I don't know, but I think the fair thing would be to have the option of making them shoot, but they can't roll out.
Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM
- Thread starter HawaiianEye
- Start date
I don't know, but I think the fair thing would be to have the option of making them shoot, but they can't roll out.
EVERY one of them played "Ball in Hand Anywhere on the Table" on the 2nd foul
That's a great question, because if the object ball was on the end rail it would drastically slow the game down for no reason, and would be boring.
NO ONE played ball in hand behind the line on every foul. I played many players 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and we played ball in hand anywhere in the 2nd foul EVERY TIME. Here's a list of some of the players I've gambled with at Two Shot Shoot Out 9/10 Ball.
Reid Pierce - Mississippi - (a ton of heart, US OPEN champion and top gambler)
Rodney Morris - Hawaii (one of the best gambler/two shot players ever imho)
Shannon Dalton - (one of the greatest all around players in history at 19)
Country Calvin - Arkansas - (top notch shoot out player)
Johnny Archer (we played both ways several times, JA plays Awesome) - Georgia
Tony Ellin - Florida - (I dodged a bullet playing Tony on the bar table giving weight)
Johnny Ross - Florida - (gave him the 8ball many times playing shoot out)
John Hager Sr.- Texas - (super smart gambler and moved like a ghost)
John Brumback - Kentucky (not a good guy to roll out Bank Shots to
)
Eddie Moore - Kentucky - (one of kentucky's best bankers and shoot out players)
VERNON ELLIOT - Tenn/Ga - (taught me a lot about the Two Shot game)
Doug Smith - Indiana - (another great Two Shot player of the past)
Omaha John - Nebraska - (2nd only to Matlock and Keith in the world on bar table)
Keith McCready - California - (one of the best SHOOT OUT players to ever live)
Mark Tadd - Utah - (another top rated gambler/two shot player)
Eddy Kelly - Las Vegas - (legendary two shot player)
Mario Cruiz - Miami - (gave up the 7out and won a large number in Miami playing S.O.)
Tommy Brown - Conn. - (tough gambler and shot really straight off the end rail)
Toby Sweet - Florida - (considered one of the best roll out players in history)
Kim Davenport - California - (one of the very best)
Eugene Browning - Atlanta Ga.- (played two foul very, very well)
Robert Stovall - Georgia - (tough, seasoned shoot out player on the bar table)
Billy Ray Sudan - California - (tough game, but pulled it out when I was 19 in Tenn)
Jerry Brock - Memphis Tn. - (need I say more?)
Gary Lutman - St Louis Mo - (had more gambling heart than most players in the world)
Tom Ferry - St Louis Mo - (Mo State 9 Ball Champion)
Bill Berry - St. Louis Mo - (tough St Louie Gambler and great all around gentleman)
Craig Bickford - Columbia Mo.- (we played a ton of shoot out in Columbia Mo)
Rusty Brandimier - Mo - (champion banker and two shot 9 ball player)
George Michaels - Chicago (great mover and top notch shoot out and eight ball player)
"Frisco Jack" Cooney - (one of the best movers in one pocket and a great shoot out player/gambler in his own right)
Robert Leblanc - (great road player and author of 'Confessions of a Pool Hustler' - we played in a bar in Illinois and a guy pulled a gun on the side)
Cliff Joyner - (one pocket expert, and also an advanced shoot out player)
Wade Crane aka "Billy Johnson" - (we played SHOOT OUT in North Carolina and he could cut the paint off the ball....awesome offensive ability)
This is a list of some of the best players I played in the 80s playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out'......and EVERY one of them played "Ball in Hand Anywhere on the Table" on the 2nd foul. During the 90s I played many more high dollar matches against tournament players, they would not play me "TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT", we played "One Foul".
That's a great question, because if the object ball was on the end rail it would drastically slow the game down for no reason, and would be boring.
NO ONE played ball in hand behind the line on every foul. I played many players 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and we played ball in hand anywhere in the 2nd foul EVERY TIME. Here's a list of some of the players I've gambled with at Two Shot Shoot Out 9/10 Ball.
