PSA: A point with a Re-Cut inside is not 2 points

I never got the whole deal with recut points...laying that aside for a moment, by the logic that the apex of each recut counts as a point, wouldn't a star shaped inlay then qualify as five additional points? Sort of loses the whole point of points, if you get my drift. Many folks wouldn't know the difference between recut points or veneers if they held the cue in their hands. It could look like a full splice cue with one or more veneers, but the structure of the cue would be totally different (unless the outer most part are actually spliced prongs). I remember getting into a debate about inlaid points, to include the whole rounded cnc points thing when I bought my Schon back in the early '90s. Some guy was bemoaning what a waste it was to inlay faux ("fake") points into the forearm of a cue, just for aesthetic purposes; better to get a cue with "real" (spliced) points if that's what you want (as it's about the construction/structure). I think they're two different things; but as I get older and experience more cues with different construction methods, I see his point. I agree aesthetics do matter, but for clarity we should agree on the terminology, especially as a lot of buyers may be a little inexperienced with how cues are constructed.
 
More marketing BS

Recuts are less work than veneers. More wood. Less work. All machined into place.
Even better is calling a 4 point house cue a custom full splice just because maybe the wood was selected by a builder and shipped to lets say another company that builds house cues like Schmelkie and then finished by a cue maker really isn't a custom full splice but a house cue with a name on it.
Recuts are not proings. Calling them points might be correct if you then call the points proings. Six points in six proings now there is one smelly description that would probably not fly with buyers or sellers. Why then are veneers not elevated to point status? Because they are not points as recuts are not excepting the outside proing.
Poorly educated buying public. Suckers.
Good post.
Nick :)
 
10 points

I agree with thread starter. Look at this:

Photo58%20012.jpg


How many points you can see? I say: still 6 points. Sure, every recut costs extra, there can be no different opinion on that.

5 up and 5 down with recuts.
 
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Recuts are not proings. Calling them points might be correct if you then call the points proings. Six points in six proings now there is one smelly description that would probably not fly with buyers or sellers. Why then are veneers not elevated to point status? Because they are not points as recuts are not excepting the outside proing.

WTF are proings???
 
As far as I know, inlays are different than points/prongs. If you cut a V groove point, it's a splice technically, not an inlay. Calling a re-cut point and "inlay" is incorrect IMO. You're taking the same steps as when you cut the original point. An inlay is a shallow pocket that is cut, and has a matching piece glued in to it.

Floating points are really inlays and not points at all (in a construction sense, i.e. splices), re-cut points are really points. Points in the buttsleeve are a whole 'nother can of worms...

I would still call a six pointer with re-cuts a six pointer (but I would say it had X number of re-cuts).
 
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So, if I do an inlay inside of an inlay. It only counts as one inlay. What if I do five inlays into one inlay should that only count as one inlay?

Larry
 
in other words you are using a point shaped inlay. An inlay is not a point. A point is not a term used just to describe a shape it is also used to mean a prong. An inlay is not a prong and not a point. I know, you are going to say it is not an lnlay. I argue it is, but in any event, it is still not a point. What ever someone wants to do inside the point, have at it, it is still all within 1 point.
Jordon,
This is, and will always be open to interpretation.
That includes construction and visual purposes.
There are so many different ways to construct a point for visual purposes that classifying it not a point would be difficult.

Lets take your thought process saying a point is not a point, if it is inlaid.
Cuemakers use different techniques to come to the same common visual effect.
Some cuemakers use "Flat Bottom Points".
For example, some cuemakers will make an Ivory Point cue by cutting 4 pockets and inlaying the ivory to make the points. Is this a pointed cue? Of course it is, even though they are all inlays of Ivory, and not spliced points.

Points over points, points into points, flat bottom points, short spliced points, full spliced points, reversed points, all open to interpretation from a visual perspective.

The Legend Tad Kohara told me this was his 28 point cue pictured below. If he wanted it to be classified that way from his perspective, I wouldn't be the one to tell him different :)
Best,
Ken
SouthwestandTad002.jpg
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SouthwestandTad003.jpg
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Recuts are less work than veneers. More wood. Less work. All machined into place.
Even better is calling a 4 point house cue a custom full splice just because maybe the wood was selected by a builder and shipped to lets say another company that builds house cues like Schmelkie and then finished by a cue maker really isn't a custom full splice but a house cue with a name on it.
Recuts are not proings. Calling them points might be correct if you then call the points proings. Six points in six proings now there is one smelly description that would probably not fly with buyers or sellers. Why then are veneers not elevated to point status? Because they are not points as recuts are not excepting the outside proing.
Poorly educated buying public. Suckers.
Good post.
Nick :)

I would STRONGLY disagree that recuts are less work than veneers.
 
I would STRONGLY disagree that recuts are less work than veneers.

