Question about intentional swerve

[Chrippa]

Dave,
Perhaps after work I will experiment, but didn't find any advantage to hitting at 8:00 or 10:00. I was just trying to "rub" along the 9:00 line but who knows what was really happening for I didn't have a camera on me to see what was happening durint that millisecond contact.

Although I shoot with a Z2 shaft, and any deflection would have been to the right of center to my initial stroke line, but I was consistently hitting the center diamond from what I could see.

I was hoping that you would have studied that outlier result of 11 and explain and recreate it consistently so we all could use that information.

I will attach this to my original description of what I did and achieved.

View attachment 376588


Be well.

Thanks for the pic, I´m having a full poolday tomorrow and I will set it up like that too. I do think you are right though since I use it in a similar way now and then.
I´m quite certain also that there is some vids from Dave that shows it very clearly, I think it is when 3 players are checking deflection or similar, you can see it very clearly imo, - at least that was how I recall it. One of them used BHE and "swoop" and the outgoing angle from the cushion was steeper. If I recall it right - to find it along all the vids though - Dave, please help out here !

Regards

Chrippa

 

[dr_dave]

I find it better to shoot across table when I do these tests. Because of the closer proximity, I can see for sure where the CB hits, and I don't have to account as much for spin that gets scrubbed off on the long path to the end rail.

Excellent suggestion. And it helps to have obstacle balls, a camera, and/or a friend verifying accurate hits on the first rail.

Regards,
Dave

 

[LAMas]

Hi E,

I was going to say this earlier but I was not exactly sure of your set up as I read it.

I've gotten similar results as your '47*' shot. I've shot down close & parallel to the long rail & have gotten the CB to hit between the 3rd. diamond & the side pocket. I think that is a similar angle outcome.

I've also shot into the short rail on a rather large angle & had the ball come back way past from where I was shooting.

With my cue coming off my bridge hand as it does, I doubt that I am hitting in any downward motion or below the equator but...as Chrippa mentioned, I might be hitting slightly below the equator with the tip coming up & out during that millisecond of contact time. But like you, I'm not sure.

You Be Well & Everyone Else Too,
Rick

Rick,

For me and perhaps you, what is important is the utility of swiping or "rubbing" and how it can be used on longer shots to throw the OB or get shape. I enjoyed the vid on "Cannon" but I don't play safeties on myself when practicing - perhaps I should.

So many times I look at a thread and not post in anticipation of the futility....

Thanks for sharing and your persistence.

Be well.

 

[dr_dave]

I´m quite certain also that there is some vids from Dave that shows it very clearly, I think it is when 3 players are checking deflection or similar, you can see it very clearly imo, - at least that was how I recall it. One of them used BHE and "swoop" and the outgoing angle from the cushion was steeper.

In that video, each person was doing something different (different contact point, different aim, different speed, swoop or not). The point of the video wasn't to compare different strokes ... it was to compare different tips. What was important in that experiment was for each person to do the same thing fairly consistently from shot to shot with each of the tips. If the message you took from that video is that a swoop stroke imparts more spin, then you took the wrong message (and I did a terrible job with the presentation). FYI, here's the video in question:

NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[Chrippa]

In that video, each person was doing something different (different contact point, different aim, different speed, swoop or not). The point of the video wasn't to compare different strokes ... it was to compare different tips. What was important in that experiment was for each person to do the same thing fairly consistently from shot to shot with each of the tips. If the message you took from that video is that a swoop stroke imparts more spin, then you took the wrong message (and I did a terrible job with the presentation). FYI, here's the video in question:

NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)

Catch you later,
Dave

I get you. I still think you can learn a great deal from that imo. Look at the result. You are pivoting very much before the shot to manage the deflection and swerve and he is not but do gets greater spin with good accuracy, that´s how I see it anyway.
I would pick the method that simplifies it and makes some of the results of deflection and swerve already calculated to minimise the work put in, would´t you?

