Quality of leather in cases

[Rusty Melton]

Well, I called W&C and I have been paying the same for my 9-10 oz. and the 3-4, but there is a difference in cost if the leather is thicker than 9-10. The price goes up after that. Well, I was wrong and right. I just didn't know where.

Thanks,
Jim

That's the way it is were I buy my leather too. I'm not sure how much higher the thicker is but I know that it's a little more, I usually don't pay that much attention (but maybe I should). Well at least now we know for sure. :thumbup:
Rusty

 

[ronscuba]

With all this talk about leather suppliers, I took a look at the Wickett & Craig website.

This is some nice looking leather !

 

[ronscuba]

A picture of a Jim Murnak case off his website. Hope you don't mind Jim.

Leather like this makes me rethink about wanting a carved design.

 

[JB Cases]

A picture of a Jim Murnak case off his website. Hope you don't mind Jim.

Leather like this makes me rethink about wanting a carved design.

To continue the discussion, what about this picture makes you think that this is "good" leather? Not saying it isn't but the discussion is about how things appear in pictures vs. how they feel in reality.

So as a case maker I am interested in knowing what your first impressions are when viewing this picture. I have also asked this before in another thread.

I used to take pictures of leather for my customers by zooming in and taking a flat picture. Now I generally wrap the leather around a tube and shoot it on the table at an angle to try and give them the same view as if the case were on their table. I find that this shows off the character of the leather better than if I take a flat direct image.

I personally think that it's very hard to shoot leather in a way that conveys the tactile feeling of it. Smell and touch are simply two things that cannot yet be conveyed through the visual medium of the net.

 

[JB Cases]

A picture of a Jim Murnak case off his website. Hope you don't mind Jim.

Leather like this makes me rethink about wanting a carved design.

Maybe a little carving is what you want

 

[ridewiththewind]

I am using a vinyl Lucasi butterfly right now. It's a great case for the money. I've been experimenting putting various cheap sticker/decals on the Lucasi to decide on the carving design I want when I order a leather butterfly from John.

Good idea!! Never would've thought of that!

 

[3kushn]

Its the strap and handle. The way it "Looks" its soft, supple not stiff like a board. It "Looks" like its going to form to the shoulder and hand. The simplicity of it, its lines, and knowing its a well made piece that's asking to be held and used rather than screaming to be noticed.

Just my opinion.

 

[ronscuba]

Something about how the leather looks in the picture appeals to me. It's is kind of hard to describe John. Maybe it is the thickness, the coloring, I don't know exactly. Maybe the straight clean box like lines. This is just me, others might not like how the case and leather looks in the picture.

From a photography standpoint, the Murnak case is photographed at an angle creating depth to the picture. Your picture is front on, no angle, the case lines are not straight and it has a flat appearance. The flash is creating a reflection on the case that makes some portion of the case too bright and other portions too dark.

I said it before, pictures do not tell the whole story. JB cases look better in person. I live in the same city as Jim Murnak. Having seen his cases in person I would also order a case from Jim if he was still making cases.

I want a unique carved case and I am still deciding on the specific design and experimenting with sticker/decals on my vinyl Lucasi case before I place an order. Although I can also appreciate a simple uncarved case that let's the leather be the focus. I want something carved, my wife wants something simple. Maybe 2 cases are in our future.

 

[Rich93]

This thread is so good I don't want it to end. Here's another subtopic.

I'm aware that it's possible to buy leather that's already been dyed at the tannery ("drum dyed"), but I believe that most case makers dye their own to provide more color choices. Somewhere I read that the darker colors are more stable in drum dyed leather - the dye won't come off on your clothes, for example. Is that true? I've never had a problem myself with dye coming off of a case, but I think of this issue whenever I read about the black dye from Diamond pockets staining the balls (and that definitely does happen!). Drum dyed leather might also be more consistent in color than hand dyed.

I still love my JB case and I recommend JB's to anyone who will listen. It's just about perfect in every respect.

 

[JB Cases]

Its the strap and handle. The way it "Looks" its soft, supple not stiff like a board. It "Looks" like its going to form to the shoulder and hand. The simplicity of it, its lines, and knowing its a well made piece that's asking to be held and used rather than screaming to be noticed.

Just my opinion.

I assume you are speaking about the Murnak picture that Ron posted?

So to you the case is asking to be held? And in contrast can you show a picture of one that is screaming to be noticed? This is an interesting way to describe the cases pictured.

So if I were to arrange my images more like the one Ron posted would that influence your opinion?

I mean it's well known in marketing 101 that presentation is half the battle and I am listening to what you are saying.

I have a couple cases with me and I am going to play around with the angles and the backgrounds to see if I can capture the case in a more elegant pose.

 

[JB Cases]

This thread is so good I don't want it to end. Here's another subtopic.

