Professional level according to Fargo

[sjm]

I think we will have pool players from other galaxies before that ever becomes reality.
That is something to ponder.

Yes, an intergalactic pro pool tour is not outside the boundaries of the imagination. Sounds like fun.

 

[bb9ball]

Under those standards, the level would rise so high it's almost inconceivable. Yes, many crossovers would succeed (as we've seen, English 8-ball crossovers like Appleton and Shaw have many major pool titles. I suspect, however that the bigger issue is that if this kind of money were available in pool, many of those with god-given gifts in sports and games would try their hand at pool as well as the other sports. Some of them would surely be stone-cold killers. Still, I would expect that the guys who win the most majors in pool these days would still be very elite.

PS Have any snooker crossovers won any big pool events? Must admit I can't think of one. Certainly, snooker players Mark Gray and Marlon Manalo had some high finishes, but I'm asking about wins. I recall that Judd Trump was 6/1 odds to win the 2021 US Open 9-ball. I recall telling a friend that he was probably a 4/1 shot to qualify for the last sixteen. He finished 33/48. There's a lot more to pool than showing up and shooting as straight as straight can be.

And, for an example of the money bringing more top players, I think I've heard that Appleton, Boyes, and others came to pool because of the prizes from the IPT.

 

[MattPoland]

Under those standards, the level would rise so high it's almost inconceivable. Yes, many crossovers would succeed (as we've seen, English 8-ball crossovers like Appleton and Shaw have many major pool titles. I suspect, however that the bigger issue is that if this kind of money were available in pool, many of those with god-given gifts in sports and games would try their hand at pool as well as the other sports. Some of them would surely be stone-cold killers. Still, I would expect that the guys who win the most majors in pool these days would still be very elite.

PS Have any snooker crossovers won any big pool events? Must admit I can't think of one. Certainly, snooker players Mark Gray and Marlon Manalo had some high finishes, but I'm asking about wins. I recall that Judd Trump was 6/1 odds to win the 2021 US Open 9-ball. I recall telling a friend that he was probably a 4/1 shot to qualify for the last sixteen. He finished 33/48. There's a lot more to pool than showing up and shooting as straight as straight can be.

Reminds me that running out an open layout is supposed to be taken for granted. Often even is playing a basic combo, one rail kicking a hanger, getting the best of a breakout, playing short side shape, or coming across the line of the shot with speed control that attains ball-in-hand-shape. Beyond the break, I think the final frontier is still higher and higher levels of mastery over push outs, jumps, lock-up safeties, and devastating escapes. And that’s where crossovers get tested and perhaps found lacking. Meanwhile it doesn’t escape my attention that prime Appleton exceedingly amazed at exactly those skills. If the money’s right, a male version of Allison Fisher isn’t all that far fetched. For me, pool talent is pool talent. They need these skills. I don’t care if it comes from bar box leaguers, pool hall junkies, child prodigies, road warriors, snooker, Russian pyramid, carom, skittle pool, or bumper pool. If you can hang your hat above the rest, you’re a pool player to me.

 

[Cameron Smith]

PS Have any snooker crossovers won any big pool events? Must admit I can't think of one. Certainly, snooker players Mark Gray and Marlon Manalo had some high finishes, but I'm asking about wins. I recall that Judd Trump was 6/1 odds to win the 2021 US Open 9-ball. I recall telling a friend that he was probably a 4/1 shot to qualify for the last sixteen. He finished 33/48. There's a lot more to pool than showing up and shooting as straight as straight can be.

Tony Drago won the world pool masters in 2003. Though arguably it was more of a exhibition event at that time. Daryl Peach is the only snooker crossover to win an indisputable major with the 2007. But he had been playing pool for at least a decade at that point.

 

[skogstokig]

Tony Drago won the world pool masters in 2003. Though arguably it was more of a exhibition event at that time. Daryl Peach is the only snooker crossover to win an indisputable major with the 2007. But he had been playing pool for at least a decade at that point.

shaun murphy said in a podcast recently that mark gray was his boogieman, he could never beat him in snooker.

no majors, but 6 eurotour wins within 5 years is crazy strong. and he's still sporting a 807 fargorate even though he's just playing local and senior events nowadays.

i think gary wilson could do well in pool if he transitioned, and as others write the heyball and blackball players would probably be a factor as well. up the prize money and we will definitely see transitions.

