Exactly. Johnnyt
Putnam vs A. Fisher - why I'm taking sides on this one.
- Thread starter lady9ball
- Start date
Exactly. Johnnyt
adam boyd
Banned
that does make sense, yu ram cha beat svb that was a win for the women in itself imo.
Mass makes Class.
If there were as many women playing pool as men then the amount of women who played world class speed would be roughly the same as the amount of men. Same in chess. Golf would possibly lag behind because of the difference in physical power on average. The putting ability would probably be about the same though.
Shawn's statement that one woman against 20 men means she would not win holds true now but so what? She would have to be head and shoulders above the competition to win as would any man who plays. Pick any name and put them against 20 other elite players and you will lose more often than you will win by betting on them to beat the field.
If Erfen Reyes - IN HIS PRIME - were to play a double elimination tournament every week for ten weeks against the top 20 players in the world he wouldn't win half of them or even a quarter of them.
Shwan can and will lose to a woman because if the women are "allowed" to continue playing against the men then eventually he will face an woman who flat out outplays him in that set.
Karen Corr has already proven she can win on the Joss Tour and that is against WORLD CHAMPIONS.
The list of people who have won ONE Joss Tour event is small. Karen has two and many many high finishes.
If there were as many women playing pool as men then the amount of women who played world class speed would be roughly the same as the amount of men. Same in chess. Golf would possibly lag behind because of the difference in physical power on average. The putting ability would probably be about the same though.
Shawn's statement that one woman against 20 men means she would not win holds true now but so what? She would have to be head and shoulders above the competition to win as would any man who plays. Pick any name and put them against 20 other elite players and you will lose more often than you will win by betting on them to beat the field.
If Erfen Reyes - IN HIS PRIME - were to play a double elimination tournament every week for ten weeks against the top 20 players in the world he wouldn't win half of them or even a quarter of them.
Shwan can and will lose to a woman because if the women are "allowed" to continue playing against the men then eventually he will face an woman who flat out outplays him in that set.
Karen Corr has already proven she can win on the Joss Tour and that is against WORLD CHAMPIONS.
The list of people who have won ONE Joss Tour event is small. Karen has two and many many high finishes.
That is not fair sharking technique...honor among theives, for chrissakes, man! We don't need to know that badly.
Oh- car racing is another example of something females should theoretically do as well as males. Of course, the stupiduty factor enters here. Perhaps women know enough to avoid it.
I don't know what time it's scheduled, but I have to root extra hard for Allison in this match. I dropped in on the TAR stream the other night in time to hear Shawn's views on women playing with men in points events which I tend to agree with (the women have nothing to lose points wise, while the men do, etc). But he went on to say that the women have no chance of ever winning a mens event, which I think is a pretty bold statement. He also mentioned the matches in the recent past where he has played a woman but didn't mention the outcomes until someone in the chat asked. He laughed and suggested that that was a very silly question - in other words, he would NEVER lose to a woman.
Therefore, I just can't help hoping that she KICKS HIS A$$!
PUTNAM defeats ALLISON 11-5...........:thumbup:
?????????hmmmm???
Wonder what would me said if shawn entered a womens event HMMMMM???
I don't know what time it's scheduled, but I have to root extra hard for Allison in this match. I dropped in on the TAR stream the other night in time to hear Shawn's views on women playing with men in points events which I tend to agree with (the women have nothing to lose points wise, while the men do, etc). But he went on to say that the women have no chance of ever winning a mens event, which I think is a pretty bold statement. He also mentioned the matches in the recent past where he has played a woman but didn't mention the outcomes until someone in the chat asked. He laughed and suggested that that was a very silly question - in other words, he would NEVER lose to a woman.
Therefore, I just can't help hoping that she KICKS HIS A$$!
Wonder what would me said if shawn entered a womens event HMMMMM???
In the first year about 20% of the time. In the second year probably about 40% of the time, in the third year probably about 50% of the time.
This is based on the hypothesis that the top ten men are about as good as they are ever going to get while the women could theoretically reach the same level as the men. Because the women would be playing the top men in competition every weekend they would get plenty of opportunity to learn what they men know and should practice those things during the week. Week after week the women would be getting stronger as players while the men would not be improving.
After a period of time each of the women will have reached the highest level that they can obtain and if they have the right attitude and the physical skills there is no logical reason why they could not be as good as each of the top ten men.
That's how I see it.
All -
I know everyone will state the exception, but another deal it is the break, the men almost always get an huge advantage by making ball or multiple balls on the break. Its like they are getting a spot.
I dont think the women are close to the men, not even close, and to say they would be winning 50% of the tourneyments is silly, I mean it is so far from possible its laughable, IMO.
For anyone that doesnt believe it, I tell you that the WOMEN HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO PLAY IN THE DCC, AND THEY HAVENT EVEN THREATENED WINNING IT. THEY MIGHT HAVE CASHED BUT THE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WINNING OR EVEN IN THE FINALS.
While I am not politicially correct, this is not even close.