Technically, they are. To get a proper spliced veneer point cue to look good is much harder to do than a recut. That being said, almost all of the cues made by Schon are "recuts" due to no splice on the "veneers". And it's my opinion that recuts are just another way to do a veneer styled cue without the leg work involved.
 
So Richard Harris and the Franklins and many others have been wrong about it the entire time. Somebody should send them this memo.

A recut point is a point inside another point, which IMO counts as two points, regardless of it's orientation/position in the cue. The way each of us classify or label it is as individual as we are, but the fact remains that a point recut with another point, is indeed two points. It's not a veneer or inlay, but an actual splice. The recut requires exactly the same machining procedure as the host point. By the OP's definition, if the two points were offest so the tips of the points don't line up, then it's two points, but if one is inside the other it is only one point. That makes zero sense to me. The OP is classifying the splice according to it's position in the cue rather than the technique required to create it.
 
Hows that

I would STRONGLY disagree that recuts are less work than veneers.

The machine is doing all the work You cut a hole then glue wedges in that hole and cut. It might take longer it might only because you have to wait on a mechanical process and curing of the adhesive.. You manufacture. Set up for it? If you can dedicate the machinery.
Nick :)
 
There's no way veneers are more work than recuts. I don't know any accomplished builder who would agree with that.

To drive my point(s) home, here's a couple pics of a recut pointed forearm. Classify it according to the OP's definition of recuts, and then honestly explain how veneers are harder or require more work. How many points does this forearm have? And then how many recuts?



Notice how each point is braided in, not just simply laid over the previous point:
 
There's no way veneers are more work than recuts

I tend to agree but I am awfully ignorant. The way I understand it,
veneers are just thin sheets glued to the point wood. Only one
"point" is actually cut. I wish I had a slight clue as to how recut
points were constructed. Definitely seems like more work on the
surface. If you have some free time can you share some of your
knowledge as to how recuts are constructed, for the dummies
like me? :embarrassed2:
 
I tend to agree but I am awfully ignorant. The way I understand it,
veneers are just thin sheets glued to the point wood. Only one
"point" is actually cut. I wish I had a slight clue as to how recut
points were constructed. Definitely seems like more work on the
surface. If you have some free time can you share some of your
knowledge as to how recuts are constructed, for the dummies
like me? :embarrassed2:

A point is constructed by cutting an angled v-groove in the wood and then gluing another piece of wood into said groove. When cut flush, it gives the triangular design that you know as a point.

Veneers are thin sheets of wood, usually dyed to give color, that are laminated together. The now laminated sheets are cut to encompass the point wood, giving it the outlined effect. Most guys put a mitered edge on the veneer lamination, much like the trim around a door or window fit together. Once glued into the groove with the point stock, you now have a triangular design that has a colorful outline.

Recuts are where the point groove is cut, stock glued in & cut flush, then repeated. You basically cut a point groove into the already existing point, and glue in a different kind of wood. It results in an outlined point design similar in appearance to veneers, except that there are no mitered glue joints. It also utilizes an array of contrasting colored woods rather than the thin sheets of dyed wood.

I would never say one way is better than the other because in reality they are completely different and both have their place. Sometimes they can be used in unison. The major difference is that recutting can open a much higher level of design potential, essentially limited only to imagination. You can only go so far with veneers alone. I guess the best way to describe it, from a builder's perspective, is that veneers are accent components where recuts are structural design components. That said, a simple single recut basically gives the same overall appearance as a veneer. Another major difference is that the recut thickness can be set for as thin or thick as you like, where veneers are only available in a few thicknesses. Again, one is not better than the other, merely different. Apples & oranges.

Here's a couple pics showing a forearm with points cut and glued, before and after cutting flush:



Here's the same blank with butterflies cut over the points, glued up, then cut flush:




Here is the same forearm after recutting with ebony over top of the tulip wood, to give the effect that the tulip points & flies are floating:
 
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I tend to agree but I am awfully ignorant. The way I understand it,
veneers are just thin sheets glued to the point wood. Only one
"point" is actually cut. I wish I had a slight clue as to how recut
points were constructed. Definitely seems like more work on the
surface. If you have some free time can you share some of your
knowledge as to how recuts are constructed, for the dummies
like me? :embarrassed2:

Generally, cue-maker cuts a v-groove, installs the point stock, turns it down, and cuts a second v-groove into the point stock he just installed (thus the term "re-cut"). The visual effect is that of a veneer, but with no seams. It's a point within a point.

Re-cuts = "point-ception"
 
Eric, that is an amazing blank. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you :) BTW, there are 96 individual v-groove splices in that forearm. Would that make it a 96 pointer? If not, then how many points is it?

IMO, recuts are points, or at least can be given specific situations. Labels & titles are merely a game of semantics. If you want to call a 6 point cue with recuts a 6-pointer with 6 recuts, then go ahead. If you want to call it a 12-pointer, then go ahead. It really is too petty to twist panties.
 
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