Reid Pierce - Mississippi - (a ton of heart, US OPEN champion and top gambler)
Rodney Morris - Hawaii (one of the best gambler/two shot players ever imho)
Shannon Dalton - (one of the greatest all around players in history at 19)
Country Calvin - Arkansas - (top notch shoot out player)
Johnny Archer (we played both ways several times, JA plays Awesome) - Georgia
Tony Ellin - Florida - (I dodged a bullet playing Tony on the bar table giving weight)
Johnny Ross - Florida - (gave him the 8ball many times playing shoot out)
John Hager Sr.- Texas - (super smart gambler and moved like a ghost)
John Brumback - Kentucky (not a good guy to roll out Bank Shots to
)Eddie Moore - Kentucky - (one of kentucky's best bankers and shoot out players)
VERNON ELLIOT - Tenn/Ga - (taught me a lot about the Two Shot game)
Doug Smith - Indiana - (another great Two Shot player of the past)
Omaha John - Nebraska - (2nd only to Matlock and Keith in the world on bar table)
Keith McCready - California - (one of the best SHOOT OUT players to ever live)
Mark Tadd - Utah - (another top rated gambler/two shot player)
Eddy Kelly - Las Vegas - (legendary two shot player)
Mario Cruiz - Miami - (gave up the 7out and won a large number in Miami playing S.O.)
Tommy Brown - Conn. - (tough gambler and shot really straight off the end rail)
Toby Sweet - Florida - (considered one of the best roll out players in history)
Kim Davenport - California - (one of the very best)
Eugene Browning - Atlanta Ga.- (played two foul very, very well)
Robert Stovall - Georgia - (tough, seasoned shoot out player on the bar table)
Billy Ray Sudan - California - (tough game, but pulled it out when I was 19 in Tenn)
Jerry Brock - Memphis Tn. - (need I say more?)
Gary Lutman - St Louis Mo - (had more gambling heart than most players in the world)
Tom Ferry - St Louis Mo - (Mo State 9 Ball Champion)
Bill Berry - St. Louis Mo - (tough St Louie Gambler and great all around gentleman)
Craig Bickford - Columbia Mo.- (we played a ton of shoot out in Columbia Mo)
Rusty Brandimier - Mo - (champion banker and two shot 9 ball player)
George Michaels - Chicago (great mover and top notch shoot out and eight ball player)
"Frisco Jack" Cooney - (one of the best movers in one pocket and a great shoot out player/gambler in his own right)
Robert Leblanc - (great road player and author of 'Confessions of a Pool Hustler' - we played in a bar in Illinois and a guy pulled a gun on the side)
Cliff Joyner - (one pocket expert, and also an advanced shoot out player)
Wade Crane aka "Billy Johnson" - (we played SHOOT OUT in North Carolina and he could cut the paint off the ball....awesome offensive ability)
This is a list of some of the best players I played in the 80s playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out'......and EVERY one of them played "Ball in Hand Anywhere on the Table" on the 2nd foul. During the 90s I played many more high dollar matches against tournament players, they would not play me "TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT", we played "One Foul".
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That's a great question, because if the object ball was on the end rail it would drastically slow the game down for no reason, and would be boring.
NO ONE played ball in hand behind the line on every foul. I played many players 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and we played ball in hand anywhere in the 2nd foul EVERY TIME. Here's a list of some of the players I've gambled with at Two Shot Shoot Out 9/10 Ball.
