Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

jhanso18 said:
Anyone feel free to sum up the thread for me. I didn't keep up this weekend. I dropped off at like page 7. from what I read in the last two is two things.

CJ will NOT play Bartrum.

And Lou and John are back at each other, and will never play for several reasons...


Good to know. Thanks!
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CJ said no one is barred to come to Ft. Worth and play him 2 foul there. So he WILL play Chris, just there and the rules he prefers.

And you're probably right about Lou and I with the main reason being that Lou would pretty much have to quit the forums IF I were to win and I already got lucky once. Getting beat again by an aiming system using nobody like me would more than likely drive him to tears so the only way to insure that doesn't happen is the same 100% way not to have a baby, don't play.
 
Imparted wisdom

Chuck Norris and Jay Helfert were both kicking ass when CJ was wearing diapers.

Chuck Norris however never needed diapers.

Jay was probably wearing pull-ups when Alfredo DeOro won his last 3C world title. :eek:
 
I'd love to see a Lou vs.Barton game, I'd even pay to watch that one.

But even better would be the next cartoon that Spider Dave makes about their match!

Go Dave, Go!!
 
JB Cases said:
CJ said no one is barred to come to Ft. Worth and play him 2 foul there. So he WILL play Chris, just there and the rules he prefers.

And you're probably right about Lou and I with the main reason being that Lou would pretty much have to quit the forums IF I were to win and I already got lucky once. Getting beat again by an aiming system using nobody like me would more than likely drive him to tears so the only way to insure that doesn't happen is the same 100% way not to have a baby, don't play.
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So in a nutshell, CJ wants what he feels to be the nuts. I'm guessing if CJ would entice more than $100 a game action, The Smooth Criminal would make an appearance...

And Lou and John can both still pee pretty far in a pissing contest!

Thanks John! Still want to see you and Lou play. All the talk makes it interesting!
 
By looking at these answers you appear to have never played

jay helfert said:
1. In one Pocket you must shoot more difficult cut shots, bank shots and COMBINATIONS, in EVERY GAME! Not so in 9-Ball.

2. There is a premium on good cue ball position in One Pocket, more so than in 9-Ball where you often have a large area to play position in. In One Pocket you often are trying to put the cue ball in a very precise location, and a fraction of an inch off can be a bad shot!

3. 9-Ball is full of routine shots, ones that you play game after game. In One Pocket, challenging shots come up regularly, where speed, spin and angle must be perfect to execute it properly.

4. Once again, far more often in One Pocket you must "unload" on a shot, moving the cue ball around the table to an exact spot to play safe while shooting at your hole.

5. Far more difficult shots must often be made during the course of a One Pocket game (see #1).

6. All safeties in One Pocket must be perfectly played or you risk selling out the game.

7. You shoot far more banks in One Pocket, many of them off angle banks requiring extreme english and perfect speed on the cue ball.

8. You may win here, since you shoot many soft shots in One Pocket, that must be played perfectly (like getting the cue ball to drift back into the pack).

9. You will be using all types of english just in your safety game alone (see #8), and you're constantly moving the cue ball to get set up for the next shot. Once again position play in 9-Ball is usually far easier once you get in line. I can't say that for One Pocket.

10. If you get in line at 9-Ball, there won't be much of this. Having more long shots is not necessarily a yard stick of the more difficult game anyway. If you play good you don't need to shoot many of these shots. Of course, they come up in both games.

11. See above (#10).

12. Also see #10 above.

Thank you CJ for offering me the opportunity to poke holes in your argument. I think the questions you asked could well be the same ones used to determine that One Pocket is the more difficult game to play.
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By looking at these answers you appear to have never played Two Shot Shoot Out Rules and your judgement lacks playing experience.....is there anyone that actually saw you play and if so, who was it and what was the amount of the wager?

You are passing yourself off as an expert, but personally I've never heard anyone talk about you ever playing, I thought you were a tournament director, but not a player. No offense, but I've seen you hundreds of times and not once have I seen you playing pool so it's confusing to see you take a position of an expert at Two Shot Shoot Out.

If you want to get on a table with me on streaming video and compare the two game's difficulties I will do this in the near future. Let me warn you that it will be an extreme challenge to overcome what I'm going to offer to the "pool world"......I have a level of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' knowledge and way of explaining it that will make One Pocket pale in comparison. If I were you I'd consult with Joe Tucker before agreeing to this challenge.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Your post made some good points, until you made these two statements..It is obvious you preferred rotation games, to one pocket..But like Jay says, (and I quote) "One pocket, is 10 times tougher to excel at, than 9 or 10 ball, regardless
of the rules" !

