere, in an aggregated form? ....
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In the 1980s, Accu-stats began by publishing a monthly newsletter of the statistics for all of the matches on the pro tour. At that time, there seemed to be a much more active tour than these days. The newsletter listed all the stats you mentioned and some others. It lasted about three years. Pat Fleming figured out that it was easier to video tape matches and do the statistics later than to train and pay local people to keep statistics. Then he figured out that it was easier to sell tapes of the matches than to sell a newsletter of statistics. Then he stopped doing the newsletter and started improving the video production.

Maybe Pat would be willing to republish the newsletters. They include the era when Jean Balukas was playing in the men's events.
 
I don't profess to be an expert here... but I'll add what I know.

The only stats that I'm aware of are... in Phil Capelle's Play Your Best 9-Ball book, Phil reports some stats that he compiled after watching some 500 games of 9-ball being played by the pros (% of 9-ball breaks... % of BnRs... etc.)... the games/matches were video-taped by Accustats... and the only other stats that I have seen are those on the IPT website... for break 'n runs during the few IPT tournaments that were held.
 
The lack of statistics in pool is a huge setback. Accustats just gives a snapshot of how the players are performing that match, and the formula used to calculate the % doesn't attract the casual observer. Simple stats are what is needed. Like you said, B&R %, Win % if ball made & if ball not made. Others include head-to-head matchups, win % if opponent doesn't pocket ball on break. Pretty fair to say that these stats probably couldn't be 100% complete, but at least compile these stats for UPA events and other recognized professional tournaments. Think this would require either significant volunteer time or a referee at every table also keeping stats.
 
Money lists

The stats would be nice to see for some people, myself included. One other thing I would like to see is what each Male pro players yearly winnings amount to. In one of the three major Pool Magazines they have a running list of what the Female pros are earning (tournament tallies) and wonder why they don't do the same for the men. All I have been able to find on the men are the point totals and there subsequent rankings.
 
senor said:
The lack of statistics in pool is a huge setback. Accustats just gives a snapshot of how the players are performing that match, and the formula used to calculate the % doesn't attract the casual observer. Simple stats are what is needed. ... Think this would require either significant volunteer time or a referee at every table also keeping stats.
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The full statistics thing was tried by Accu-stats for three or four years. It did not sell well enough to continue. And as Accu-stats discovered, a video tape of a match running at 3x or 7x speed lets you do the stats much faster than doing it live.
 
Say what you will

about the IPT and Kevin, but they were doing so good things too. Like the stats they kept, refining with each tournament, the presentation of the scoresheets for each group with the countries flags for each player and their picture. I liked a lot of what they were doing, and they seemed to be getting better.

I think if it had continued, the historical data from their tournaments would have been very valuable to the Pool world in general. I enjoyed many of the videos during the short time I was a member.

It would be nice if it could resurrect on a smaller more stable long range plan, and continue.
 
They might have even been better. So many numbers to track, so many players -- they did a great job while it lasted!

smashmouth said:
IPT stats were/are amazing, they were fast approaching an ESPN level of stat recording
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Thanks guys, I appreciate the history lesson on Accustats. I had wondered where the name came from because stats are hardly mentioned in the current videos. It sounds like with the IPT, they were recording some stats also, which is interesting.

I understand that these things would not sell on their own, and I wouldn't expect them to. But what about my second question. No one seems to have addressed it very much. Do you think more extensive statistics (along the lines of football) would be an interesting part of players' backgrounds during color commentary?

Also, now I have another question. Is it possible to have the players record these things themselves. If, at the beginning of each match, they were given a scoresheet to record B&Rs, etc. would they do it? Is this something that could be tried for a whole tour? I can see where this might be resisted by some players. But wouldn't increase the professionalism of the sport to have a written record of the events in any given tournament?

Kevin, you can find yearly winnings right here on azbilliards.com. Check out this link. However, it doesn't have winnings for all pro players, just the ones that happen to get recorded. I'm not sure how exactly the numbers get reported.

Smashmouth, I wasn't sure whether your comment was serious or not. Do you think the ESPN stats are good? Are they available somewhere?
 
smashmouth said:
yes, for the big sports ESPN stats are the gold standard
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Understood. I thought you were talking about billiards. You had me scratching my head.;-)
 
One of the most interesting statistics I remember from the days when Accu-Stats was still compiling them was that the player breaking won less than 50% of the games in which he broke. This was an average across all players I think.
 
cigardave said:
I don't profess to be an expert here... but I'll add what I know.