GO WATCH THEM PLAY. DO YOU EVER SEE THEM STEP UP AND GAMBLE (EVEN, NO SPOT)? Again dont give the one time, tell me when they have played top men pro level repeatably, Lost then when and got more money and went back again to play the same way.
I keep thinking about Louie and Keith and all the stories HEMI told about those guys going down to play Buddy Hall, Buddy giving them a spot and robbing them. Then Keith and Louie go around and get more money and go again to play Buddy Hall, again, again, and again. I never hear of women players doing that.
Ken
I know everyone will state the exception, but another deal it is the break, the men almost always get an huge advantage by making ball or multiple balls on the break. Its like they are getting a spot.
I dont think the women are close to the men, not even close, and to say they would be winning 50% of the tourneyments is silly, I mean it is so far from possible its laughable, IMO.
For anyone that doesnt believe it, I tell you that the WOMEN HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO PLAY IN THE DCC, AND THEY HAVENT EVEN THREATENED WINNING IT. THEY MIGHT HAVE CASHED BUT THE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WINNING OR EVEN IN THE FINALS.
While I am not politicially correct, this is not even close.
GO WATCH THEM PLAY. DO YOU EVER SEE THEM STEP UP AND GAMBLE (EVEN, NO SPOT)? Again dont give the one time, tell me when they have played top men pro level repeatably, Lost then when and got more money and went back again to play the same way.
I keep thinking about Louie and Keith and all the stories HEMI told about those guys going down to play Buddy Hall, Buddy giving them a spot and robbing them. Then Keith and Louie go around and get more money and go again to play Buddy Hall, again, again, and again. I never hear of women players doing that.
Ken
Let's get back to the hypothetical posted above. In that scenario the women would be playing against the men CONSTANTLY in the SAME FORMAT, not occasionally as it is now with the DCC and the Ten Ball event.
On a constant basis unless the women are completely stupid or physically unable then they couldn't do anything BUT get better.
Yes women step up and play even sometimes but really what's in it for them in a world where they aren't allowed to compete with the men?
The old days are gone of players being headhunters like Buddy and Keith and Louie. Do you see Chris Bartrum stepping up WITHOUT a spot? Do you think that Keith McCready at Chris' age would have asked Orcullo for a spot? Hell no, he be firing the who bankroll at him and a young Jennie Malloy would be sweating bullets as Keither went up against a tank.
Clearly the women could get better if they did challenge themselves more in this regard and some do - PRIVATELY - but the fact remains that even if there were a woman who could beat any top player 50% of the time that woman would STILL BE DENIED the ability to compete in all the events open to any person who was born with a penis.
In the US OPEN anyone with $500 who is MALE can play. They don't even have to be able to play pool AT ALL. Any C-player, and wheelchair player, but no women. All women are good for at the US OPEN is to carry around ring cards in a silly attempt to emulate boxing.
As for the break argument, that's weak. There are many women who break as hard as most guys do. There is a video on YouTube of Jasmin Ouschan breaking and making FIVE balls on the break. She regularly makes a ball or two. My ex-wife could outbreak most men in Colorado. Ask any of the master's players there about Jayne Rowley's break. Ever seen Corey Duell ROB a tournament with the soft break? A hard break is more about timing, less about strength.
Of course the hypothetical tournament every weekend with the top ten men and top ten women will never happen but if it did I bet quite a lot that my prediction is closer to what would happen than yours is.
Also at the DCC there are like ten women against HUNDREDS of men who all play fairly good and it's short races. That's hardly a fair example. If you took those same ten women and gave them EXACTLY the same upbringing as the past ten winners of the DCC - same experiences and everything WITHOUT the stigma of being a woman in the pool room then at least 2 or 3 of the last ten winners at DCC would be women.
What is it about the fact that FAR LESS women play pool than men that people don't get? And of those women who do choose to try to play competitively they are not treated like everyone else is no matter how much people think that they are treating the women the same. All women who play pool right now face the inevitable "you play pretty good for a girl" mentality.
You want to see living proof of the FACT that WE - ALL OF US - can't treat women equally?
It's this very discussion. The fact that we discuss and argue and clap harder when a woman plays a man is proof enough that WE ALL still feel that women are INFERIOR to men on some cosmic level that no matter what the circumstances they will never achieve equality.
And the other proof is the absolutely stupid extra bonus for highest finishing woman. If I were a woman in the 10-Ball event I would tell Charlie to keep it.
What is it about the fact that FAR LESS women play pool than men that people don't get? And of those women who do choose to try to play competitively they are not treated like everyone else is no matter how much people think that they are treating the women the same. All women who play pool right now face the inevitable "you play pretty good for a girl" mentality.
You want to see living proof of the FACT that WE - ALL OF US - can't treat women equally?
It's this very discussion. The fact that we discuss and argue and clap harder when a woman plays a man is proof enough that WE ALL still feel that women are INFERIOR to men on some cosmic level that no matter what the circumstances they will never achieve equality.
And the other proof is the absolutely stupid extra bonus for highest finishing woman. If I were a woman in the 10-Ball event I would tell Charlie to keep it.
guys,girls-ladies gents what ever it takes-no one can genetically explain it but it appears that aside from power which doesnt play that big of a part
the ladies seem to lack that extremely high gear-it could be competetion or knowledge but that would mean that all the books and videos(as teaching aids)only teach men things?