I'm aware that it's possible to buy leather that's already been dyed at the tannery ("drum dyed"), but I believe that most case makers dye their own to provide more color choices. Somewhere I read that the darker colors are more stable in drum dyed leather - the dye won't come off on your clothes, for example. Is that true? I've never had a problem myself with dye coming off of a case, but I think of this issue whenever I read about the black dye from Diamond pockets staining the balls (and that definitely does happen!). Drum dyed leather might also be more consistent in color than hand dyed.

I still love my JB case and I recommend JB's to anyone who will listen. It's just about perfect in every respect.

Almost any leather can be dyed after it's been tanned. There are plenty of people who specialize in providing kits to do this for whatever leather you want to recolor. Typically however the only leather that a leather goods maker will dye at their shop will be veg tanned tooling leather. This is made to accept dye easily and lends itself well to being colored.

The only way to keep any color from rubbing off onto other surfaces is to first allow it to dry completely and then to seal it with a clear sealer. Again there are many websites which detail how to do this. When we do black we put several coats of sealer on it and so far so good.

Also with black in particular there is a technique which uses a mixture made from steel pieces and vinegar that colors the leather a permanent black. It's not a dye it changes the structure and acidity of the leather and the leather must be brought back to a state of balance with baking soda. Saddle and holster makers have used this technique for hundreds of years to get permanent black.

We offer lots of colors for veg tan - these 23 and anything in between:

http://www.jbcases.com/coloroptions.html

On this case we used black nappa which was already black, black lizard print which was already black and veg tan which we dyed black.

Diamond had a particularly thorny problem because the balls would hit the pockets with force and that would rub off any sealer pretty quickly. I spoke with Chad at the SBE and he reported that the solution of vinegaroon I suggested seems to be the one that works. This is what I described above.

 

[Rich93]

......

Diamond had a particularly thorny problem because the balls would hit the pockets with force and that would rub off any sealer pretty quickly. I spoke with Chad at the SBE and he reported that the solution of vinegaroon I suggested seems to be the one that works. This is what I described above.

Damn, John, if you solved that vexing problem for Diamond they should soon be putting a free Pro-Am and RKC on a slow boat to China.

 

[Chopdoc]

I assume you are speaking about the Murnak picture that Ron posted?

So to you the case is asking to be held? And in contrast can you show a picture of one that is screaming to be noticed? This is an interesting way to describe the cases pictured.

So if I were to arrange my images more like the one Ron posted would that influence your opinion?

I mean it's well known in marketing 101 that presentation is half the battle and I am listening to what you are saying.

I have a couple cases with me and I am going to play around with the angles and the backgrounds to see if I can capture the case in a more elegant pose.

Looking at the Murnak, if you can see how the light catches the indentation of the stitches, it makes the leather look soft. You can see that in part of the handle quite nicely.

Also, at the seams where it meets the piping, the way the light catches the leather bending into the seam makes it look soft.

Where the strap is sewn to the shoulder pad, the light catches the indentation of the stitches and the way the leather sort of rolls away from the stitches makes it look soft.

Lastly, the reflections are soft, not very shiny. That gives a softer impression.


In contrast your snapshot looks flat and hard. Where the leather approaches the piping of the seam it looks flat, not like it rolls into the seam. That makes it look stiff.

Also, because of the harshness of the reflection, it looks shiny, which again gives a hard or stiff impression. It looks like it has a hard finish.

Lastly, the hard edges of the tooling only stregthen the hard or stiff impression.

In general tooled leathers look stiffer IMHO anyway. Partly because of the numerous hard edges of the tooling, and partly because of the finish over it. Most people that have casually handled tooled leathers come away with the general impression that they are hard and stiff. After all, they will often see it first in something like a belt or holster, which can be hard as wood as holsters are hardened with wax and belts are...well they are belts.... When they see tooling again, they assume the leather is hard and stiff.

Just my observations. It could be very different for somebody else.

 

[JB Cases]

Damn, John, if you solved that vexing problem for Diamond they should soon be putting a free Pro-Am and RKC on a slow boat to China.

That would be nice but I didn't solve it I only gave them a suggestion as to what might fix it and they are working out the right mixture to use on all the pockets.

 

[blucollar]

I agree with the above post about photo presentation...the case with no carving is shot in a proper manner and makes the leather look beautiful (probably is) and the photo of the JB case lacks appeal (no insult intended Mr. JB as I think ur cases are the best in the world bar none!). If John were to phtograph his cases in this manner I would love to see it. Just my opinion folks.

 

[JB Cases]

I agree with the above post about photo presentation...the case with no carving is shot in a proper manner and makes the leather look beautiful (probably is) and the photo of the JB case lacks appeal (no insult intended Mr. JB as I think ur cases are the best in the world bar none!). If John were to phtograph his cases in this manner I would love to see it. Just my opinion folks.