I am really surprised at your naivete, in this area !..The ONLY comparison may be audience enjoyment !..It does require a basic knowledge of one pocket, for a spectator to enjoy one pocket, but as more and more 'top players' (SVB, Earl, Orcullo, Alex, etc) are learning the game, most of them really enjoy the intricasies, and challenge of the game !.. All rotation games (regardless of the rules) are basically a "paint by the numbers" endeavor !...You just may be a little 'antiquated' re; the current climate of tournament, or hi-$$$$$ match-ups !..

You will lose a LOT of good paying customer's, (stream or live gate) if your mindset remains fixated, ONLY on shotmaking games !.. Modern players, and spectators, are starting to demand more strategy, than 9/10 ball, will EVER have to offer !..
Running 8 and out, in one pocket, is a very tough challenge, even for a TOP player !.. Whereas, an APA 5, often may
string 3 racks of 9ball together !...Jes' sayin' :rolleyes: ;) :cool:

SJD

PS..9 ball will still appeal to the 'uninformed, casual' pool fan...But it may not be that way forever !
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i dont think one-pocket will ever be main stream for viewing. In other words it will never draw the audience that rotation or even 8-ball will/does draw.

I play one pocket and enjoy it, but watching a one pocket match is extremely boring to most people, myself included. Especially the apa 5 that runs 3 packs regularly.
 
You have a right to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

jhanso18 said:
So in a nutshell, CJ wants what he feels to be the nuts. I'm guessing if CJ would entice more than $100 a game action, The Smooth Criminal would make an appearance...

And Lou and John can both still pee pretty far in a pissing contest!

Thanks John! Still want to see you and Lou play. All the talk makes it interesting!
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Chris said he'd play me in Virginia or Indiana......I'm certainly not playing serious enough right now to suddenly fly accross the country to play. I did play some $400 One Pocket a few weeks ago and "got lucky"....many know who I played and how.

We're working on a significant billiard project right now and I said with 3 days notice I'll play anyone here in Ft. Worth.....it can be Chris, Bustemante, Efren, Johnny, Earl, or anyone else that wants to play. That's a fair offer, so if that's "wanting the nuts" then I must be playing better than I "real eyes". ;)

You have a right to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Playing Two Shot Shoot Out you MUST make tough shots game after game after game.....I'd say the average difficulty of shots in 'Two Shot 9 Ball' is a "7" and in One Pocket the average difficulty is a "3"....that's only one category, but it's a huge difference.
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Mr. Wiley, you seem to enjoy ignoring anyone's opinion, that differs even the slightest from yours !..You have spent untold hours on these forums, espousing your viewpoints, on just about anything pool related ! (and even many NPR subjects, ie; Zen, Karate, ESP, etc.)..So much so, that you are starting to repeat yourself ! :boring2: :boring2: :boring2: (a trait usually reserved for old codger's like me)

So, if you don't mind, I will not waste any more time trying to debate ANYTHING with you !...I shall just furnish 'links' to past posts of mine, and others !

>> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4394236&postcount=174 <<

As much as you enjoy fighting windmills, you may want to consider this method, before you wear your fingers to the bone, while spending 20 hrs. a day, 'TRYING' to defend, some of your indefensible positions ! :rolleyes:

SJD
 
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Bambu said:
I'd love to see a Lou vs.Barton game, I'd even pay to watch that one.

But even better would be the next cartoon that Spider Dave makes about their match!

Go Dave, Go!!
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^^^ This would write itself. Almost every post single Louie makes can be made into a cartoon. I have Viper Command's character pretty well defined by now.

If JB beats Louser.....the cartoon would be....oh my.... very good.
 
CJ - I appreciate what you are saying here.

I've been in a very small minority on AZ when this or similar subjects come up. I've always felt that both one-pocket and 14.1 are a bit over-hyped when it comes to how difficult they actually are. While certainly they are both interesting games that require some quality decision making, neither of them take years of study to understand how to play them -- especially when you are talking about championship level pool players. This has been proven time and time again in both disciplines.