Reid Pierce - Mississippi - (a ton of heart, US OPEN champion and top gambler)
Rodney Morris - Hawaii (one of the best gambler/two shot players ever imho)
Shannon Dalton - (one of the greatest all around players in history at 19)
Country Calvin - Arkansas - (top notch shoot out player)
Johnny Archer (we played both ways several times, JA plays Awesome) - Georgia
Tony Ellin - Florida - (I dodged a bullet playing Tony on the bar table giving weight)
Johnny Ross - Florida - (gave him the 8ball many times playing shoot out)
John Hager Sr.- Texas - (super smart gambler and moved like a ghost)
John Brumback - Kentucky (not a good guy to roll out Bank Shots to
Eddie Moore - Kentucky - (one of kentucky's best bankers and shoot out players)
VERNON ELLIOT - Tenn/Ga - (taught me a lot about the Two Shot game)
Doug Smith - Indiana - (another great Two Shot player of the past)
Omaha John - Nebraska - (2nd only to Matlock and Keith in the world on bar table)
Keith McCready - California - (one of the best SHOOT OUT players to ever live)
Mark Tadd - Utah - (another top rated gambler/two shot player)
Eddy Kelly - Las Vegas - (legendary two shot player)
Mario Cruiz - Miami - (gave up the 7out and won a large number in Miami playing S.O.)
Tommy Brown - Conn. - (tough gambler and shot really straight off the end rail)
Toby Sweet - Florida - (considered one of the best roll out players in history)
Kim Davenport - California - (one of the very best)
Eugene Browning - Atlanta Ga.- (played two foul very, very well)
Robert Stovall - Georgia - (tough, seasoned shoot out player on the bar table)
Billy Ray Sudan - California - (tough game, but pulled it out when I was 19 in Tenn)
Jerry Brock - Memphis Tn. - (need I say more?)
Gary Lutman - St Louis Mo - (had more gambling heart than most players in the world)
Tom Ferry - St Louis Mo - (Mo State 9 Ball Champion)
Bill Berry - St. Louis Mo - (tough St Louie Gambler and great all around gentleman)
Craig Bickford - Columbia Mo.- (we played a ton of shoot out in Columbia Mo)
Rusty Brandimier - Mo - (champion banker and two shot 9 ball player)
George Michaels - Chicago (great mover and top notch shoot out and eight ball player)
This is a list of some of the best players I played in the 80s playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out'......and EVERY one of them played "Ball in Hand Anywhere on the Table" on the 2nd foul. During the 90s I played many more high dollar matches against tournament players, they would not play me "TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT", we played "One Foul".
Listen here Mr.Coyote. Don't give me your bullshit list of the best players in the last 50 YEARS to back up your claim. I'm talking about real pool players,like back in my day, when balls were made out of wood and we played with tips made from brontosaurus scrotum.
THE BALL GOES BEHIND THE HEAD STRING! BEHIND THE HEAD STRING!!!!!!
Any more sass out of you whipper snapper and your catching a geriatric ass kick'n.
I apologize for that "blast of reality", we still love the ones that are forgetful
I apologize for that "blast of reality", we still love the ones that are a bit "out of touch" with the real gambling days in the USA. :dance: Next thing they'll be wanting to DIG players up that can beat me and teach me the "correct" rules. - I can see it now 'NIGHT OF LIVING DEAD SHOOT OUT' - LMAO!!!
I apologize for that "blast of reality", we still love the ones that are a bit "out of touch" with the real gambling days in the USA. :dance: Next thing they'll be wanting to DIG players up that can beat me and teach me the "correct" rules. - I can see it now 'NIGHT OF LIVING DEAD SHOOT OUT' - LMAO!!!
behind the headstring
The only time you had ball in hand behind the headstring playing 2 shot foul was if the person you was playing scratched the cueball in a pocket then you got cueball in hand behind the headstring. then you have the option to pass the shot back to him or take the shot yourself.
If you pass the shot back to the person you are playing and he makes another foul meaning 2 fouls in a row then you get ball in hand anywhere on the table. :wink:
The only time you had ball in hand behind the headstring playing 2 shot foul was if the person you was playing scratched the cueball in a pocket then you got cueball in hand behind the headstring. then you have the option to pass the shot back to him or take the shot yourself.
If you pass the shot back to the person you are playing and he makes another foul meaning 2 fouls in a row then you get ball in hand anywhere on the table. :wink:
Road Players know the SHOOT OUT RULES for SURE, because they were really there!!!
You, Sir, Are EXACTLY RIGHT!
