Please explain the difference between the two. I thought Dan Janes made Joss and was considered a custom cue. True? Not? Otheres are farmed out as well? Please explain. Thanks for any info.
Production vs Custom Cues - Explain
- Thread starter BarTableMan
- Start date
The line is completely blurred anymore and many have wide ranging acceptance of the term custom.
To me custom means you go meet a cue maker, hit a ton of cues, learn about him and he about you and then you pick piece by piece and spec by spec how you want the cue built and he builds it precisely to those specs for you.
Anything you buy, pre-build and sight unseen w/ generic specs by someone....anyone, who biulds cue in succession, is a production cue.
IMO.
But I'm probably at the extreme in that view.
I don't think going to a Chevy dealers and saying I want one with metallic green paint and white interior is buying a custom car.
To me custom means you go meet a cue maker, hit a ton of cues, learn about him and he about you and then you pick piece by piece and spec by spec how you want the cue built and he builds it precisely to those specs for you.
Anything you buy, pre-build and sight unseen w/ generic specs by someone....anyone, who biulds cue in succession, is a production cue.
IMO.
But I'm probably at the extreme in that view.
I don't think going to a Chevy dealers and saying I want one with metallic green paint and white interior is buying a custom car.
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Feel free to elaborate, what the hell are we doing here anyway ?
You think what, custom is picking a picture and weight out of a catalog?
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If a cue maker does everything, its a custom cue. To me if you have an apprentice or someone else working with you, it should be considered a custom workshop cue. If the shop is larger than say 5 employees(Schon and Southwest I believe both have 5 employees), it should be considered a production cue.
Feel free to elaborate, what the hell are we doing here anyway ?
You think what, custom is picking a picture and weight out of a catalog?
Depends on the buyer. For me, no, but certainly yes, it can be and is "custom" to many people.
Many will claim to own custom cues in this forum, but they bought that cue already made, already designed, already produced and not to their own specifications. Is it "custom"? I dunno. I just think it's silly to get bent out of shape over it. I have no issue discussing it. But if somebody want to ridicule another's opinion about it, degrade somebody, or claim that they "know" the truth of the matter while others are wrong, I have an issue with that. I'll just say it's silly.
If one buys a Langlitz leather jacket used, is it custom? It was made for somebody else, not for the used buyer. So....I dunno.
I do have cues that most would say are custom. I have others that are not. None were custom made for me. I don't happen to tell anybody, not even casually, that any of them are custom cues.
I have a Langlitz jacket, and a Schott. Both of them were originally custom made but I bought them used. I don't tell people they are custom if I discuss them. I tell them they are vintage or collectible.
The only billiard equipment I tell people I have that is custom is my case. That's because I made it for me, custom to my specifications.
I general I avoid the term custom though. It's a bit ambiguous.
It is after all the mass acceptance of a term that gives it it's definition anyway. Many would call the selection of weight, tip diameter, tip, and wrap a custom cue whether one likes it or not.
What are we doing here? Some engaging in business, some engaging in hobby, some just passing the time......and I am sure there are other stories.
Custom cues are made in a shop with only one or a few guys, production cues are made in a factory with many workers.
I don't think actually going to a cue maker and having your cue made for you personally is necessary for a cue to be called custom, but if you can't name the guy(s) who made your cue, its probably not a custom.
I don't think actually going to a cue maker and having your cue made for you personally is necessary for a cue to be called custom, but if you can't name the guy(s) who made your cue, its probably not a custom.
Balabushka and Balner had their wives working for/with them. Janes had Stroud and then Scruggs then mike Sigel and now his son, among others. Scruggs had Frey. The list goes on and on. One can't even tell who really made what in many cases. A lot of the sneaky cues being sold with the TS logo are probably actually Frey as an example.
I understand what you are saying though. It's at least a way to define it. But if Southwest hires somebody to keep up with all those orders......OMG.... a production cue maker? :yikes:
I just think it's better to not get uptight about it.
JOSS is a great example as was pointed out by the OP. Most consider them a production maker. At what point did they become that? What JOSS cues are considered custom?
I could ask the same for Schon. By published accounts Evan Clarke has one of a kind forearms spliced 25-30 years ago sitting near his desk that he is contemplating all these years, deciding how to build them out. When he does finally......well....what do you call such a cue?
It's not an easy thing to define. The JOSS thing does not bother me, call them what you will, but I have a higher regard it seems for Janes and JOSS than most seem to even though they give lip service to his historic status and that of JOSS.
I have yet to have a cue built for me. When I do it will not be one of the "greats" because I can't afford it. But the truth is I won't really care, it's just as well. The cue will be just as custom either way. So does it really mean as much as some people want it to? I don't think so.
i miss my langlitz every now and again. mine was custom, just not for me.:wink:
come to think of it, i had a goat skin one that felt great. i wonder if anyone has done a goatskin wrap.
The term "custom cue" does not really have a single accepted definition.
a synonym for the general idea might be "quality cue',but this too lacks currency or precision of definition
Handmade or production might be introduced,but these are not accurate either,Everyone uses some machinery along with some hand work.
Certain companies have several persons working on different task,some more some less
Others tend to reflect the art or style of the individual who is associated with the cue.
Some people prefer the exact representation of a photograph over a hand
drawn picture,they say"why pay more for something that isn't as accurate a representation
of the object,others enjoy paying more because they appreciate the talent and design of the artist.