The only stats that I'm aware of are... in Phil Capelle's Play Your Best 9-Ball book, Phil reports some stats that he compiled after watching some 500 games of 9-ball being played by the pros (% of 9-ball breaks... % of BnRs... etc.)... the games/matches were video-taped by Accustats... and the only other stats that I have seen are those on the IPT website... for break 'n runs during the few IPT tournaments that were held.
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Capelle's stats are interesting but they can only be used to describe the tournament they were compiled in, and if I remember correctly those 500 games were taken from one tournament. It doesn't take into account that pros break and run more or less depending on the table, or that the level of play can change from tournament to tournament. So his data can not be used to catagorically state how pros play 9 ball.

A while ago I went through the accu-stats catalogue and compiled looked at the stats Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland.

Over 26 matches Efren averaged an .891 with one perfect match and eleven matches at .900 or higher.

Over 20 matches for Earl, he averaged .869.

Just some interesting info, but I don't mean to state this as definitive info for either player, as I would require far more than 20 matches to draw any meaningful conclusions.
 
the porblem is the same old song"There isnt enough $$$ in pool" to pay people to keep the stats or a business that can make enough $$$ to hire the statications to do the work. sad.
 
Phil saw this post and emailed me asking me to post a quick reply. His survey was actually based on matches over multiple tournaments...

Phil Capelle’s 500 Game Study
26 Matches – 18 Tournaments
1990 U.S Open, November
1992 U.S. Open, September
1993 U.S. Open, September
1994 U.S. Open, September (2)
1995 U.S. Open, September
1998 U.S. Open, September
1997 U.S. Open, September (2)
1999 U.S. Open, September (3)
2000 U.S. Open, September
Sands Regency Open 12 (2)
Sands Regency Open 15 (2)
Sands Regency Open 16
Sands Regency Open 17
Sands Regency Open 21
Sands Regency Open 22 (2)
Sands Regency Open 23 (2)
Sands Regency Open 23
Sands Regency Open 29
Bicycle Club Invitational, June, 1992
 
AzHousePro said:
Phil saw this post and emailed me asking me to post a quick reply. His survey was actually based on matches over multiple tournaments...

Phil Capelle’s 500 Game Study
26 Matches – 18 Tournaments
1990 U.S Open, November
1992 U.S. Open, September
1993 U.S. Open, September
1994 U.S. Open, September (2)
1995 U.S. Open, September
1998 U.S. Open, September
1997 U.S. Open, September (2)
1999 U.S. Open, September (3)
2000 U.S. Open, September
Sands Regency Open 12 (2)
Sands Regency Open 15 (2)
Sands Regency Open 16
Sands Regency Open 17
Sands Regency Open 21
Sands Regency Open 22 (2)
Sands Regency Open 23 (2)
Sands Regency Open 23
Sands Regency Open 29
Bicycle Club Invitational, June, 1992
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Some more stats from Phil's book...

Break and runs ocurred 28% of the time

Archer and Strickland had the highest BnR %s... 31.7% and 32.7%, respectively

Note: both "far exceeded the average pro"... according to Phil
 
arsenius said:
I'm sure most people here have heard the statistic when watching accustats that when a Pro gets ball in hand playing 9 ball, he will run out 90% of the time.
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Arsenius,
I will tell this tired old tale one more time.

One of my instructors spent a couple of weeks in the Philippines with Efren Reyes. They decided to break 100 racks each of nine-ball, take ball in hand for the first shot, and see how many racks they would run "against the ghost."

Efren ran 82 out of the 100 racks (I believe my instructor ran 80).

I think any top pro would be hard pressed to reach the 90% figure you present.

More interesting to me was when I asked what percentage of those 82 racks did Efren run exactly as planned (without getting out of line or wrong-sided and having to make a more difficult recovery shot). I was told about 10% of the 82 racks went exactly as planned. Even the best players in the world must constantly recover from positional "errors." They do so in a fashion well above us mere mortals.
 
Williebetmore said:
Arsenius,
They decided to break 100 racks each of nine-ball, take ball in hand for the first shot, and see how many racks they would run "against the ghost."

Efren ran 82 out of the 100 racks (I believe my instructor ran 80).

I think any top pro would be hard pressed to reach the 90% figure you present.
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If Efren ran out 82% of the time with ball in hand right after the break, I would think that many pros could average 90% run outs with ball in hand at any time.
 
These are not authoritative stats, just some estimates based on some observations and scattered data.

BOB = Ball made On Break

IPT 8-Ball
BOB around 70% for better breakers.
B&R around 40% for top 10 players.
Run Out on First Open Table Visit around 55-60% based on stats above.
Run Out with Ball In Hand after break around 80%.

9-Ball
BOB around 80-95% depending on table and racking method. Eurotour tapped racks have very high BOB% it seems.
B&R around 25-30% usually but maybe 40% with tapped racks.
Run Out after break shot approx 40%.
Run out with BIH after break shot approx 80-85%.

Colin
 
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