The way you described it is how ALL real 9 Ball and 10 Ball Gamblers/Money Players played it in the 70's, and 80's.
Whomever thinks different can contact that rather long list of players in my above post. They know the SHOOT OUT RULES for SURE, because they were really gambling for a lot of cash, and actually played on the road.
You, Sir, Are EXACTLY RIGHT!
The way you described it is how ALL real 9 Ball and 10 Ball Gamblers/Money Players played it in the 70's, and 80's.
Whomever thinks different can contact that rather long list of players in my above post. They know the SHOOT OUT RULES for SURE, because they were really gambling for a lot of cash, and actually played on the road.
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You could also push out and be on one foul yourself.
If they scratched for their second foul, and you were playing BIH in the kitchen, you have the option to roll out, too.
Best,
Mike
Bad rolls affected all of us when we played. You didn't want to see your money disappear because you rolled an inch too far. Pushing out instead of kicking at the ball and splattering the table added some strategery and toned down the wrath of the pool gods.
If your negative attitude caused the table to beat you night after night, you could roll out and take matters into your own hands. You could grind the fast and loose player or challenge the safety assassin. Either way, you were in control.
Best,
Mike
Boy, you sure make a lot of statements that you can't begin to back up. What a crock stating that the thousands that played it differently and didn't have rich backers weren't real players or gamblers. You sure are full of yourself. Here's a news flash for you- if you are playing with a backer, you aren't a gambler in any sense of the word. You are just somebody else's puppet. And almost all the high dollar games were on someone else's dime. The real gamblers were the guys that weren't world beaters. That were playing so they could eat the next day and every match was a toss-up, not a dead lock because they weren't champions.
So nice of you to once again state that anyone that doesn't do things your way is of no consequence.
Just seems the same thing to me. Just takes longer to get ball in hand. If player A either hooked himself or I played a good safe. If he doesn't think he can hit the the he pushes out and has one foul. Player B has the option of shooting the shot, giving it back to player A or pushing out. How is that more offensive? I might be wrong but I would imagine most times players B is going to push out since both players will be on one foul. However by playing yet another push out player B will most likely just push out to another safety and force player A to try and make a good hit. Maybe some will play differently but I imagine most players will play percentages and decide to re push for another safety to achieve BIH. All the push out seems to do is take longer to get right back where you started from. Kicking at the object ball.
I don't really know which is better. It seems like there needs to be some middle ground. It sounds like with the old push out rules you eliminate some of the lucky rolls - which I think is good but at the same time you really eliminate the need to be a good or even great kicker. A player like Efren with his superb kicking skills would have no real reason to showcase them.
Had they been playing by the push out rules he would have never made the famous Z kick shot that he made against Earl that we are all so familiar with.
Properly executed kick shots (not the lucky ones) can be some of the most exciting shots in pool. Eliminating them would not be a good idea. So how do keep the kick shots but incorporate some of the more tactical situations that arise using the push out rules? Hmmm....I'm not sure.
It's an interesting discussion though.
Had they been playing by the push out rules he would have never made the famous Z kick shot that he made against Earl that we are all so familiar with.
Properly executed kick shots (not the lucky ones) can be some of the most exciting shots in pool. Eliminating them would not be a good idea. So how do keep the kick shots but incorporate some of the more tactical situations that arise using the push out rules? Hmmm....I'm not sure.
It's an interesting discussion though.
That's a great question, because if the object ball was on the end rail it would drastically slow the game down for no reason, and would be boring.
NO ONE played ball in hand behind the line on every foul. I played many players 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and we played ball in hand anywhere in the 2nd foul EVERY TIME. Here's a list of some of the players I've gambled with at Two Shot Shoot Out 9/10 Ball.