Most often a person caring little for art or personality ask the question in this or another form,and an unfruitful discussion of semantics follows resulting in no clear cut answer to the question.
I am satisfied to play with a Schon cue when the money is on the line,but I am also happy to see my $135 initial cost on my Balabushka increase to $15,000.
Most people love to play with their South West cue,but when they can make $1,000 to $2,000 profit the first day,they prefer the profit.Some like both playing and investment
The distinctive look ,feel and design of a Szamboti means huge profits in addition to pool playing pleasure, So art gets involved,art makes people happy,so why knock it?
If you like the cue ,buy it.If your taste reflects the taste of the most sophisticated buyers you can expect to have your good judgement result in a good investment as well
a synonym for the general idea might be "quality cue',but this too lacks currency or precision of definition
Handmade or production might be introduced,but these are not accurate either,Everyone uses some machinery along with some hand work.
Certain companies have several persons working on different task,some more some less
Others tend to reflect the art or style of the individual who is associated with the cue.
Some people prefer the exact representation of a photograph over a hand
drawn picture,they say"why pay more for something that isn't as accurate a representation
of the object,others enjoy paying more because they appreciate the talent and design of the artist.
Most often a person caring little for art or personality ask the question in this or another form,and an unfruitful discussion of semantics follows resulting in no clear cut answer to the question.
I am satisfied to play with a Schon cue when the money is on the line,but I am also happy to see my $135 initial cost on my Balabushka increase to $15,000.
Most people love to play with their South West cue,but when they can make $1,000 to $2,000 profit the first day,they prefer the profit.Some like both playing and investment
The distinctive look ,feel and design of a Szamboti means huge profits in addition to pool playing pleasure, So art gets involved,art makes people happy,so why knock it?
If you like the cue ,buy it.If your taste reflects the taste of the most sophisticated buyers you can expect to have your good judgement result in a good investment as well
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I would say that a cue is a custom if it was made to order. Essentially the work on the cue has not begun until an order was placed for it and the cue is then built to the specifications of the original buyer (wrap, veneers, material selection, weight etc.). That doesn't mean a custom shop can't have a catalog or that the maker can't have a bag of delrin butt caps, joint pins, or ferrules lying around. But it does mean that particular cue probably would not have been built at all if an order wasn't placed.
So I think a cue can be a custom even if it isn't in the hands of the original buyer and a custom cue can come out of a production shop.
So I think a cue can be a custom even if it isn't in the hands of the original buyer and a custom cue can come out of a production shop.
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this definition seems to make the cue custom if the maker
does what the customer tells him to do
the more the customer directs the project ,the more custom the cue
would be
this could fit someones definition,but it would not include quality or
reflect the personality of the cuemaker
i could tell some individual who never made a cue in his life to do this and that,
and according to this theory, it would be a custom cue even if it were lopsided
i find this unsatisfactory
does what the customer tells him to do
the more the customer directs the project ,the more custom the cue
would be
this could fit someones definition,but it would not include quality or
reflect the personality of the cuemaker
i could tell some individual who never made a cue in his life to do this and that,
and according to this theory, it would be a custom cue even if it were lopsided
i find this unsatisfactory
I agree with your other post but this one, if you buy a chopped and channeled car painted candy apple red from the guy across the street it is custom even if it has imperfections, if you bought a car that Chip Foose built it is a custom with the best parts and workmanship. They are both customs. One cost more because of the experience that went into it but they would both be "customs". In my opinion.
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Sorry you took it this way because it wasn't the way I meant it. As I said, no reason a custom can't be a catalog cue where the buyer had not much input at all except for perhaps weight, veneer choice, and wrap. Similarly, some buyers may order a one-off and leave the artistic design to the maker, perhaps just specifying the weight.
As for quality/value, I agree my post leaves this more or less out of the equation. I'm not sure it enters into it in that a catalog Gina will probably always command a higher price than a one-off Lucasi, given similar materials.
And BTW, I didn't specify it but I had assumed we were talking about cues made by an experienced cue maker with an expectation of at least reasonable quality. :wink:
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Yeah, but Foose didn't build it, he drew it.
Not a fan. Yes I build/have built. :wink:
It isn't the experience or quality anymore for him...it's just the name. Just like Jesse James selling what he calls his "original" designs for pipes, tanks, fenders, etc that are just reproductions of what was already done in the seventies.
In my opinion......
But anyway.....pool cues..... :thumbup:
Just had to comment on Foose....never liked his work....yes, he's famous.
You make a very good point but don't forget the "marketing" that went into the brand name "Chip Foose".
Yeah, but Foose didn't build it, he drew it.
Not a fan. Yes I build/have built. :wink:
It isn't the experience or quality anymore for him...it's just the name. Just like Jesse James selling what he calls his "original" designs for pipes, tanks, fenders, etc that are just reproductions.
In my opinion......
But anyway.....pool cues..... :thumbup:
Just had to comment on Foose....never liked his work....yes, he's famous.
You can use any "custom" builders shop you want. If you built it or you favorite builder to most people they would still be customs.
I have the extreme view if it isn't made specifically for me I wouldn't say it is a custom. I might say it was built by a custom maker, it was made in a small shop, or it was built by so and so.
I said EXACTLY the same thing you just said in a post a few months back on the same subject. I use the term "custom" when it refers to being made for "me".