None taken. I have struggled for a long time on how to present the cases. Frankly I get SUPER PISSED off when I see a case that's presented in a beautiful manner and then the resulting case is not as good as the picture. Same thing applies to any product I buy. So I opted for the straightforward approach trying to capture the details as if one were holding the case in the hands.

But I think I am doing ourselves a disservice by not trying to be a little more artistic in the presentation.

So I probably will try to be a little more artsy with the presentation and set up a little studio environment where I can control the lighting.

Ultimately I do want people to feel that the case they get is much better in person than it looks in the pictures but I don't like feeling like I am at a disadvantage because someone else takes better pictures.

I think I might try to do a video on leather as well to show off our leather inventory and explain the differences.

 

[ShootingArts]

Don't have to be an expert to not be totally ignorant!

John,

You are certainly a liar simply because you are lying when you call me one. I'm not an expert on a lot of things. However I do read the news and whatever catches my interest so I am far from totally ignorant about many things I'm not an expert on. The crappy leather makes news besides the fact I have seen it first hand. The safety issues in the chinese leather tanneries makes news. The safety issues from the chemicals still in the leather makes news. I read the news! Hard for you to grasp?

Likewise, I know what the chinese factory workers were making a year or two ago because it made news here in the US that they were working long hours six or seven days a week supplying components for US carmakers and making between 90 and 95 cents an hour. I think it was 92 cents but I'll admit I'm working from memory. Likewise I know that some workers in the mideast were making even less because somebody claimed that they got a 30% pay raise like it was a big deal. They got a thirty percent pay raise that was considerably less than thirty cents. How do I know these things? IT WAS IN THE NEWS!!

AS I SAID JOHN THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING GENERALLY INFORMED AND BEING AN EXPERT. THERE IS ALSO A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING INFORMED AND GOING THROUGH LIFE WITH YOUR HEAD UP YOUR ASS! THIS WHOLE PISSING CONTEST STARTED BECAUSE YOU WHO SUPPOSEDLY WORK WITH LEATHER EVERY DAY AND HAVE MADE A CAREER OUT OF IT ARE EMBARRASSED BECAUSE YOU HAD NO CLUE HOW THICK A COW HIDE WAS AND MADE A MORONIC STATEMENT WHEN YOU WERE PRETENDING TO BE AN EXPERT!! I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF TO KNOW MUCH AT ALL ABOUT LEATHER BUT IT IS OBVIOUS THAT AS UNINFORMED AS I AM I KNOW THINGS ABOUT IT YOU DON'T AFTER WORKING WITH IT FOR YEARS. THAT DOESN'T MAKE ME A KNOW IT ALL, IT JUST SHOWS YOUR IGNORANCE.

In many areas I consider myself having little knowledge I still have far more knowledge than you do. That isn't saying anything impressive about me, only how willfully ignorant you are! The fact that you are hopelessly uninformed doesn't make those that aren't in as sad of shape know it alls.

Sorry for the delay explaining how foolish you are. I've been a bit busy dealing with flood waters, tornados, and a flea bitten hound I rescued from flood waters. The hound needed shelter from the still falling rain and the stray dog was much more important to me than you are.

Feel free to continue your ranting. While you are at it though how about trying to disprove what I say about the factory workers pay or the issues with leather quality and chemicals? You know, some facts to back up your ranting, some proof that I am lying. I'll be waiting, and waiting, and waiting. You don't have a snowball's chance in hell of backing up your claims I am lying because we both know I am not.

Hu

Gee and earlier you told us twice that you don't know much about leather. Suddenly you are an expert on tanning in China. So mr expert how long should it take for my cases to fall apart? I think you can embarrass yourself all day trying to find a customer of mine whose case is falling apart.



Are you suffering from dementia? I have no other explanation for the outright lies you are making up. The secret to my success is delivering a case that the customer feels is a great investment. Reverse engineering? Dude these are cue cases not computers. I think that my record of innovation is clear baby Huey.

I think you are a liar. I don't think you have done a tenth of what you claim to have done. But no one here knows the difference do they? On here you can be whoever you want to be.



Well sure. If you are a liar then there is no end to what you can lie about.

 

[bullshooter69]

I almost never comment on subjects on AZ anymore because of what this thread has turned into. Instead of answering a question or providing positive feedback. This thread has been turned into self promotion and personal issues,

 

[ronscuba]

Second request. Please stay on topic. We were doing good with 30 continuous on topic posts. Please do not respond to off topic subjects or personal stuff.

 

[Chopdoc]

:thumbup:

Second request. Please stay on topic. We were doing good with 30 continuous on topic posts. Please do not respond to off topic subjects or personal stuff.

:thumbup: Thank you.



So. Clearly there is no meaningful system of rating quality of leathers.

In the end it is the perception of the buyer that matters. Everybody has different expectations of leather and that is what must be satisfied. If you rely on somebody else to tell you then you are actually relying on their preference and not a quantitative analysis or rating of some sort.

So I guess the question becomes: What do you expect from leather?