Regards

Christian

 

[Chrippa]

In that video, each person was doing something different (different contact point, different aim, different speed, swoop or not). The point of the video wasn't to compare different strokes ... it was to compare different tips. What was important in that experiment was for each person to do the same thing fairly consistently from shot to shot with each of the tips. If the message you took from that video is that a swoop stroke imparts more spin, then you took the wrong message (and I did a terrible job with the presentation). FYI, here's the video in question:

NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)

Catch you later,
Dave

Btw, do read my previous post about mass etc, contact points can be the same but by shifting the mass behind it produces different results, please do look at the big picture. More to be said but for now I will eagerly wait for some respons on my post from forum members. To discuss is very fun imo, right or wrong - going forward anyway.

Cheers

Christian

 

[dr_dave]

I get you. I still think you can learn a great deal from that imo. Look at the result. You are pivoting very much before the shot to manage the deflection and swerve and he is not but do gets greater spin with good accuracy, that´s how I see it anyway.
I would pick the method that simplifies it and makes some of the results of deflection and swerve already calculated to minimise the work put in, would´t you?

Again, the swooper in that video was hitting with a different aim, a different effective tip offset, and a different speed. If I had used a greater tip offset and slower speed, I could easily get more rebound angle change off the cushion than the swooper, and do so more accurately and more consistently. To me, accuracy and consistency is what is important.

Again, you took the wrong message from that video.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Chrippa]

Again, the swooper in that video was hitting with a different aim, a different effective tip offset, and a different speed. If I had used a greater tip offset and slower speed, I could easily get more rebound angle change off the cushion than the swooper, and do so more accurately and more consistently. To me, accuracy and consistency is what is important.

Again, you took the wrong message from that video.

Regards,
Dave

I see what I see and I get the message the way I interpret it. I feel however that you seem to want to set your exact points that fits your expectations of the outcome to fit your satisfaction. The world is not a square box to me but I do see that many of us feel the need to have control and know exactly what is happening.

A little challenge for you, draw a picture with a ball and a cube with the same mass, the ball in the cube. What does it look like? I know without knowing right now how to calculate it, but I know - magic - don't think so

I see the CB and puts whatever desired spin, affect like a ball within the balls. 3 of them I would say - cross the lines, cross one, cross 2 etc.

Regards

Chrippa

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Excellent suggestion. And it helps to have obstacle balls, a camera, and/or a friend verifying accurate hits on the first rail.

Regards,
Dave

Hard to use object balls when testing for spin because you'll hit them when the CB comes off the rail. I like the camera idea, though. I don't have any friends, so that option is out for me.

 

[dr_dave]

Hard to use object balls when testing for spin because you'll hit them when the CB comes off the rail. I like the camera idea, though. I don't have any friends, so that option is out for me.

If you space the obstacle balls on the cushion like I did in the swoop test video, they can still help prevent a large range of "cheating."

You need to work on that friends thing. Sorry, by I don't have a video for that. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,

For me and perhaps you, what is important is the utility of swiping or "rubbing" and how it can be used on longer shots to throw the OB or get shape. I enjoyed the vid on "Cannon" but I don't play safeties on myself when practicing - perhaps I should.

So many times I look at a thread and not post in anticipation of the futility....

Thanks for sharing and your persistence.

Be well.

I agree on the importance & utility.

I too don't play 'safeties' on myself but I do shoot 2 way shots & think about what if I mis & I do alter shot selection as a means of a 2 way if I should mis.

I perhaps should follow your thinking regarding threads & posts & have actually started to do so a bit. But to me, that stifles discussion & potential learning. When I suggested that perhaps I should do as you sometimes do, two rather prominent members have encouraged me to not do that but to keep posting instead.

You might enjoy a link a clinic by Johnny Archer provided by Mizra in his weight distribution thread & also my post in it.

Stay Well & Thanks,
Rick

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

If you space the obstacle balls on the cushion like I did in the swoop test video, they can still help prevent a large range of "cheating."

You need to work on that friends thing. Sorry, by I don't have a video for that. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

Ah, very clever placing the balls like that! Plus, you got me to actually look at the video.

Personally, I have no problem seeing if I hit the diamond right, but I do stand a bit higher than you do, so I have a real good vantage point. If I don't split the CB down the middle with the point of the diamond I consider the stroke a failure for these purposes.

I shoot across the table for those straight-stroke drills as well. If I can get the ball to come back and hit the tip dead center, why would I want to shoot the whole length of the table? Makes everything faster and easier for me.