The old time straight poolers taught that it took nearly a lifetime to learn all the subtle nuances of the game. You had to learn how to properly nudge a ball here or there and do over and over again in order to run a lot of balls. Well, this may be true for us amateurs but the top pros have proven that this isn't necessary. It's been reported that Shane just ran a 168 (or close to it). Here's a guy that hasn't even played much 14.1. All the top tier players have similar stories of running LOTS of balls, much to the chagrin of the commentators as they point out how these guys aren’t running the balls properly.

One-pocket is sort of the same thing. You just need to be patient and learn to execute a few different shots that come up a lot. One of the big ones that I see that comes up a lot in this game is the stun through shot, where you have to hit the cue ball pretty hard and get it to follow through just a few ball lengths to nestle up to a blocking ball. Most of top players that have any interest in the game can play it very well after just a short amount of time.

I’ve watched a lot of pool and from what I’ve seen – it is way more about execution than imagination. This is the part I’m usually in the minority on.

I’m completely ignorant when it comes to 2 shot rollout 9-Ball. I would be interested in seeing some scenarios that really make you scratch your head.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
Chris said he'd play me in Virginia or Indiana......I'm certainly not playing serious enough right now to suddenly fly accross the country to play. I did play some $400 One Pocket a few weeks ago and "got lucky"....many know who I played and how.

We're working on a significant billiard project right now and I said with 3 days notice I'll play anyone here in Ft. Worth.....it can be Chris, Bustemante, Efren, Johnny, Earl, or anyone else that wants to play. That's a fair offer, so if that's "wanting the nuts" then I must be playing better than I "real eyes". ;)

You have a right to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
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I'm not making facts. You want what you feel to be the nuts = YOUR game in YOUR house. I think it's a fair offer to play anyone that way, but it will take more than $100 a game, or for that matter $400 a game to entice Bartrum to fly out. (I believe Chris has a similar offer. Go to his hall of choice, and play on his table, only difference is he'll play for whatever you want.) Do you NOT think you have the better of it playing 2shot shoot out, at home? Sorry if it came off as you're scared, but I was posting what I interpreted.

Hope you do play CB. I think Chris has the better of it at any game on a pool table. I say play one set 2 shot shoot out, and a second set the Texas Express rules, and let the chips fall where they may. If he wins one and not the other, I'd say your argument is spot on.

( I'd still believe 1 pocket to be the better than both though! ;) )

best,

Justin
 
JB Cases said:
Lenny was wrong then to even get involved. The entire high roll nonsense was exactly that. But even so I said I'd play a 10 ahead 10k set and none of jumped on it.

You and your entourage thought you had the nuts but you didn't have the heart to take me up on it. Your loss.

So, in the words of the great Fast Eddie Felson, I will offer it to you again, 10 ahead for 10k.

'You don't know what to say do you? Maybe I am hustling you, maybe I am not....' Maybe me and Artie Bodendorfer have been secretly training for year waiting to snap you off. :-)

Anyway, I will be at SBE 2014. If you want to make $10,000 then bring your stake and let's get it on. I hope that 7 months is enough time for you clear your schedule.
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I have been contacted by a couple of folks that have taken an interest in us playing.

Are you willing to name a date and put up "no-show" money with someone we can agree on?

Lou Figueroa
 
JB Cases said:
I didn't hide, you were right there and didn't say a word other than to question why I didn't criticize Whitten cases and Freddie corrected you. After that you shut up.

You are the one always woofing. But you didn't even make like a Chihuahua.

You can have opinions but what you can't have is the perspective of the pro because you have never and will never be in that position.

True.

Anyone can play from the booth. You never miss from there. Get in the grease and see how it goes. Oh wait we have that data, you never won anything significant and probably never even cashed in any major tournament that they allowed you to play in.

Yeah, you're right.... oh wait! There was that one time I cashed at the 2000 DCC finishing 18-24.

oh, and almost forgot -- there was the time I cashed again and finished 16-24 in 2001... or yeah, and 20-25th in 2002.

Shoot, sorry, cashed at 30th in 2009. (Won a state 8ball championship once too.)

How 'bout you?

Because no one would bet on you calling the shots for a top pro. It's really that simple.

It's a stupid ain't gonna happen proposition anywhos.

You come and play and I will refund you the cost of the ticket if I win. I am even easier to find. For an easy 10k you should be willing to take a couple days.
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See my previous post ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
Getting deep

I just pulled up my waders and am in this thread for the long haul.

Can I borrow a full face shield from somebody ?