 

[mikepage]

I think their different lists have different criteria. Smaller slices have lighter criteria. The world list seems the strictest. And it seems to change a bit over time too

For our LIVE lists, the ones that change every day, there are two criteria

World Top 100 men & women; USA top 100 men & women ---300 games total and 150 last two years

Regional lists, like South central USA --300 games total and some games (anything over 0) last two years

You can find these in the APP; As of today, Gary Abood is number 7 in South central

 

[mikepage]

To change the subject slightly, let's pretend pool became a major sport, with international monthly events of 128 players. Each event had a top prize of 1MM, and a 32nd place prize of 50K, and the top players were endorsed by the shoe companies to boot Do we think there would be a lot more Shane/Filler/Ghorst's that arrive on the scene? So that we had 32 players all 830 and higher? Or would the number of players that high remain similar, and the lower fargos would become more populous?

Interesting you seem to assume Shane, Filler, and Gorst would be pro level players.

 

[sjm]

Tony Drago won the world pool masters in 2003. Though arguably it was more of a exhibition event at that time. Daryl Peach is the only snooker crossover to win an indisputable major with the 2007. But he had been playing pool for at least a decade at that point.

These qualify in my book. I just couldn't come up with them. Thanks.

 

[sjm]

And, for an example of the money bringing more top players, I think I've heard that Appleton, Boyes, and others came to pool because of the prizes from the IPT.

Definitely so. The had previously come to play in the BCA Nationals 8-ball in the Masters Division at the Riviera in Las Vegas, which offered big prize money. I recall that Darren came second in that event.

 

[mikepage]

Definitely so. The had previously come to play in the BCA Nationals 8-ball in the Masters Division at the Riviera in Las Vegas, which offered big prize money. I recall that Darren came second in that event.

I think I recall watching Darren play Jason Kirkwood from MI in finals of that event. David Alcaide was also around with a small Spanish contingent if I'm not mixing up years...

 

[sjm]

I think I recall watching Darren play Jason Kirkwood from MI in finals of that event. David Alcaide was also around with a small Spanish contingent if I'm not mixing up years...

I just can't remember who beat Darren in the final, but I think it was in 2005.

 

[benjaminwah]

Not sure if there’s a cut off. Could also be dependent on local operator

My friend lost in the 9 ball singles nationals to a guy I mentioned above. This guy has a 746 Fargo, higher than people who have recently played on the American Mosconi Cup team. Why he is allowed to play APA is beyond me.

 

[cookie man]

I think I recall watching Darren play Jason Kirkwood from MI in finals of that event. David Alcaide was also around with a small Spanish contingent if I'm not mixing up years...

Kirkwood doesn’t have to lose to anyone on the barbox

 

[rharm]

My friend lost in the 9 ball singles nationals to a guy I mentioned above. This guy has a 746 Fargo, higher than people who have recently played on the American Mosconi Cup team. Why he is allowed to play APA is beyond me.

APA does not use Fargo ratings to determine pro/amateur status. APA basically decides that but they do have come criteria they do use: "possessing a tour membership in any men’s or women’s professional billiards organization, winning tour points from any of those organizations, being a nationally known money player in APA's judgment, or otherwise being recognized as a billiards professional, billiards celebrity or entertainer including being a noted exhibition performer, retired professional, etc."

 

[iusedtoberich]

Interesting you seem to assume Shane, Filler, and Gorst would be pro level players.

If you are implying they would not be strong enough to make the cut, I strongly disagree.

We’ve had many decades of players who have relied on pool to eat. From depression era players, to 1980’s Filipino players. And we've had many decades of organized international competition. The top level has been established.

 

[maha]

you want the sport to grow???

have very large entry fees
have a very large degree of luck
invent a new game that is a game fun to watch in person and on tv.

 

[alphadog]

you want the sport to grow???

have very large entry fees
have a very large degree of luck
invent a new game that is a game fun to watch in person and on tv.

Maybe 3 player ring game of 3 ball with a 30 second game clock. 1 tie all tie. Dollars triple for a under 10 seconds game,double for a under 20 seconds game.
Have 5 players but only 3 chosen at random get to try each round.
Make it so progressively better looking woman and man in diminishing attire rack/gather the balls each round.
Award matching money to a homeless shelter for other pool players/actors.