Now... are you SURE you can't make a video like, "Dr. Dave's How to Win Friends and Influence People"? At my age I appear to have pissed off just about everybody in the world. Sure could use a fresh start.

 

[LAMas]

I´m getting a bit curious and thoughtful....

What is the purpose of your tries when you have set positions for the cue, tip, angle etc that I don´t see the swoope players use when swiping?

My understanding of the swoope I get from trying it myself (newbie at what I call it, - "fluid swiping"), playing soccer, golf and a lot of ball sports. To put draw, fade etc in soccer or golf you come from one side and finish on the opposite side.
Also, spinning a Tombola, prayer scrolls etc.

With the diagrams posted you come in parallell with side and then go further to the side, that´s not what I see when SVB, Efren etc are doing it. They are "crossing lines" imo to get the maximum effect with a minimum effort and also counter the deflection (BHE) in the same time.

I think Buddy Hall calls it "Tuc´n Roll", and if I recall exact he refers it in one of his DVD´s to "you have to do that to put spin on the ball". I don´t agree that´s the only way but I get what and why he says it imo.

There are a lot of schooled people here and even if I´m not in that trade myself I do know that if I put my body behind a uppercut it will punch harder and have a different outcome.

If you do want to find out why there obviously is players of "fantastic caliber" that sweeps the ball I suggest you try to copy them as good as you can.

Doing that you can´t just see were the tip contacts the CB, and also not just look by the angle "upfront" you need to look at the big picture, were is the butt compared to the tip, the mass - cue and body imo.

To see what I see you can set up a straight in shot, centerball hit and when you are in your normal position just lean to the right or left with the hole body, just tilt it a bit and look at the result. I can "cheat the pocket" like that - don´t say I use that technique but it´s a fun try that at least shows me things. Lean to the right - push to the left and vice versa.

If you look at your diagram in reverse I see the same thing (of course), it´s less mass that hits the cue.

Since I haven´t mastered the "swoop" yet ( in every direction) I look forward to see more and hopefully share the feelings I get - that is if anyone is interested.

I for one would love to do a topspin as easy as SVB does it with sweeping.

However, I can juice the ball very good with a different technique than him but I feel and see that he is sliiiiiiightly better pool player than I am and I guess there is a reason for him to pick it up later in his career - he probably thinks it´s better.....

One technique in playing style that I really like is CJ´s, it´s a very strong and competitive style and I use it "all" the time but I choose to try everything out to find out for myself and pick the apples that suits my personality/game. Doing so means that I experiment a lot with different techniques and of course I gratefully miss a lot, why gratefully - well that´s how we learn. I learn very fast though and enjoy the curve so with some help from forum members I´m sure I will master the sweeping soon enough.

I know there are some really good sweepers out there, can you please share your thoughts so we all can learn from it.

CJ, I know you flick your wrist (same here nowadays...) in a very small motion, not as big and at lest to me not in the same way as Efren etc but can you please share your thoughts on it?

I´m here to learn so please comment, in whatever form or shape.

Regards

Christian

This was IMO of course:wink:

Forgot, I just want to add something, I don´t necessarily think that the fluid motion for every angle is needed or makes that great effect but to cross the lines do imo. I´m thinking in the line of that the fluid sweeping is a result of, - when you know how to do it flows sort of... you just see the spot and hit it. We can achieve such great things, there is no hard or diffucult ways for them who has mastered them. I thought it was really hard to hit a stopshot when I first began to play, not so any more. Just a matter of training. I began learning TOI in a very "robotic" way, nowadays I go down with TOI, to explain it however I can show it step by step. - Thanks CJ!

Christian,
Welcome.
You said a mouthful about what you do and have accomplished. If you have questions, try presenting a couple at a time. That makes it easier for posters to reply.

Thanks,
Be well.

 

[LAMas]

It was suggested that I recreate Dr. Dave's set up going from the long rail to the far long rail 3rd diamond from the right to the other third diamond on the right.

I was able to replicate similar results getting to the 35 degrees or the second diamond from the left on the long rail closest to me. This is shown on the bottom of the pic below.

I tried 8:00 and 10:00 with no change for me.

