Question about full rack rotation and story about a p**ck :P

Tommy-D

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
Last night I went to the pool room for a small 8-ball tournament,not unheard of for me. However,a couple of things pool-related came up in addition to this.

There is an older guy that hangs in there that personality-wise reminds me of Squidward off Spongebob,practically everything that comes out of his mouth is negativity and at least to me unwelcome bullshit.

He's talking to some other guy about this game they used to play in tournaments at some hillbilly poolroom somewhere where it's full rack rotation,with 4 players,and that whoever made the 1 and the 9 were partners or something to that effect.

I asked him in as polite a manner as possible "ok,what happens if the player that breaks makes a ball and runs out?"

His answer did something I usually don't let happen to me,which was let people that aren't part of my circle affect my mood.

"well I don't know,it never happened that I saw,and these guys were WAY better than you" THEN he's got the gall to stand there in public and tell me that he'll give me the rest of my life to even do it ONCE.

Of course,I tell him if I couldn't do that once in a week I'd want to shoot myself. I add that single racks of rotation may be an awesome thing to watch for someone that can't play a lick like him,and the fact that I've seen Efren's standard warm-up over a dozen times in person over 20 years. I've also seen the 14-ball GHOST with ball in hand dominated.

Then he really comes close to causing a problem by saying "well I've never seen it and I don't think you have either",basically calling me a liar.

I got fairly heated about this and ask him point blank if he was indeed calling me a liar,and the other guy gets involved and starts talking about breaking a 15 ball rack and just running out in any order.

My response was that I think I'd run out all day long like that,and I ask him if he wants to bet 20 a rack to find out,and ask if we're talking about starting from cue ball position after the break or of ball in hand on the first shot is allowed. He didn't think I was serious about my offer,and declined.

The first guy keeps on talking shit,so I call him a c***sucker to his face and he shut up.

I made my point further by once again proving who the apex predator in this jungle is by winning the tournament,just as expected. Out of my 5 single-rack matches,I broke and ran out 3 times,and never allowed my opponent a 2nd offensive inning.

Sorry about the backdrop,but here is the question. With the best players in the world,what do you think are THEIR percentage would be? Tommy D.
 
I used to play this quite a bit as a kid...when playing an opponent, it stays defense for the most part until you get down to 10 or so balls. Someone on here claimed to have seen Earl Strickland run three racks of rotation in a practice session; that said, I'd still estimate a top tier player would be 10-20 percent to run out if in dead stroke, maybe higher if playing the ghost with ball in hand--but probably not. There's a LOT of traffic to negotiate with 15 balls!

If you're calling 61 points a run (insurmountable total of face values on balls sunk, which is a win in rotation, as opposed to all 15 balls) then that's another story. Then the average might be as high as 40% playing the ghost/ball in hand.

I know the Filipinos play a lot of rotation, maybe Efren and Busty have a higher probability...never seen them play that, so can't say for sure. I think I smell a TAR match!!!!:thumbup:
 
With no ball-in-hand I would bet even the best players would be lucky to run out once in an hour of play. All of the following issues come into play:

1. Making a ball on the break - relatively easy

2. Having a shot on the 1 ball - still fairly common, but keep in mind most breaks are pretty hard and there are 14 other balls traveling that will affect the cueball and the one

3. Being able to get position on the 2 ball - this is where the tide turns (yes this early in the game). As mentioned above, there are so many other balls on the table that the first shot has to provide a path to the second with neither of these balls being tied up to begin with.

4. Assuming two balls fell on the break and now the 1 ball is also down, twelve balls still remain. The player is less favorite from here to run out than he would be playing the twelve ball ghost. On a table that doesn't play loose, there are not that many players who are favorite over the 12-ball ghost.

5. With twelve balls still on the table, there may be other balls tied up making for more cueball movement to break them up which is further complicated because of the other balls that may block the path to break up these clusters.


These are the main problems I see. I would be glad to bet anyone here $100 each hour they want to attempt it.
 
Rotation being my absolute favorite pocket game I have played quite a bit of it...

I'm no A level player but I've ran quite a few full racks from the break in my day.... there is a bit of luck involved not getting locked up in early game but it certainly isn't impossible.
 
Iba7467 nailed it.

