Pursuit of the Perfect Table

[BasementDweller]

We really need a new thread to discuss the never ending pursuit of the perfect table. I know there was a time when we all played on less than "perfect" tables and somehow we all were perfectly happy playing on them. Actually there were more of us then too. Hmmm.

Now even if a player is happy playing on such a beast it must be because they are just an idiot that doesn't know any better. Nah -- it's not that. Some of us are just content walking along the local hiking trail. We really don't need to be constantly reminded that climbing Mt Everest is a much more worthy pursuit.

I paid 1100 dollars for an AMF Grand Prix several years ago from a room that closed A buddy and I got it into my basement and I got my hands on some 760 and set it up myself with the assistance of some things I learned on here. Now the table isn't "perfect" but I have really enjoyed it and all of my guests have been impressed with how well it plays. These are guys that play a lot of pool too.

The thing is -- pool is really a blue-collar thing, and most of us can't really justify the expense of having the perfect table. But what's worse is -- collectively when we walk into a room we expect to be greeted by a row of prestine tables with specific size pockets or the grumbling commences. This is in the midst of a declining population of interested players. It doesn't make sense.

I guess maybe I'm just a simple man but I don't get all the clamoring for the perfect table.

 

[bradsh98]

It's all relative. How good is 'good enough'?
No table is perfect. There will ALWAYS be room for improvements. However, most improvements cost money. So, where do you draw the line?

Further, who's line is it to draw? Is it the consumer? The manufacturer? The guy who works on it?

In my opinion, a perfect table is one that is set up EXACTLY as the manufacturer designed it to be. Now, we all know that no commercially available table is perfect. However, poka-yoke in the design builds consistency of end-product. This is what it takes to develop the 'perfect state'.

In that regard, Diamond has it pretty close. Despite the known banking flaws, every table that is delivered is about as close to the 'perfect state' as we have seen thus far.

In my opinion, "the way a table should play" is all a matter of opinion anyway. What is the percentage of energy loss a ball "should" have on each cushion rebound. There is no standard. Further yet, I am not aware of any way to reasonably quantify it.

People, like myself, can modify tables, in accordance with our own beliefs of how they should play. But, do we have any right to say that our changes are actually improvements? In some cases, ABSOLUTELY. In other cases, I'm not so sure.

An example: depending on the type of cushion used, I may change the nose height, which has an effect on the rebound. In a perfect world, why wouldn't all cushions be mounted at the same nose height? Suppose one type of cushion plays slower than another. Instead of manipulating the rail, to accommodate for the speed of the cushion, why not leave it the same?

Another example: Suppose a manufacturer builds a table with a 143° pocket opening. Even though I feel that 141° will make a much better playing pocket, is it really an improvement to make the change? Or, should the table be left to play foolishly difficult, as the manufacturer designed it?

Without a governing body, there is no good answer.

 

[De420MadHatter]

It's all relative. How good is 'good enough'?
No table is perfect. There will ALWAYS be room for improvements. However, most improvements cost money. So, where do you draw the line?

Further, who's line is it to draw? Is it the consumer? The manufacturer? The guy who works on it?

In my opinion, a perfect table is one that is set up EXACTLY as the manufacturer designed it to be. Now, we all know that no commercially available table is perfect. However, poka-yoke in the design builds consistency of end-product. This is what it takes to develop the 'perfect state'.

In that regard, Diamond has it pretty close. Despite the known banking flaws, every table that is delivered is about as close to the 'perfect state' as we have seen thus far.

In my opinion, "the way a table should play" is all a matter of opinion anyway. What is the percentage of energy loss a ball "should" have on each cushion rebound. There is no standard. Further yet, I am not aware of any way to reasonably quantify it.

People, like myself, can modify tables, in accordance with our own beliefs of how they should play. But, do we have any right to say that our changes are actually improvements? In some cases, ABSOLUTELY. In other cases, I'm not so sure.

An example: depending on the type of cushion used, I may change the nose height, which has an effect on the rebound. In a perfect world, why wouldn't all cushions be mounted at the same nose height? Suppose one type of cushion plays slower than another. Instead of manipulating the rail, to accommodate for the speed of the cushion, why not leave it the same?

Another example: Suppose a manufacturer builds a table with a 143° pocket opening. Even though I feel that 141° will make a much better playing pocket, is it really an improvement to make the change? Or, should the table be left to play foolishly difficult, as the manufacturer designed it?

Without a governing body, there is no good answer.

It's governed by the Cobra. He's watching, and saw your post ^^^. Be warned!!

 

[BasementDweller]

(I was doing some searching and came across this thread)

Bumping my own thread from a few years back as I think it's still relevant today, especially after Derby and the move to tighter pockets. I really don't understand the clamoring for the perfect table ( sometimes with tight pockets) from say - intermediate players. I know guys that I can easily beat and I'm no world beater, who consistently complain about pockets being too big.

I respect great players wanting to be increasingly challenged. So I understand that aspect of the tight table push. I guess I'm just a bit disheartened that Diamond tables have become not only the standard but also the expectation.

