Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

I didn't know my proposal would generate such a frenzy.

I still feel Bartram vs CJ in this kind of match would be a seller. Lots of old-school people would watch it and I'm sure some of the people who prefer Texas Express would watch just to see what the deal is.

If this match doesn't pan out, how about Earl playing ANY of the younger guys using the two-shot rules?
 
JB Cases said:
I wouldn't go so far as checkers to chess. And as Stan Shuffett pointed out most people don't understand high level checkers. There is such a thing.

CJ makes some statements that even get his supporters going though!

I'd say that while you do have more options in one pocket when it's your turn you generally only have a very limited amount of moves that are worth considering. Any commentary I have listened to in one hole seems to arrive at those moves pretty quick and rarely do players choose something that was not noticed by the commentators.

I guess it's pretty much the same in two-foul nine ball. There are a lot of moves available but probably only a few which are worth consideration.

I think one pocket and 2 foul nine ball are simply two different games each requiring different skill sets. I am curious though what the spots like 15-5 equate to in 2-foul nine ball?
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Have you ever watched Efren play? He comes up with moves (and damn good ones), that not only the commentators but the audience members never saw as well. Once again there are infinitely more options playing One Pocket than in push-out 9-Ball. It's not even close between the two games in that respect.
 
Wow !!!

lfigueroa said:
lmao.

Lou Figueroa
stop it, yer
killin' me
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jay helfert said:
.... Once again there are infinitely more options playing One Pocket than in push-out 9-Ball. It's not even close between the two games in that respect.
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Lou and Jay (and John B. too)...I've noticed Mr. Wiley likes to use words like 'ridiculous' and 'ludicrous'..However, both those words apply directly to HIM when he tries to expound on one pocket vs. nine ball !..He also doesn't mind throwing in an "occasional" brag does he ? :o

He might think he's talking to a "newbie", when he talks down to me !..All I can say is, he needs to read up a little on me, in Grady or Buddy's books, or maybe browse thru SMAS, by Robin !..Or maybe watch my only accustats match with Joyner, in '98 (on which Buddy commentated) when I was 65 yrs. old, and couldn't make a ball !...Hey, I could get hooked on this 'bragging'..:p

San Jose Dick....(OK, I'll come off the 'SJD', he may be a little too young to remember me anyway)

PS..I didn't win 30K off Slim, but I did nick him pretty good a few times..Of course I gave him a little better game than CJ did !..18 to 6 once, and 20 to 7 and the break, another time ! (both on his home court in Amarillo)..Witnesses on demand ! ;)
 
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BeiberLvr said:
Here's what I propose...

1. 9 on the break gets spotted, no matter which pocket it goes in. Making the 9 on the break is not a skill shot, and there's no reason to reward a player for getting lucky.

2. The 9 gets racked on the spot*

3. The 9 ball must be called. All other balls can be slopped. A couple reasons for this are most pros don't slop balls in anways, and the problem with call shot in 10ball is that it eliminates the two-way shot.

4. If you're hooked (regardless of the reason), you are allowed to push out. Each player gets one push per rack. The incoming player has the option.

5. All fouls result in ball in hand in the kitchen. If the lowest numbered ball is in the kitchen, it gets spotted. If there is already a ball on the spot, then it goes in front of the spotted ball.

6. Any ball made during a foul get spotted. Same rule applies if a ball is already on the spot (see rule #4).


*I'm not sure on rule #2. I remember hearing somewhere that making the wing ball isn't as automatic (especially with the magic rack) when the 9 is on the spot.


Thoughts?
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My thoughts are, there are no perfect rules for rotation pool.

That said, the rules we currently have are potentially workable ONLY with a stop clock, and a challenging one at that - 15 secs, perhaps. Assessing a table quickly is a skill, and running it without endless hesitation is exciting for the fans.

The other possibility is to eliminate safeties, with players forced to go for every shot. How workable that is, is open to debate.
 
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley
One pocket is reasonably difficult, although it does take about 3 weeks to learn how the game strategically works and the "touch" shots required.
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lfigueroa said:
lmao.

Lou Figueroa
stop it, yer
killin' me
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Let's see.....Justin took a week to learn the game, went down and snapped off Tunica.....then beat Jeremy.

Been over three weeks now. Yeah, I'd say he's ready for anybody now.
 
One pocket is a very strategic and complex game, but........

jay helfert said:
True, when playing "push-out" 9-Ball you will always have options ON ONE BALL at a time. In One Pocket ON EVERY SHOT you have an infinite number of options on all fifteen balls. There is far more variety and creativity in One Pocket because of this. Comparing push-out 9-Ball to One Pocket is like comparing Checkers to Chess! The Game is the teacher! :thumbup2:
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I'm well aware that I will have to prove this to you and many others (ps: you're first statement is not true fyi).....I will enjoy seeing the look on your faces when you "real eyes" how complex 'Two Show Shoot Out' really is......am I saying I'm an expert at the game? Yes, I AM saying that loud and clear......I've won much more playing Two Shot Shoot Out that Efren's won playing One Pocket.