I like to practice full rack rotation sometimes. Actually, for my play-practice, I like to do a few variations:

- Throw 6 balls out and take BIH and run out, but run out "perfectly" so to speak. No overly difficult shots (subjective by player, but you know...), no banks unless playing for one purposely, etc. It's harder than you think - I play pretty well, and it's tough to keep the concentration up to do it 15 out of 20, once you overrun your position and have to shoot a 60 or 70 degree thin cut up the rail, or you are 8 feet away from the ball, even though you could make those shots your turn is over. I also put the ball back when I miss position or the ball and figure out what I did wrong and correct it

- Normal 9-ball/10-ball practice, either throwing the balls out or playing ghost format with breaking etc.

- Full rotation practice. It's pretty damn tough if breaking, even with ball in hand you have to navigate those first 4 - 5 balls among all of the traffic and then concentrate enough to finish out a 9 or 10 ball rack.


I believe I've heard/seen Efren run out from the break, I think he did it 3 times in a row during some practice session that was witnessed. But many times when people say they "ran" x number of racks of rotation they are talking about getting to 61 points, not necessarily running out the entire rack. Not nearly as impossible as your "friend" made it sound though...


Also, that guy may have been talking about the rotation game Chicago. Full rack of 15 balls, 4 people play and draw for breaking order. Money balls are 1, 5, 8, 10, 13, and 15. Breaker breaks and play rotates, when the 1 and 5 are made those 2 players are partners for the rest of the game. I think the way we played there were no safeties until partners were decided, then you could play safe. If the same player makes the 1 and 5, and the 1 and 8 are partners, and so on. If one guy made all the money balls, then he got paid from the other three players. We played $1 on the money balls plus $2 for the game, so 8 "ways" up for grabs each game. If a team or person took all the ways then the value doubled. Fun game, and at $1 a way it's pretty friendly, and since the partners and breaking order constantly changes and people can rotate in and out of the game for hours it's interesting.

Scott
 
I like 15 Ball ROTATION too... great game. I have read a few articles about the Pinoys playing this game a lot. I think it is good practice.

I like the POINTS win over ONE particular ball win.

I enjoyed watching the Van Boeing 9-Ball match where the win was balls pocketed.
 
Tommy-D said:
Last night I went to the pool room for a small 8-ball tournament,not unheard of for me. However,a couple of things pool-related came up in addition to this.

There is an older guy that hangs in there that personality-wise reminds me of Squidward off Spongebob,practically everything that comes out of his mouth is negativity and at least to me unwelcome bullshit.

He's talking to some other guy about this game they used to play in tournaments at some hillbilly poolroom somewhere where it's full rack rotation,with 4 players,and that whoever made the 1 and the 9 were partners or something to that effect.

I asked him in as polite a manner as possible "ok,what happens if the player that breaks makes a ball and runs out?"

His answer did something I usually don't let happen to me,which was let people that aren't part of my circle affect my mood.

"well I don't know,it never happened that I saw,and these guys were WAY better than you" THEN he's got the gall to stand there in public and tell me that he'll give me the rest of my life to even do it ONCE.

Of course,I tell him if I couldn't do that once in a week I'd want to shoot myself. I add that single racks of rotation may be an awesome thing to watch for someone that can't play a lick like him,and the fact that I've seen Efren's standard warm-up over a dozen times in person over 20 years. I've also seen the 14-ball GHOST with ball in hand dominated.

Then he really comes close to causing a problem by saying "well I've never seen it and I don't think you have either",basically calling me a liar.

I got fairly heated about this and ask him point blank if he was indeed calling me a liar,and the other guy gets involved and starts talking about breaking a 15 ball rack and just running out in any order.

My response was that I think I'd run out all day long like that,and I ask him if he wants to bet 20 a rack to find out,and ask if we're talking about starting from cue ball position after the break or of ball in hand on the first shot is allowed. He didn't think I was serious about my offer,and declined.

The first guy keeps on talking shit,so I call him a c***sucker to his face and he shut up.

I made my point further by once again proving who the apex predator in this jungle is by winning the tournament,just as expected. Out of my 5 single-rack matches,I broke and ran out 3 times,and never allowed my opponent a 2nd offensive inning.