I then used an open bridge with a very shallow "V" so that the shaft could move sideways after contacting the CB. Again I started with the tip at 9:00 and 1/4 CB.
Without using any BHE, I stroked straight into that spot until contact and the let the tip "rub" the side of the CB which caused the shaft to slide to the left and off of my shallow "V" bridge. The tip of the cue was about at the same level, never touching the cloth or pointing up in the air.

I increased the angle greater than the 35 with the CB heading toward the first diamond on the left around 40 degrees. Not as good as shooting from the spot in my first experiment. Bridging closer to the rail might have something to do with it.

Anyway that just me.



Be well.

 

[LAMas]

Hi E,

I was going to say this earlier but I was not exactly sure of your set up as I read it.

I've gotten similar results as your '47*' shot. I've shot down close & parallel to the long rail & have gotten the CB to hit between the 3rd. diamond & the side pocket. I think that is a similar angle outcome.

I've also shot into the short rail on a rather large angle & had the ball come back way past from where I was shooting.

With my cue coming off my bridge hand as it does, I doubt that I am hitting in any downward motion or below the equator but...as Chrippa mentioned, I might be hitting slightly below the equator with the tip coming up & out during that millisecond of contact time. But like you, I'm not sure.

You Be Well & Everyone Else Too,
Rick

Rick,
With all of the practice I have now with swiping/rubbing the CB, I thought that I would see what it could do for me.

I set up and OB 4 inches outside of the upper right corner pocket and set the CB at the same location at the other right corner pocket closest to me and swiped the CB on the left side. After the OB dripped into the pocket, the CB hit the top short rail then the left first diamond and traveled diagonally into the corner pocket where it started....spin?

Just having fun.

Be well.

 

[Mikjary]

It was suggested that I recreate Dr. Dave's set up going from the long rail to the far long rail 3rd diamond from the right to the other third diamond on the right.

I was able to replicate similar results getting to the 35 degrees or the second diamond from the left on the long rail closest to me. This is shown on the bottom of the pic below.

I tried 8:00 and 10:00 with no change for me.

I then used an open bridge with a very shallow "V" so that the shaft could move sideways after contacting the CB. Again I started with the tip at 9:00 and 1/4 CB.
Without using any BHE, I stroked straight into that spot until contact and the let the tip "rub" the side of the CB which caused the shaft to slide to the left and off of my shallow "V" bridge. The tip of the cue was about at the same level, never touching the cloth or pointing up in the air.

I increased the angle greater than the 35 with the CB heading toward the first diamond on the left around 40 degrees. Not as good as shooting from the spot in my first experiment. Bridging closer to the rail might have something to do with it.

Anyway that just me.

View attachment 376651

Be well.

Have you tried crossing over the center of the cue ball? Starting, for instance, on the right side and swiping to get left spin?

Best,
Mike

 

[LAMas]

Have you tried crossing over the center of the cue ball? Starting, for instance, on the right side and swiping to get left spin?

Best,
Mike

Mike,
I thought about that but I thought that I might contact the right side before getting the tip to the left side of the CB.

Do you propose that I use BHE and pivot from my bridge or just slide my bridge from right to left before contact?

Be well.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,
With all of the practice I have now with swiping/rubbing the CB, I thought that I would see what it could do for me.

I set up and OB 4 inches outside of the upper right corner pocket and set the CB at the same location at the other right corner pocket closest to me and swiped the CB on the left side. After the OB dripped into the pocket, the CB hit the top short rail then the left first diamond and traveled diagonally into the corner pocket where it started....spin?

Just having fun.

Be well.

E,

That was a terrible shot.

You should have known it was a scratch shot & spun it a tad more.:wink:

Stay Well,
Rick

 

[The Renfro]

Mike,
I thought about that but I thought that I might contact the right side before getting the tip to the left side of the CB.

Do you propose that I use BHE and pivot from my bridge or just slide my bridge from right to left before contact?

Be well.

Soft or super soft will extend the contact at slow speeds past 2ms and you will be able to torque the cueball crossing over... You think Efren plays a pressed elk because he can't afford a layered tip?

 

[Chrippa]

Christian,
Welcome.
You said a mouthful about what you do and have accomplished. If you have questions, try presenting a couple at a time. That makes it easier for posters to reply.

Thanks,
Be well.

Thanks,

I guess I had something I wanted to say:embarrassed2:. When the ball starts to roll...

Chrippa