There's many things about the game that only a few players know.....those players are including ones like Reid Pierce, "Country Calvin", David Matlock, LA Keith, Omaha John, Weldon Rogers, Buddy Hall, James Christopher, Sammy Jones, Johnny Ross, etc.

I know the game inside and out because of the players listed above - as with all evolving knowledge, it's learned by "standing on each other's {information} shoulders.

One pocket is a very strategic and complex game, but it is still limited because there's only one pocket you score in and one pocket you have to guard against. In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' there's usually more balls that you can effect and there's 6 pockets you can shoot at AND you have to guard against. This brings about potentially thousands of different variables (maybe even millions according to Einstein;)) .....I'm not sure how to calculate the number, so I'm making an educated guess.

Those that have "eyes that can see" the deepest levels of pool will start to understand the differences with those hints I just offered.......although it takes many years to actually learn the shots and scenarios.

'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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Ball in hand in any game or sport is silly.

Island Drive said:
With roll out pool, the shooter will almost Always go for the breakout and try and run out. This aspect creates discussion about the game, the players and ball movements, which is pool. I'd MUCH rather see someone play shape for a breakout than a lock down safe, all day..........................long....................................................

And playing Rempe ''roll out 9 ball'' was brutal when it came to rolling out. He could/would/did cut the hair off the ball in his prime years of playing roll out pool. He was extremely consistent at making those 80 degree cuts along the end rails up and back.
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That's right, the game takes on a whole other life form when you know you MUST run out to win and you will very, very, seldom get "ball in hand".

Ball in hand in any game or sport is silly......it dilutes the entire integrity of the game when you can place it anywhere without your opponent being involved defensively.....the only way this could possible be fair is if both players had ball in hand to start each game, but watching champion players run the balls is boring and uneventful for the most part.

PS: Imagine One Pocket where players get "ball in hand" on a foul .... it would make an otherwise great game seem silly too.......same with straight pool, banks and eight ball as well, although Eight Ball is probably the only one that isn't drastically effected.
 
For players like Shannon Dalton and Scott Frost the game is natural,

klockdoc said:
Let's see.....Justin took a week to learn the game, went down and snapped off Tunica.....then beat Jeremy.

Been over three weeks now. Yeah, I'd say he's ready for anybody now.
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Yes, you're right, I didn't say it would take 3 weeks for someone that had never played before.....it took me over a year to get to that level, the 3 weeks is to "re learn" the game.

For players like Shannon Dalton and Scott Frost the game is natural, but for players like myself {that grew up playing rotation and eight ball} there's a "learning curve" that requires some coaching.
 
I understand the guarding of 6 pocket's may be different than one pocket but doesn't this actually make the game easier to win at?

Anthony
 
CJ Wiley said:
I'm well aware that I will have to prove this to you and many others (ps: you're first statement is not true fyi).....I will enjoy seeing the look on your faces when you "real eyes" how complex 'Two Shot Shoot Out' really is......am I saying I'm an expert at the game? Yes, I AM saying that loud and clear !'....There's many things about the game that only a few players know.....those players are including ones like Reid, Pierce, "Country Calvin", David Matlock, LA Keith, Omaha John, Weldon Rogers, Buddy Hall, James Christopher, Sammy Jones, Johnny Ross, etc.

I know the game inside and out because of the players listed above - as with all evolving knowledge, it's learned by "standing on each other's {information} shoulders.

One pocket is a very strategic and complex game,<--you should have stopped right there ! but it is still limited because there's only one pocket you score in and one pocket you have to guard against. In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' there's usually more balls that you can effect and there's 6 pockets you can shoot at AND you have to guard against. This brings about potentially thousands of different variables (maybe even millions according to Einstein;)) .....I'm not sure how to calculate the number, so I'm making an educated guess.

'The Game is the Teacher'
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I'm sorry CJ, but you are only digging yourself a deeper hole !..I was closing in on 30 yrs. of age, before I really became a skilled one pocket player, who could compete with just about anyone !..I will also admit, I was still learning, when I retired !..Prior to that time, I played very solid 9 ball, and all I EVER played was 2 shot shoot out !..I agree, 2 shot foul, is a much better game than 'Texas Express', but it is STILL just a 'paint by the numbers' rotation game !..You were a great competitor in your prime, but you were far from a 'well rounded' (ie; ALL games) player !