I believe this thread may result in a multi-card battle royal.

Come on Bigtruck, coals need a little stoking.
 
JB Cases said:
CJ said no one is barred to come to Ft. Worth and play him 2 foul there. So he WILL play Chris, just there and the rules he prefers.

And you're probably right about Lou and I with the main reason being that Lou would pretty much have to quit the forums IF I were to win and I already got lucky once. Getting beat again by an aiming system using nobody like me would more than likely drive him to tears so the only way to insure that doesn't happen is the same 100% way not to have a baby, don't play.
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I believe you are projecting, because my ego is not anywhere near that invested in what happens here. I've lost to all kinds of guys.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
I have been contacted by a couple of folks that have taken an interest in us playing.

Are you willing to name a date and put up "no-show" money with someone we can agree on?

Lou Figueroa
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Yes I am willing. Not in this thread though. I will be at the Super Billiards Expo in 2014. We can play as soon as that show is concluded at Sandcastle Billiards.

I will NOT get in to any back and forth on this. All the insulting and taunting is done. Go there and we won't play just exactly like the last guy who thought it was a good idea to use that tactic after it was time to make a game.

You can email me at jb@jbideas.com and we can work out the exact details and then you can make the announcement on AZ.
 
Bambu said:
I'd love to see a Lou vs.Barton game, I'd even pay to watch that one.

But even better would be the next cartoon that Spider Dave makes about their match!

Go Dave, Go!!
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You're nobody on the internet until you have your own chimp jumping up and down on the sidelines :-) lol, you go, Spider -- you go!

Lou Figueroa
 
CJ Wiley said:
By looking at these answers you appear to have never played Two Shot Shoot Out Rules and your judgement lacks playing experience.....is there anyone that actually saw you play and if so, who was it and what was the amount of the wager?

You are passing yourself off as an expert, but personally I've never heard anyone talk about you ever playing, I thought you were a tournament director, but not a player. No offense, but I've seen you hundreds of times and not once have I seen you playing pool so it's confusing to see you take a position of an expert at Two Shot Shoot Out.

If you want to get on a table with me on streaming video and compare the two game's difficulties I will do this in the near future. Let me warn you that it will be an extreme challenge to overcome what I'm going to offer to the "pool world"......I have a level of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' knowledge and way of explaining it that will make One Pocket pale in comparison. If I were you I'd consult with Joe Tucker before agreeing to this challenge.
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I've played once or twice in my life. Have you ever heard of Danny Diliberto, Ronnie Allen, Richie Florence, Keith McCready, Cole Dickson, Billy Johnson, Jimmy Fusco, Dan Louie, Jersey Red, Richie Ambrose, Larry Lisciotti, Jimmy Marino, Jack Cooney, Jose Parica, Ernesto Dominguez or Jay Swanson. These are a few guys I have played with in tournaments and gambling. There are probably a few hundred more you have never heard of, like Bakersfield Bobby and Peter Gunn, both excellent players.

I wised up young and bought my first poolroom at 27 and became a businessman. I didn't want to have to make balls all my life for a living. I think you can relate to that. Maybe you just think I'm a guy in a diner who just dropped by the pool scene yesterday. Just because I was not playing the same time as you, you would prefer to dismiss me. Maybe you have never heard my pool commentary either, or maybe you forgot we worked together on one stream. I would give you a 'C' as a commentator, average at best.

You can respond to my answers to your questions or you can attack me. The debate already began or hadn't you noticed. ;)

P.S. I've never passed myself off as an expert on anything. I will leave others to decide that. I do know that I have fifty years experience in this game from all ends of it. Maybe that counts for something. On the contrary CJ, you are the one who comes on here and professes to be the expert, being all knowing about all things pool. Now you would have us believe that "roll out" 9-Ball has somehow miraculously become a more difficult game to master than One Pocket. By espousing this philosophy you are exposing yourself as seriously lacking in knowledge about this game. Many years ago when both games were played by the top players, there was no question which game was considered the more difficult of the two. That's why One Pocket was invented, to give the best players an edge, as opposed to a game like 9-Ball where someone can get lucky and beat you. The better player almost always wins at One Pocket, not so with 9-Ball in any variation. Maybe you weren't paying attention when UJ Puckett, Amarillo Slim and Jersey Red were around your neighborhood. I GUARANTEE you they would be laughing at you now if they were here.
 
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