Maybe I'm alone, but I still think challenging, fun pool can still be played on something other than a perfect table

 

[Black-Balled]

We really need a new thread to discuss the never ending pursuit of the perfect table. I know there was a time when we all played on less than "perfect" tables and somehow we all were perfectly happy playing on them. Actually there were more of us then too. Hmmm.

Now even if a player is happy playing on such a beast it must be because they are just an idiot that doesn't know any better. Nah -- it's not that. Some of us are just content walking along the local hiking trail. We really don't need to be constantly reminded that climbing Mt Everest is a much more worthy pursuit.

I paid 1100 dollars for an AMF Grand Prix several years ago from a room that closed A buddy and I got it into my basement and I got my hands on some 760 and set it up myself with the assistance of some things I learned on here. Now the table isn't "perfect" but I have really enjoyed it and all of my guests have been impressed with how well it plays. These are guys that play a lot of pool too.

The thing is -- pool is really a blue-collar thing, and most of us can't really justify the expense of having the perfect table. But what's worse is -- collectively when we walk into a room we expect to be greeted by a row of prestine tables with specific size pockets or the grumbling commences. This is in the midst of a declining population of interested players. It doesn't make sense.

I guess maybe I'm just a simple man but I don't get all the clamoring for the perfect table.

Perfect tables are awesome and it is one of them things: if you don't know, you don't know.

 

[BasementDweller]

Nah -- I appreciate a really nice table. I guess I just don't have to have one to be happy. Maybe it's more of an overall personality trait. I'm due to redo my less-than-perfect AMF Grand Prix that I paid 1000 dollars for 10 years ago. I've gotten a lot enjoyment out of it while recognizing it's not a Diamond. I may be a bit of a hypocrite as I'm looking to have a quality mechanic redo it. Last time I did it myself and it turned out quite well. Anyways...

 

[iusedtoberich]

There is a lot of truth to this post, imo. At my apt home, I have a GC4 set up to factory conditions (perfect imo). At my leasing office, there is a complete garbage 7’ table. Rolls off a mile. Nails in pockets. One pocket half missing. Hit the wall when I shoot. Polyester balls. Etc etc. nonetheless, every time I go to the leasing office I’ll hit balls on the table and enjoy myself.

 

[Black-Balled]

Don't get me wrong...any pool is better than no pool!

 

[Fatboy]

Perfect tables are awesome and it is one of them things: if you don't know, you don't know.View attachment 685641

Nice looking room

 

[OldOrvis]

We really need a new thread to discuss the never ending pursuit of the perfect table. I know there was a time when we all played on less than "perfect" tables and somehow we all were perfectly happy playing on them. Actually there were more of us then too. Hmmm.

Now even if a player is happy playing on such a beast it must be because they are just an idiot that doesn't know any better. Nah -- it's not that. Some of us are just content walking along the local hiking trail. We really don't need to be constantly reminded that climbing Mt Everest is a much more worthy pursuit.

I paid 1100 dollars for an AMF Grand Prix several years ago from a room that closed A buddy and I got it into my basement and I got my hands on some 760 and set it up myself with the assistance of some things I learned on here. Now the table isn't "perfect" but I have really enjoyed it and all of my guests have been impressed with how well it plays. These are guys that play a lot of pool too.

The thing is -- pool is really a blue-collar thing, and most of us can't really justify the expense of having the perfect table. But what's worse is -- collectively when we walk into a room we expect to be greeted by a row of prestine tables with specific size pockets or the grumbling commences. This is in the midst of a declining population of interested players. It doesn't make sense.

I guess maybe I'm just a simple man but I don't get all the clamoring for the perfect table.

Just a buy a Diamond and move on

 

[buckshotshoey]

The perfect table is like a woman... its all in the eyes of the beholder.

I have my perfect table (and my perfect wife). It's a 9 foot Gold Crown 3 with 5 in pockets. It's all I ever wanted, and all I'll ever need. I will be happy with it for the rest of my life.

But that doesn't mean I won't see other tables on the side!

 

[DynoDan]

Just a buy a Diamond and move on

Playing on the 14.1 tournament table in V. B. was almost worth the 2K mile drive.

 

[hang-the-9]

You really just need a certain minimum of quality, anything past that is a bonus. Cues are the same way. You can get a $50 cue that plays good and is built well, a $600 cue with an LD shaft with points is a bonus. A table with clean non-worn through cloth with normal pockets and rails that are at least OK that does not have bad roll offs is just fine. A 3 yr old Diamond that gets reclothed every year with sharp 4.5" pockets is a bonus. Recently I went to just a random place I picked on a work trip, they had a 10 foot Diamond table there, and they local guys were saying it's OK but needs new cloth to be good. I'm like, the cloth is not that bad, and you guys have a 10 ft Diamond here! Who cares if the cloth is not pristine. In the couple of days I was there no one aside from me was on that table, in fact they had some league there and they were using the poor table for their cases and jackets they had to move so I could play on it.

