Push out 9 ball

Originally Posted by sjm
I grew up on this type of nine ball and was glad when it disappeared. It was more of a shot maker's game back then, and to some, shooting pool well and shotmaking are one fo the same. For such people, I can understand why they miss it.

However, Texas Express brought many new skills into the game. More defense, more kicking, more jump shots, more two-way and other multi-purpose shots allows Texas Express players to show far more creativity than their counterparts of thirty years ago. Texas express has much greater variety, requires more finesse, more billiard knowledge and better defense than two shot shootout. And, for all those who lament that Texas Express has a luck element, let's not overlook that Texas Express penalizes a player far more than two shot shootout when they make a position play error. Being allowed to push out when you miss shape is, to me, very "lucky" indeed.

A return to two shot shootout would be very disappointing for this fan. May that version of nine ball rest in peace.
 
Gunn_Slinger said:
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In your first post, you said the the player who pushes first had the upper hand.
Now , in your rules , by that logic , the second player who pushes has the upper hand.
I don't see that your rules are any better that the rules that players in my day used.
In 8 years of playing app. 300 nights a year at Beenies, I never saw anyone
play with your rules. Beenies had the best players in the country come thru
every month , plus road agents and local short stops.
Someone always has the best of it no matter what rules you use,
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That is the whole point of two fouls by the same player.
Why should the first foul have the advantage?......it’s a FOUL, for heaven’s sake.

Saw lots of nice moves at the Rack with this rule in your same time period.
 
Black-Balled said:
You will have to answer that one for us, as it was you who claimed there was a push in 1p.

There isn't one, which is my point: if a push makes sense in a pool game, it should make sense in all pool games. But it doesn't make sense, which is why it doesn't belong.
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The intentional foul in one-pocket is to keep from giving your opponent a shot that you don't want them to have. It costs you a ball, but you think that is better than some other option in the long run of the game.

The same goes for the push-out in 9-ball. It is a strategy move that you feel is to your advantage at that point in the game.

Go ahead and believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what Earl, Buddy, Keith, CJ, and the rest believe.
 
i need somethin said:
Can someone please explain to me the rules of push out 9 ball?

I dont know if theres a rule book on this type of 9 ball.

All comments are much appreciated.
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Since it seems to be regional, I'll explain how all of the top players played around here in the 1960s....

In the San Francisco area it was pretty much as HawaiianEye said. You were never required to hit the object ball but after a first foul the incoming player had the option of passing the shot back. If the shooter after a first foul also fouled on the next shot, the other player got ball in hand anywhere.

All balls made on a scratch or driven off the table were spotted. After a scratch it was cue ball in kitchen with the object ball spotting if behind the line. Sending an object ball onto the floor was not a foul. There were no jump cues -- any jumping was done with your playing cue.

A possible sequence would be: you play a safe and leave me hooked on the three. I push out to a very thin cut on the three ball. You slice it in the corner, but the cue ball hits a ball and scratches. The three spots up and I get ball in hand anywhere.

Another: You miss the three and scratch. It ends up behind the line. The cue ball is in hand in the kitchen. The three ball spots, but it is behind a cluster in the rack area and can't be hit directly. I pass the shot back to you and you have to kick at the three and not foul or give up ball in hand.
 
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I should have said how all of the top players preferred to play nine ball. A friend of mine who played semi-pro level or higher lined up a game and invited me to watch. He was uncomfortable because the guy wanted to play "best effort" which meant you had to try to hit the ball. Even if you missed the ball completely, it was not a foul -- you just lost your turn and your opponent had shoot. I think you can understand how that might lead to some sharp practices. Fortunately for my friend, the guy didn't have a chance even if he "oops, I missed it" a few times.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Since it seems to be regional, I'll explain how all of the top players played around here in the 1960s....

In the San Francisco area it was pretty much as HawaiianEye said. You were never required to hit the object ball but after a first foul the incoming player had the option of passing the shot back. If the shooter after a first foul also fouled on the next shot, the other player got ball in hand anywhere.

All balls made on a scratch or driven off the table were spotted. After a scratch it was cue ball in kitchen with the object ball spotting if behind the line. Sending an object ball onto the floor was not a foul. There were no jump cues -- any jumping was done with your playing cue.

A possible sequence would be: you play a safe and leave me hooked on the three. I push out to a very thin cut on the three ball. You slice it in the corner, but the cue ball hits a ball and scratches. The three spots up and I get ball in hand anywhere.

Another: You miss the three and scratch. It ends up behind the line. The cue ball is in hand in the kitchen. The three ball spots, but it is behind a cluster in the rack area and can't be hit directly. I pass the shot back to you and you have to kick at the three and not foul or give up ball in hand.
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I haven't played it in years, but from memory, what you are saying is correct. There were many versions, but the version you just explained was a very popular version where I grew up and learned.
 
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A wrinkle I just thought of is that a stalemate is possible unless there is a three foul rule. I don't recall any three foul rule. Example: I have no shot and the 1 is in a cluster on the cushion. I shoot the 7 softly against the cluster making the 1 impossible to hit. Nobody wants to break it out since the 9 is sitting near a pocket. Ball in hand doesn't help.
 
HawaiianEye said:
The intentional foul in one-pocket is to keep from giving your opponent a shot that you don't want them to have. It costs you a ball, but you think that is better than some other option in the long run of the game.

The same goes for the push-out in 9-ball. It is a strategy move that you feel is to your advantage at that point in the game.

Go ahead and believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what Earl, Buddy, Keith, CJ, and the rest believe.
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Of course they preferred pusshout...and an equal # of top players could be cited, to back up both games.

