gesan said:
thanks for the info. anyway, I was refering to how the push-out is used according to the rules before us now. Am I still incorrect?
Push shot with BIH?
- Thread starter arsenius
- Start date
thanks for the info. anyway, I was refering to how the push-out is used according to the rules before us now. Am I still incorrect?
worldison2 said:
I disagree. With ball in hand here, I'll hit the cue into the nine ball to hang it over the top corner pocket. My opponent will be forced to foul and knock the one in, as I'd give them ball in hand again if they didn't and the rack would end on three fouls. When my opponent knocks in the one, I'll make the two nine combo. Check mate!
i'm sorry i posted a wei table. i should remember that half of y'all forget the original question and its context when presented with a specific layout. this is not about the table i posted, but the concept it's intended to illustrate. whether or not pushing is the right thing to do here is not the issue, whether it's legal is.
sorry, had to rant a little, this always happens when a WEI gets posted.
-s
sorry, had to rant a little, this always happens when a WEI gets posted.
-s
arsenius said:Is it legal to push with ball in hand? The idea just occurred to me the other day out of the blue. I haven't tried it. The only situation I can think of where it would be useful is playing a weaker player. You might break up a cluster of balls and leave your opponent a tough shot, or even an easy shot if you were sure they couldn't run out. Of course, this wouldn't show much respect for the opponent.
BTW, I looked at the rules and it said that the break must be legal to take a push shot. However, the rules also state that the break can be legal even if a scratch occurs. At least that's how I understand it.
Has anyone ever seen this done in a match?
Whether it is allowed or not, there would be no situation in which you gain anything by doing so.
No. I suppose you could announce that you are pushing out, but the referee should probably ignore you. After you "push out" which isn't really a push out, your opponent will have ball in hand and must shoot.arsenius said:
LILJOHN30 said:I thought we decided that with bih after the scratch the push wasn't an option?I don't want to argue either were all pool players.I guess the answer is it depends where your playing.As the rules tend to change from area to area.
thought of the same thing. that's why I also said BIH and no Push ! the legality of the Push-Out being utilized is nullified by virtue of the CB being scratched or fouled out. since a PUSH-OUT in a BIH does not exist, and it is universally accepted to just intentionally foul a BIH in a difficult lay-out, then Push-Out is nothing more but a pain in the head. just play the darn race to forfeit rule.
sjm said:
since you opted to push, he could simply give back the layout ! remember, in a push, he has the option to take or not to take the shot.
My bad
Sorry for thinking the one-ball gets spotted.....been playing a lot of 14.1 lately.
Sorry, I got my games confused! I now realize that the one ball DOESN'T come back up. Thanks for the correction. LilJOHN, you're solution is good based on the 2-ball being the next one to use for the 3rd safety, but SJM also has a really good winning situation. I would lean toward the 3rd safety because I'd probably mess up gettin the 9 ball properly placed for SJM's winner.LILJOHN30 said:
Sorry for thinking the one-ball gets spotted.....been playing a lot of 14.1 lately.
sjm said:
thanks for the clarification !
I can think of one.
Okay, everyone thinks this is illegal. But does anyone care to comment on the wording of the rules and the points I made about them? Hail Mary Shot said I was looking at them from a weird perspective, but shouldn't the rules be clear from whatever perspective you take? Isn't the point of rules? (I've done some work on computer standards, so that's probably why I'm nitpicky.) I'd like to discuss that, rather than just being told "No it's a foul, everybody knows that's a foul."
I was not thinking of a time when you couldn't hit the one even with BIH. As others mentioned, in the case brought up by steev, it is just a race to 3 fouls, with the breaker at the disadvantage. I wouldn't try to touch any balls in that case, for fear of actually opening something up. I figure I'll take the best of it if he tries to jump onto the one ball or something. If I were the breaker there I would break up the cluster to at least force my opponent to try to run out. I would rather lose that way than take an automatic 3 fouls.
In my OP I was thinking about something like this Wei table. No easy way for me to break out the three ball, even with ball in hand. My opponent can't jump to save his life (as I mentioned, this would only be useful for a strong opponent vs. weaker opponent), but I'm confident I can make the 1 jumping. If you find a way to kick the 1 ball, or break out the 3 ball, that's great but you'll be missing my point. Pretend they're not there, or that the players don't have the skill to do so!