 

[Chip Roberson]

(I was doing some searching and came across this thread)

Bumping my own thread from a few years back as I think it's still relevant today, especially after Derby and the move to tighter pockets. I really don't understand the clamoring for the perfect table ( sometimes with tight pockets) from say - intermediate players. I know guys that I can easily beat and I'm no world beater, who consistently complain about pockets being too big.

I respect great players wanting to be increasingly challenged. So I understand that aspect of the tight table push. I guess I'm just a bit disheartened that Diamond tables have become not only the standard but also the expectation.

Maybe I'm alone, but I still think challenging, fun pool can still be played on something other than a perfect table

I remember reading many years ago when Mr Mosconi was still with Brunswick as their touring pro about pocket size. He told the company engineers to leave the pocket size at 5 inches if they wanted to bring the sport to more people. Tight pockets are great for the pro's , but people to enjoy the game , let the pocket size stay the way it has been.
I remember a few years back , I had gotten my 60 year old kid brother into a foursome at a resort golf match at Prim Land Resort. Tough place to play golf and in the summer time if your ball is near outta bounds leave it there, too many rattlesnakes for my taste to go hunting for em. Any way before we played , my brother wanted for all of us to play the Blue tee's all the way back. Bro couldn't break a hundred on a par 3 course much less where I'd brought him to. I asked him if he thought if he could brake par if we were to play the red tees and of course he said no. I then asked why he wanted to play from the tees all the way back. He stated he wanted to
experience the course as it should be played. Guess some folks just like the brutality of it all, like wanting to play on tables so tight that they wouldn't have a chance of running out a rack

 

[fastone371]

My perfect table would be a Mark Gregory Anniversary. I love the way my "Diamondized" Gold Crown I plays but those Anniversary's are stunning.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Perfect tables are awesome and it is one of them things: if you don't know, you don't know.View attachment 685641

these tables balls and cloths are getting uglier by the yr

gimme wood , green carpet, double white cueballs
das it

 

[dendweller]

(I was doing some searching and came across this thread)

Bumping my own thread from a few years back as I think it's still relevant today, especially after Derby and the move to tighter pockets. I really don't understand the clamoring for the perfect table ( sometimes with tight pockets) from say - intermediate players. I know guys that I can easily beat and I'm no world beater, who consistently complain about pockets being too big.

I respect great players wanting to be increasingly challenged. So I understand that aspect of the tight table push. I guess I'm just a bit disheartened that Diamond tables have become not only the standard but also the expectation.

Maybe I'm alone, but I still think challenging, fun pool can still be played on something other than a perfect table

I agree. There's two sides, some people create a pristine environment in their home with the best tables and lights. There's nothing wrong with that.
Luckily, I'd rather not create an environment that makes it a let down when I got to a pool hall to play a match. And that costs way less. My table is good, but I did the rails and everything else is a little more suspect.

 

[GoldCrown]

A room in Santa Monica. If you think this is wacky you should see the level. It was great for trick shots. Shoot down the table from the corner and the ball would make a u turn to the opposing corner pocket

 

[dendweller]

I remember reading many years ago when Mr Mosconi was still with Brunswick as their touring pro about pocket size. He told the company engineers to leave the pocket size at 5 inches if they wanted to bring the sport to more people. Tight pockets are great for the pro's , but people to enjoy the game , let the pocket size stay the way it has been.
I remember a few years back , I had gotten my 60 year old kid brother into a foursome at a resort golf match at Prim Land Resort. Tough place to play golf and in the summer time if your ball is near outta bounds leave it there, too many rattlesnakes for my taste to go hunting for em. Any way before we played , my brother wanted for all of us to play the Blue tee's all the way back. Bro couldn't break a hundred on a par 3 course much less where I'd brought him to. I asked him if he thought if he could brake par if we were to play the red tees and of course he said no. I then asked why he wanted to play from the tees all the way back. He stated he wanted to
experience the course as it should be played. Guess some folks just like the brutality of it all, like wanting to play on tables so tight that they wouldn't have a chance of running out a rack

I don't know I want tight tables when I go out and play a match. I want a tight table at home so the pockets look big when I do go out.
Far as blue tees go, if your not long with a decent handicap I don't think you've got any business being on them, just slows everyone down.

 

[telinoz]

I am a fan of consistency and standards.

One of the reasons Snooker is so stable, is they have standardised everything.
Pockets are same design, cushions, cloth, balls.
Just talking about equipment here.

The last big innovation was steel block cushions.
More reliable bounce and this has been taken up by all the major manufacturers.
Professional tables are heated as well.

What I am still waiting to see in pool, as a player and organiser is this equipment consistency.
Settle on corner and middle pocket specs for professional pool.
The range is ok from WPA for everything else, but really we also need to settle on an amateur spec.
Imagine how easy it will be for bars, poolhalls, clubs all over the World if there was one spec for pockets.
Templates, rubber stock prices all come down.
Players know what to expect.

So, for me the perfect table is a standard one.
I live in hope.