Reid Pierce - Mississippi - (a ton of heart, US OPEN champion and top gambler)
Rodney Morris - Hawaii (one of the best gambler/two shot players ever imho)
Shannon Dalton - (one of the greatest all around players in history at 19)
Country Calvin - Arkansas - (top notch shoot out player)
Johnny Archer (we played both ways several times, JA plays Awesome) - Georgia
Tony Ellin - Florida - (I dodged a bullet playing Tony on the bar table giving weight)
Johnny Ross - Florida - (gave him the 8ball many times playing shoot out)
John Hager Sr.- Texas - (super smart gambler and moved like a ghost)
John Brumback - Kentucky (not a good guy to roll out Bank Shots to
Eddie Moore - Kentucky - (one of kentucky's best bankers and shoot out players)
VERNON ELLIOT - Tenn/Ga - (taught me a lot about the Two Shot game)
Doug Smith - Indiana - (another great Two Shot player of the past)
Omaha John - Nebraska - (2nd only to Matlock and Keith in the world on bar table)
Keith McCready - California - (one of the best SHOOT OUT players to ever live)
Mark Tadd - Utah - (another top rated gambler/two shot player)
Eddy Kelly - Las Vegas - (legendary two shot player)
Mario Cruiz - Miami - (gave up the 7out and won a large number in Miami playing S.O.)
Tommy Brown - Conn. - (tough gambler and shot really straight off the end rail)
Toby Sweet - Florida - (considered one of the best roll out players in history)
Kim Davenport - California - (one of the very best)
Eugene Browning - Atlanta Ga.- (played two foul very, very well)
Robert Stovall - Georgia - (tough, seasoned shoot out player on the bar table)
Billy Ray Sudan - California - (tough game, but pulled it out when I was 19 in Tenn)
Jerry Brock - Memphis Tn. - (need I say more?)
Gary Lutman - St Louis Mo - (had more gambling heart than most players in the world)
Tom Ferry - St Louis Mo - (Mo State 9 Ball Champion)
Bill Berry - St. Louis Mo - (tough St Louie Gambler and great all around gentleman)
Craig Bickford - Columbia Mo.- (we played a ton of shoot out in Columbia Mo)
Rusty Brandimier - Mo - (champion banker and two shot 9 ball player)
George Michaels - Chicago (great mover and top notch shoot out and eight ball player)
"Frisco Jack" Cooney - (one of the best movers in one pocket and a great shoot out player/gambler in his own right)
Robert Leblanc - (great road player and author of 'Confessions of a Pool Hustler' - we played in a bar in Illinois and a guy pulled a gun on the side)
Cliff Joyner - (one pocket expert, and also an advanced shoot out player)
Wade Crane aka "Billy Johnson" - (we played SHOOT OUT in North Carolina and he could cut the paint off the ball....awesome offensive ability)
This is a list of some of the best players I played in the 80s playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out'......and EVERY one of them played "Ball in Hand Anywhere on the Table" on the 2nd foul. During the 90s I played many more high dollar matches against tournament players, they would not play me "TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT", we played "One Foul".
You knew Bobbie Stovall? I ain't seen him in years. We used to play all the time. I introduced him to his wife. (Hope he doesn't hold that against me)
You have a right to your opinions, but you can't invent your own facts.
You have a right to your opinions, but you can't invent your own facts.
Ididn't had a backer, we had partners on the road, but always bet our own money. That's the facts of the matter, so you're not well informed, call any of the players on the list and they'll verify my information.
Boy, you sure make a lot of statements that you can't begin to back up. What a crock stating that the thousands that played it differently and didn't have rich backers weren't real players or gamblers. You sure are full of yourself. Here's a news flash for you- if you are playing with a backer, you aren't a gambler in any sense of the word. You are just somebody else's puppet. And almost all the high dollar games were on someone else's dime. The real gamblers were the guys that weren't world beaters. That were playing so they could eat the next day and every match was a toss-up, not a dead lock because they weren't champions.
So nice of you to once again state that anyone that doesn't do things your way is of no consequence.
You have a right to your opinions, but you can't invent your own facts.
Ididn't had a backer, we had partners on the road, but always bet our own money. That's the facts of the matter, so you're not well informed, call any of the players on the list and they'll verify my information.
gambled with Bobby many times in Atlanta and Gainesville Georgia.