 

[mikepage]

If you are implying they would not be strong enough to make the cut, I strongly disagree.

We’ve had many decades of players who have relied on pool to eat. From depression era players, to 1980’s Filipino players. And we've had many decades of organized international competition. The top level has been established.

Pool is a substantially undeveloped sport.

Filler's father was a pool player, and Joshua spent lots of time at the pool table at age 6 and competed nationally at age 10
SVB came from a few generations of serious players and spent a lot of time at the pool table when he couldn't reach it without a stool
Siming Chen's parents owned a pool hall
Kelly Fisher's parents owned a pub
Most of our young stars right now have similar stories (parents owned an establishment, slept under pool table as a toddler at tournaments).

When/if pool starts to become more developed, that fate of unusual early access/exposure will become more rare.

If you look at hockey in Canada, basketball and football in the US, baseball in the Dominican Republic, and soccer almost anywhere in the world, there is a lot more meritocratic filtering of the population. The simple model is everybody starts by trying and having posters of players on their wall. By age 12, the fastest/strongest/best from the whole population are competing with one another and pushing one another to the next level. The best of these get the recognition, stature, encouragement, and opportunity. By age 18, the best are really really good, and they're moderately close to the best that COULD be generated from that population.

The best swimmers, chess players, pool players, synchronized swimmers, and violinists don't fit this model. The filtering of the population is far less meritocratic.

Siming Chen, once again, had parents who owned a pool hall. Her small province in northeastern China has 30 million people. If we could imagine millions of girl in that province all being adopted out at a young age to parents who owned a pool hall, would Siming end up being the best player amongst them? Maybe. But probably not.

 

[maha]

its underdeveloped mike because the game and tournaments are set up so the best player or players win all the top money almost every time.
baseball hockey etc. any team may win as luck does play a part in the game, otherwise the best teams wins all the time.

the other games you mentioned that havent gone well is because the very top take all the top spots.

its easy to talk about the champs in pool as that is what evryone seems to aspire to be. but they cant and many soon give up trying as if you dont you are batting your head against the wall.

the leagues have grown because the players are so bad everyone gets enough chances to shoot that they might win or at least seem to have a good chance. and of course its a social event not like a real pool tournament.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Pool is a substantially undeveloped sport.

Filler's father was a pool player, and Joshua spent lots of time at the pool table at age 6 and competed nationally at age 10
SVB came from a few generations of serious players and spent a lot of time at the pool table when he couldn't reach it without a stool
Siming Chen's parents owned a pool hall
Kelly Fisher's parents owned a pub
Most of our young stars right now have similar stories (parents owned an establishment, slept under pool table as a toddler at tournaments).

When/if pool starts to become more developed, that fate of unusual early access/exposure will become more rare.

If you look at hockey in Canada, basketball and football in the US, baseball in the Dominican Republic, and soccer almost anywhere in the world, there is a lot more meritocratic filtering of the population. The simple model is everybody starts by trying and having posters of players on their wall. By age 12, the fastest/strongest/best from the whole population are competing with one another and pushing one another to the next level. The best of these get the recognition, stature, encouragement, and opportunity. By age 18, the best are really really good, and they're moderately close to the best that COULD be generated from that population.

The best swimmers, chess players, pool players, synchronized swimmers, and violinists don't fit this model. The filtering of the population is far less meritocratic.

Siming Chen, once again, had parents who owned a pool hall. Her small province in northeastern China has 30 million people. If we could imagine millions of girl in that province all being adopted out at a young age to parents who owned a pool hall, would Siming end up being the best player amongst them? Maybe. But probably not.

That's a good point, that if 1% of a population has enough access to a sport to develop their skills, it seems likely that the most talented individuals will not be in that 1%. On the other hand, the concept of talent has been debated. The fact that Earl was on the road 3 years after picking up a pool cue, and I've owned a table for 3 years and get smoked in weekly tournaments is proof enough for me. How rare is top level talent? I don't think top level talent is quite so rare that many people from the most talented group won't find themselves in front of a pool table. Is there a level of talent higher than Gorst, Filler, FSR, and SVB that's untapped? I don't even know how much better you can get, especially in a sport that doesn't require much in the way of physical gifts. If 0.01% of a population has top level talent, how many people need access to develop their talent before you are guaranteed that one of those one in 10,000 gets access?