Before you bury yourself completely, you may want to check with most of the guy's you are basing your argument on !...IE; Reid, Calvin, Weldon, Buddy, James Christopher, and many others !..You will find they will concur, that my observations come from playing almost ALL games very well, for a lot of years !..I doubt any we've mentioned, would take your side in this debate !..So far, very few have sided with you, on this 'mixed level' pool forum !

I am not arguing this point, just for the sake of arguing with you !..I have more years of experience, in the really tough trenches, than you have on this earth !..And I am telling you, you are dead wrong, in your evaluation of which game is the more difficult to learn, and excel at !..It is not even close !.."My game has been MY teacher" !:sorry:

SJD

PS..Why do I get the feeling you would argue with a cattleman, about the price of beef ?.. :confused: :cool:
 
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lfigueroa said:
Not at Efren's level, certainly not at his. Not that I would expect you to understand any of that...

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4942

Lou Figueroa
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The offer of 9/8 for 100 a game stands. Before I thought I was a big underdog but I think I might actually beat you giving you this weight after seeing you play.

You are still loser against me in one pocket and always will be unless you step up.
 
SJDinPHX said:
I'm sorry CJ, but you are only digging yourself a deeper hole !..I was closing in on 30 yrs. of age, before I really became a skilled one pocket player, who could compete with just about anyone !..I will also admit, I was still learning, when I retired !..Prior to that time, I played very solid 9 ball, and all I EVER played was 2 shot shoot out !..I agree, 2 shot foul, is a much better game than 'Texas Express', but it is STILL just a 'paint by the numbers' rotation game !..You were a great competitor in your prime, but you were far from a 'well rounded' (ie; ALL games) player !

Before you bury yourself completely, you may want to check with most of the guy's you are basing your argument on !...IE; Reid, Calvin, Weldon, Buddy, James Christopher, and many others !..You will find they will concur, that my observations come from playing BOTH games very well, for a lot of years !..I doubt any we've mentioned, would take your side in this debate !..So far you have very few on this 'mixed level' pool forum !

I am not arguing this point, just for the sake of arguing with you !..I have more years of experience, in the really tough trenches, than you have on this earth !..And I am telling you, you are dead wrong, in your evaluation of which game is the more difficult to excel at !..It is not even close !.."My game has been MY teacher" !:sorry:

SJD

PS..Why do I get the feeling you would argue with a cattleman, about the price of beef ?.. :confused: :cool:
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lol, SJD, what he has said is so unbelievably lacking in insight it's hard to take much of anything he says seriously. Somewhat obviously "The Game" has not taught him enough.

Lou Figueroa
 
For me, learning - becoming "competent" in one hole vs 2 shot push-out was a night and day comparison.

One hole is far more demanding intellectually than push-out. Conduct a poll with experienced players of both. Not even close.
 
JB Cases said:
The offer of 9/8 for 100 a game stands. Before I thought I was a big underdog but I think I might actually beat you giving you this weight after seeing you play.

You are still loser against me in one pocket and always will be unless you step up.
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lol, only a real loser would think beating someone in a friendly race to two would count for jack shee-at-toe and still bring it up all these years later as if it counted squat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=peXSNWRbhwI

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
lol, only a real loser would think beating someone in a friendly race to two would count for jack shee-at-toe and still bring it up all these years later as if it counted squat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=peXSNWRbhwI

Lou Figueroa
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Nah I don't think it means much. It just is what it is John 1 - Lou 0. Since you're scared to play in my opinion it will stand that way until you find some heart. Be careful though not to wait too long because according to you your meager skills are slipping daily. Wouldn't want you to psyche yourself out based on your own views about age and skills.

This video you linked to is particularly appporiate because you were there and didn't bother to offer to play me. Not a peep. Like a shivering mouse you didn't make the slightest move to try and play me.

Which kind of fits what we now know of your habit of ducking action.
 
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lfigueroa said:
lol, only a real loser would think beating someone in a friendly race to two would count for jack shee-at-toe and still bring it up all these years later as if it counted squat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=peXSNWRbhwI

Lou Figueroa
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Lou, John Barton and I, have had a fragile truce in place for quite a while now, so I will not intercede in your [sic] exciting debate with him ! (except to say, for Chrissake...JACK IT UP !!!)

I am however amazed that he, being a DEVOUT C.J. 'cheer leader', (I will not use the "dangler" metaphor) has managed to hold his metal, regarding our complete 180 degree difference of opinion, on many subjects !

Thank you John, you are a man of your word !..Plus, I think the fact that you know I'm right, may have some bearing on the subject at hand !..:p........Oh, I see, then you would also have to admit Lou is right !..I get it now ! :thumbup:
 
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