Yes, I gambled with Bobby many times in Atlanta and Gainesville Georgia. I gave him the 8 Ball on the bar table and it was a pretty tough game from what I remember.
I hope he's still around somewhere, lost track of him years ago.
Best Regards, and Play Well, ChopStick.
You knew Bobbie Stovall? I ain't seen him in years. We used to play all the time. I introduced him to his wife. (Hope he doesn't hold that against me)
Yes, I gambled with Bobby many times in Atlanta and Gainesville Georgia. I gave him the 8 Ball on the bar table and it was a pretty tough game from what I remember.
I hope he's still around somewhere, lost track of him years ago.
Best Regards, and Play Well, ChopStick.
the need for kicking to prevent "ball in hand" isn't part of their game either.
Kicking is a silly part of the game, and it was never intended to be part of 9 Ball.
Efren and the other filipinos don't play One Foul playing rotation so they still shoot spot shots and the need for kicking to prevent "ball in hand" isn't part of their game either.
Kicking does involve skill, but there's still a lot of luck in it. The champions kick to hit one side of the ball with speed to separate or put one ball on an end rail....this is the general "rule of thumb".
By the way, the famous kick Efren made would never have come up if I had won against Earl the previous match.....and it could have gone either way.
Kicking is a silly part of the game, and it was never intended to be part of 9 Ball.
Efren and the other filipinos don't play One Foul playing rotation so they still shoot spot shots and the need for kicking to prevent "ball in hand" isn't part of their game either.
Kicking does involve skill, but there's still a lot of luck in it. The champions kick to hit one side of the ball with speed to separate or put one ball on an end rail....this is the general "rule of thumb".
By the way, the famous kick Efren made would never have come up if I had won against Earl the previous match.....and it could have gone either way.
.players like BROCK, CRANE, and HALL.
I can tell you know more about the game than any of these other posters. You must have played a lot of it at one time like we did. You can probably remember when the "real gamblers" would not play "One Foul" for their money, just in tournaments......players like BROCK, CRANE, and HALL.
I can tell you know more about the game than any of these other posters. You must have played a lot of it at one time like we did. You can probably remember when the "real gamblers" would not play "One Foul" for their money, just in tournaments......players like BROCK, CRANE, and HALL.
you can't play offense and defense at the same time if your opponent can ..........
10 Ball rules are even worse because they effectively eliminate the "two way shots," which are arguably the most exciting and interesting type of shot in pocket billiards. The game of 'One Pocket' is full of two way shot opportunities, however, the two way shots in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' are more difficult to execute on average.
The reason the two way shots (offensive with a defensive component at the same time) are more difficult in TWO SHOT is they are usually played off the end rail and the distance is longer, thus making the shots more difficult.
Long shots off the end rail where you're playing to one side of the pocket OR to miss in a way that provides the best chance for safety are the "lost art form" of pocket billiards. Playing "10 Ball Rules" makes the game even more deluded although it is best to call shots and give the incoming player an option to make them shoot again.....although this prevents the use of two way shots (you can't play offense and defense at the same time if your opponent can make you shoot again).
10 Ball rules are even worse because they effectively eliminate the "two way shots," which are arguably the most exciting and interesting type of shot in pocket billiards. The game of 'One Pocket' is full of two way shot opportunities, however, the two way shots in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' are more difficult to execute on average.
The reason the two way shots (offensive with a defensive component at the same time) are more difficult in TWO SHOT is they are usually played off the end rail and the distance is longer, thus making the shots more difficult.
Long shots off the end rail where you're playing to one side of the pocket OR to miss in a way that provides the best chance for safety are the "lost art form" of pocket billiards. Playing "10 Ball Rules" makes the game even more deluded although it is best to call shots and give the incoming player an option to make them shoot again.....although this prevents the use of two way shots (you can't play offense and defense at the same time if your opponent can make you shoot again).
Not well informed? Just where did I say that YOU always had a backer? Try reading 101 classes sometime. Noticed you dodged the rest of that post, like always. Never respond to what is actually written, just make up some other stuff and respond to that. How typical of you.