Sorry about the backdrop,but here is the question. With the best players in the world,what do you think are THEIR percentage would be? Tommy D.
Click to expand...
We used to play a lot of 1-9 partners and if you ran out everybody paid you. With good players is is not as rare as you may think. If you make 2 or 3 balls or more on the break and get a shot at the 1 ball in two shots all that left is a 9-ball rack. You need some luck but it is far from some astronomical impossibility we have all done it. Heck, how many guys run out 15 into one pocket; to a weak player that would sound imposable.
 
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Tommy-D said:
His answer did something I usually don't let happen to me,which was let people that aren't part of my circle affect my mood.
Click to expand...

Tommy

Love this post. What I'm working on similar proposition which is:

Let nobody outside of me effect my mood.

Thanks again

Kevin
 
We rack one in front, two in the middle and three at the back center. It is tough to run a rack as the two is difficult to move. Have to use a really hard break and thus surrender control of the cue ball. No telling where the three will land.

Rather than play Chicago we play one point a ball. A game is 50 points. The only penalty for a foul or a scratch is ball in hand for the opponet. Player has to call ball and pocket. It is pretty much a defensive game for the first 5- 7 balls and I have only seen one of us run a rack from the break. A run of 13 - 14 is not uncommon, perhaps every hour or so of play.
 
Tommy-D said:
Last night I went to the pool room for a small 8-ball tournament,not unheard of for me. However,a couple of things pool-related came up in addition to this.

There is an older guy that hangs in there that personality-wise reminds me of Squidward off Spongebob,practically everything that comes out of his mouth is negativity and at least to me unwelcome bullshit.

He's talking to some other guy about this game they used to play in tournaments at some hillbilly poolroom somewhere where it's full rack rotation,with 4 players,and that whoever made the 1 and the 9 were partners or something to that effect.

I asked him in as polite a manner as possible "ok,what happens if the player that breaks makes a ball and runs out?"

His answer did something I usually don't let happen to me,which was let people that aren't part of my circle affect my mood.

"well I don't know,it never happened that I saw,and these guys were WAY better than you" THEN he's got the gall to stand there in public and tell me that he'll give me the rest of my life to even do it ONCE.

Of course,I tell him if I couldn't do that once in a week I'd want to shoot myself. I add that single racks of rotation may be an awesome thing to watch for someone that can't play a lick like him,and the fact that I've seen Efren's standard warm-up over a dozen times in person over 20 years. I've also seen the 14-ball GHOST with ball in hand dominated.

Then he really comes close to causing a problem by saying "well I've never seen it and I don't think you have either",basically calling me a liar.

I got fairly heated about this and ask him point blank if he was indeed calling me a liar,and the other guy gets involved and starts talking about breaking a 15 ball rack and just running out in any order.

My response was that I think I'd run out all day long like that,and I ask him if he wants to bet 20 a rack to find out,and ask if we're talking about starting from cue ball position after the break or of ball in hand on the first shot is allowed. He didn't think I was serious about my offer,and declined.

The first guy keeps on talking shit,so I call him a c***sucker to his face and he shut up.

I made my point further by once again proving who the apex predator in this jungle is by winning the tournament,just as expected. Out of my 5 single-rack matches,I broke and ran out 3 times,and never allowed my opponent a 2nd offensive inning.

Sorry about the backdrop,but here is the question. With the best players in the world,what do you think are THEIR percentage would be? Tommy D.
Click to expand...

I'm curious where you are from.
 
Full rack rotation is a great game,me an my friends play it alot..ring game style..no ball in hand.one of my buddys grew up on this game,an to watch him an a couple of his friends play,you would think their lucky or sloppy..neighter one of them had ever played nine ball or ten ball..now its all they want to play,should have never explained that game to them.
You all have a nice weekend.
 
I'm not saying I wasn't wrong about getting involved in a pissing contest with this guy,but I ask a polite,simple question and thanks to him it went downhill.

I probably didn't handle it properly,and have no problem being told so,all good.

Anyone that has ever been around when Efren comes in to warm up for a tournament knows that his routine is to throw out all 15,take ball in hand and run out till he's done 3 FULL racks in a row,doesn't matter if he does it in 1st try or it takes 2 hours. I've seen him do it 5 times for sure on his 1st try.

What bothered me most is him accusing me of lying about having watched Efren run 45 a dozen times,as if I've never been around him or any other top player.

I'm a student,it makes sense to go watch the consensus best player of all time,as well as his peers.

The partner's rotation game he originally spoke of was down around Reelfoot Lake in West Tn.

I value your input,Tommy D.
 
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