99 percent of the men players reached a certain speed on their own and then get knowledge and experience from watching or playing better players-as they move up the food chain things get even tougher for men because when you run out of local action it becomes traveling,outrunning the nuts and hustling-all of which make or break top players-one thing i constantly notice is the safety/kicking game of the girls-weak one rail safeties for the most part and jump cue-let em line up and play an open class roadplayer with out the jump cues-they might start getting better
p.s jl lives with a great player and im sure she wins sets at home for dishes but who do you want in the box for your cash?
the ladies seem to lack that extremely high gear-it could be competetion or knowledge but that would mean that all the books and videos(as teaching aids)only teach men things?
99 percent of the men players reached a certain speed on their own and then get knowledge and experience from watching or playing better players-as they move up the food chain things get even tougher for men because when you run out of local action it becomes traveling,outrunning the nuts and hustling-all of which make or break top players-one thing i constantly notice is the safety/kicking game of the girls-weak one rail safeties for the most part and jump cue-let em line up and play an open class roadplayer with out the jump cues-they might start getting better
p.s jl lives with a great player and im sure she wins sets at home for dishes but who do you want in the box for your cash?
There are simply two reasons why the women AS A GROUP are inferior to the men AS A GROUP. One is that there are 100X more men playing competitively and two is that women still face a CULTURAL bias which makes it tough to be treated as an equal when they are in the poolroom.
You can say to a woman that they should go and match up to get better but that's ridiculous because they can't just "match up" as easily as men can. Sure they can get played if they step up and play everyone even but how many men do you see running around and hunting down tough action "just to get better"? VERY FEW. Three or four years ago Shane Van Boening was STILL ASKING FOR WEIGHT from the top players. Yet if a woman does the same then she's not being fair.
We glorify Chris Bartram, who is a class act, as a super money player but which champion has stepped into the box with even? Would Chris play Allison even? I am sure he would. Should Allison get the same amount of weight that Chris asks for from other players?
The whole point of this is that you can play the hypothetical all day that IF ONLY the women now playing would become headhunters and go out and match up then they would get better, and to a degree that's true but on the other hand what would they be getting better for, nothing but more grief.
Until women are playing in roughly equal numbers AND they are not coddled in the pool rooms and in tournaments they won't get as good on average as the men.
I have no doubt in my mind that Kelly Fisher, Karen Corr, Jasmin, Allison and others could be right now as good as the top men. But they will have to put in a lot more effort than they have to date. They have all the talent, all the skills, and all the killer instinct to get there. What they need is real hard seasoning.
I think in the next ten years you will see a woman snap off a major. It won't be easy because they are not allowed to play in most of them, which will make the accomplishment that much better. Despite having the numbers behind them, despite the unequal treatment, you will see a woman snap off a major.
Because the women are getting better and better. They are learning and they are putting in the time.
The table doesn't know the gender of the player on it.
I just watched Chou, the Amway Women's Champion, beat Karen Corr with a SUPER IMPRESSIVE runout that would have had any player male or female getting the high speed wobbles if they had to shoot the last three shots she did for $20,000.
Don't have a high gear? Maybe not all the way at the top just yet but don't be so quick to bet against them in any given tournament set against any man.
I would love to see the men and women play straight up in the same tournament.
I think that could be a HUGE marketing and TV event.
But they should promote a tournament or two just for this and not force either tour, mens or womens, to open up their events to the other.
Look at the interest that created just from prospect of Shawn playing Allison.
I wish them both luck and hope they both play well.
It will be good for the sport and all of us love it.
I think that could be a HUGE marketing and TV event.
But they should promote a tournament or two just for this and not force either tour, mens or womens, to open up their events to the other.
Look at the interest that created just from prospect of Shawn playing Allison.
I wish them both luck and hope they both play well.
It will be good for the sport and all of us love it.
How much weight can Allison or Karen give Jeanette? The 8? Maybe the called 8? Well Jeanette's hubby George can give her the 6 ball and he doesn't even hardly play pool anymore.... I would have to think George would give Allison the 7 and he doesn't even play anymore. What could Alex, Orcullo, Archer, SVB, etc... give Allison? The freaking world! This debate gets me every single time. In a field like the Predator 10 Ball, US Open, etc... a woman has ZERO chance of winning the tournament. Period...... Oh, and BTW, Karen plays better than Allison.
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It would be a tall order for any person to win a top event, as they would have to beat several top players.
Most people would agree that Shane Van Boening is a better player than Shawn Putnam. So it is a significant achievement for Yu Ram Cha to beat SVB 10-8. Should a future match-up occur between Shawn Putname and Yu Ram Cha, I'd be willing to bet on Cha.
Heck, even Jasmin has a good chance of beating Shawn.The other ladies, Jasmin, Allie and Vivian all beat strong players in this tournament and advanced much further than most people would have imagined possible.
As women get more seasoning and more opportunities to play against men, I think women are quite capable of eventually winning a major tournament like this one.
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