At any levell worth discussin, the majority of times a player won't like his shot and chooses to push is either the result of poor positional play or a good safety from his opponent. He should have to take the shot, not punt.

Proponents of push out cite the lucky leave. I bet you can watch any A and above match and the prior scenarios com up far more often than the luck leaves.
 
Black-Balled said:
Originally Posted by sjm
I grew up on this type of nine ball and was glad when it disappeared. It was more of a shot maker's game back then, and to some, shooting pool well and shotmaking are one fo the same. For such people, I can understand why they miss it.

However, Texas Express brought many new skills into the game. More defense, more kicking, more jump shots, more two-way and other multi-purpose shots allows Texas Express players to show far more creativity than their counterparts of thirty years ago. Texas express has much greater variety, requires more finesse, more billiard knowledge and better defense than two shot shootout. And, for all those who lament that Texas Express has a luck element, let's not overlook that Texas Express penalizes a player far more than two shot shootout when they make a position play error. Being allowed to push out when you miss shape is, to me, very "lucky" indeed.

A return to two shot shootout would be very disappointing for this fan. May that version of nine ball rest in peace.
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One foul was invented about 69' -71' buy the Jansco Brothers and Weenie Bennie to
speed up tournament play...only. No one liked it and no one gambled using those 1970's rules. Pushout was played by most gamblers. It was not a game for shotmakers...unless you call Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe , Lassiter, Taylor, etc
'shotmakers'. They played better position than most 'pros' today. And they walked out of the tournament room after playing 1 foul and went to gambling at pushout!
Don't worry, its not coming back. Everyone wants to 'duck' now! Its really sad.
 
Gunn_Slinger said:
One foul was invented about 69' -71' buy the Jansco Brothers and Weenie Bennie to
speed up tournament play...only. No one liked it and no one gambled using those 1970's rules. Pushout was played by most gamblers. It was not a game for shotmakers...unless you call Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe , Lassiter, Taylor, etc
'shotmakers'. They played better position than most 'pros' today. And they walked out of the tournament room after playing 1 foul and went to gambling at pushout!
Don't worry, its not coming back. Everyone wants to 'duck' now! Its really sad.
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Tappity Tap Tap Tap
 
Black-Balled said:
Proponents of push out cite the lucky leave. /QUOTE]

FWIW, I PREFER to play that you call shots and safes. I prefer that all of the "luck" that can be taken out of the game be eliminated.

You call the pocket and miss, I can give you whatever you leave back. You call a safe, I have to shoot what you leave.
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There were a couple other rules BUT FIRST....anytime your matching up, rules should ALWAYS be Clear before you EVER break the first rack .

The other two instances were around the two foul rule....a good rule that tweaked it was this.
If you pushed out, and I took the the shot, and if I scratched YOU would get BIH.

The other rule was you can't play safe off the same ball on the same rail three times in a row, otherwise ball in hand for your opponent. If both players have nursed the ball twice on the same cushion, legally, the next shooter MUST drive that ball to a different cushion, if not BIH.
 
Island Drive said:
There were a couple other rules BUT FIRST....anytime your matching up, rules should ALWAYS be Clear before you EVER break the first rack .

The other two instances were around the two foul rule....a good rule that tweaked it was this.
If you pushed out, and I took the the shot, and if I scratched YOU would get BIH.

The other rule was you can't play safe off the same ball on the same rail three times in a row, otherwise ball in hand for your opponent. If both players have nursed the ball twice on the same cushion, legally, the next shooter MUST drive that ball to a different cushion, if not BIH.
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Any method of this game is preferable to one-foul BIH, if you ask me.

And jump cues should be used for firewood, also. If you are going to jump, use your full-length cue that you are playing the current game with.
 
Bar pool can be fun sometimes, I guess. But how do you prove that the shot moved 4 balls and touched 3,1 2 and 1 rails, respectively, while the pocketed ball touched the near rack, then the outer facing and then the inner facing again?

You didn't address the lucky leave frequency point.
HawaiianEye said:
Black-Balled said:
Proponents of push out cite the lucky leave. /QUOTE]

FWIW, I PREFER to play that you call shots and safes. I prefer that all of the "luck" that can be taken out of the game be eliminated.

You call the pocket and miss, I can give you whatever you leave back. You call a safe, I have to shoot what you leave.
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When did the push the, if position was so Good? After a safe?

In English- when did they push out, if their position was so good? After a safe?

Gunn_Slinger said:
One foul was invented about 69' -71' buy the Jansco Brothers and Weenie Bennie to
speed up tournament play...only. No one liked it and no one gambled using those 1970's rules. Pushout was played by most gamblers. It was not a game for shotmakers...unless you call Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe , Lassiter, Taylor, etc
'shotmakers'. They played better position than most 'pros' today. And they walked out of the tournament room after playing 1 foul and went to gambling at pushout!
Don't worry, its not coming back. Everyone wants to 'duck' now! Its really sad.
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Black-Balled said:
When did the push the, if position was so Good? After a safe?

In English- when did they push out, if their position was so good? After a safe?
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Lol. I didn't push put much. After the break. After my opponent missed and got a lucky safe. I could bank and shoot and knew how to take the balls off the table the right
way. I won games by knowing HOW to push out that I probably would have lost
playing 1 foul.
My offer remains: play you some 9 ball. I play pushout & you play 1 one foul.
Winner gets dinner at the Restaurant of his choice.
C-ya buddy. Oh, not on a diamond!
It can be on your GC or mine...lol.
 
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