You might play this shot whether you had BIH or not if you didn't think the other guy would get out. A lot of the time with great players they will push out and try to tie something up since the pusher is usually at a disadvantage. This is the opposite. The pushing player figures to make the jump. But if the breaker takes the shot he probably will just foul again anyways. So, whenever the pusher gets back to the table he will have an easier run out.
Okay, everyone thinks this is illegal. But does anyone care to comment on the wording of the rules and the points I made about them? Hail Mary Shot said I was looking at them from a weird perspective, but shouldn't the rules be clear from whatever perspective you take? Isn't the point of rules? (I've done some work on computer standards, so that's probably why I'm nitpicky.) I'd like to discuss that, rather than just being told "No it's a foul, everybody knows that's a foul."
I was not thinking of a time when you couldn't hit the one even with BIH. As others mentioned, in the case brought up by steev, it is just a race to 3 fouls, with the breaker at the disadvantage. I wouldn't try to touch any balls in that case, for fear of actually opening something up. I figure I'll take the best of it if he tries to jump onto the one ball or something. If I were the breaker there I would break up the cluster to at least force my opponent to try to run out. I would rather lose that way than take an automatic 3 fouls.
CrownCityCorey said:
In my OP I was thinking about something like this Wei table. No easy way for me to break out the three ball, even with ball in hand. My opponent can't jump to save his life (as I mentioned, this would only be useful for a strong opponent vs. weaker opponent), but I'm confident I can make the 1 jumping. If you find a way to kick the 1 ball, or break out the 3 ball, that's great but you'll be missing my point. Pretend they're not there, or that the players don't have the skill to do so!
You might play this shot whether you had BIH or not if you didn't think the other guy would get out. A lot of the time with great players they will push out and try to tie something up since the pusher is usually at a disadvantage. This is the opposite. The pushing player figures to make the jump. But if the breaker takes the shot he probably will just foul again anyways. So, whenever the pusher gets back to the table he will have an easier run out.
arsenius said:
I understand your dilemma on trying to interpret the rules. I, myself was also confused from the beginning, by the wordings alone. however, I found out that I was also responsible for complicating matters on how I see it, by my standards or personal interpretation. like how I wanted specifics to be illustrated in the rules. though it may appear that some rules needed to be fully explained, I just found out that they don't have to be. I was just not looking on the right direction or rule to answer my question. all I can suggest is try to look up those rules again. who knows, you might have missed some things because you're trying to contradict them from the beginning.
Thanks, HMS. I read them one more time (must have been about 50 times now!) and I finally got it. The "Opening Break Shot" refers to the Standard Rules. I thought that part in the 9 Ball "Legal Break Shot" rules was self-referential, which is why I was so confused.
I still don't like how that part of the rules is written. They repeat too many things, which is what made it confusing for me. For example, it says that you must hit the 1 first. That is understood from the fact that you are required to hit the lowest numbered ball first on every shot. If you program you know where I'm coming from maybe. Code/Rule reuse.
I don't think anyone will convince me that a push could never be useful with BIH however, but please try!
I still don't like how that part of the rules is written. They repeat too many things, which is what made it confusing for me. For example, it says that you must hit the 1 first. That is understood from the fact that you are required to hit the lowest numbered ball first on every shot. If you program you know where I'm coming from maybe. Code/Rule reuse.
I don't think anyone will convince me that a push could never be useful with BIH however, but please try!
Are you saying somebody tried this in one of these professional tournaments? That's the only way you'd know.
On the shot after a legal break a pushout is a legal shot. The incoming player does not get ball in hand following an illegal break, as he does following a foul on an otherwise legal break - the implication being that the break was "legal" whether or not there was a foul.
The question has merit. The fact that you played in a professional tournament is an "appeal to authority" which carries no weight.
pj
chgo
Sorry, Jude, I was wrong about this - just looked it up in the World Standardized Rules (maybe I shoulda done that first?). I could swear an illegal break was once treated differently.
But it's the rule that has weight, not the fact that you played in a professional tournament (unless a pushout after a foul was tried there).
pj
chgo