Question about intentional swerve
- Thread starter bdorman
- Start date
After work I went t practice some pool.
I thought about swipe and Dr. Dave's vid.
I and a friend a few years ago shot the CB on the spot to the center diamond on the far rail and applied English to see how much spin we could get. We both were able to send the CB into the side pocket consistently. We aimed the CB parallel to the line from the spot to the diamond on the left side of the CB.
I set up the same shot and started with a parallel stroke at about 1/4 ball left English and stroked it parallel. I ventured bit by bit to the outside of the 1/4 until I miscued. I was able to hit the third diamond above/before the side pocket with both a closed and open bridge.
I the tried my interpretation of swipe by starting at the 1/4 ball left side with an open bridge, but when I contacted the CB, I used the weight of the cue to follow the CB through the stroke. I dropped my bridge out of the way. The tip of the cue went to the side and into the air. I had a slight pressure against the CB with my grip hand alone - like shooting one handed.
I was able to hit the second diamond above/before the side pocket or around a 10 to 15 degree improvement. This is how I apply extra English to throw the OB an spin the CB when I need to.
This is just me on this table with old rubber and new cloth, but is it "swipe"?
Be well
Edit----------------------
The 35 degree angle at the bottom is my iterpretation (because the diamonds were covered) of Dr. Dave's experiment
I thought about swipe and Dr. Dave's vid.
I and a friend a few years ago shot the CB on the spot to the center diamond on the far rail and applied English to see how much spin we could get. We both were able to send the CB into the side pocket consistently. We aimed the CB parallel to the line from the spot to the diamond on the left side of the CB.
I set up the same shot and started with a parallel stroke at about 1/4 ball left English and stroked it parallel. I ventured bit by bit to the outside of the 1/4 until I miscued. I was able to hit the third diamond above/before the side pocket with both a closed and open bridge.
I the tried my interpretation of swipe by starting at the 1/4 ball left side with an open bridge, but when I contacted the CB, I used the weight of the cue to follow the CB through the stroke. I dropped my bridge out of the way. The tip of the cue went to the side and into the air. I had a slight pressure against the CB with my grip hand alone - like shooting one handed.
I was able to hit the second diamond above/before the side pocket or around a 10 to 15 degree improvement. This is how I apply extra English to throw the OB an spin the CB when I need to.
This is just me on this table with old rubber and new cloth, but is it "swipe"?
Be well
Edit----------------------
The 35 degree angle at the bottom is my iterpretation (because the diamonds were covered) of Dr. Dave's experiment
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Thanks, but I can't take the credit for that. Rick (ENGLISH!), suggested that before the experiment got under way, I think. I'd have to go back and check, but it was his idea, first.
Best,
Mike
It's an interesting possibility and one that Mythbusters might be interested in doing a show about. At the very least, the AZB tribe can figure it out and put it to rest or run with it. Stuff like this keeps the juices flowing and puts fun back in the game.
Best,
Mike
This will help clear up some confusion.
pros·e·ly·tize
(prŏs′ə-lĭ-tīz′)
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v.intr.
1. To attempt to convert someone to one's own religious faith.
2. To attempt to persuade someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
3. To attempt to correct pros on AZB by B players.
v.tr.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
Best,
Mike
pros·e·ly·tize (prŏs′ə-lĭ-tīz′) v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·t
too funny!!!
This will help clear up some confusion.
pros·e·ly·tize
(prŏs′ə-lĭ-tīz′)
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v.intr.
1. To attempt to convert someone to one's own religious faith.
2. To attempt to persuade someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
3. To attempt to correct pros on AZB by B players.
v.tr.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
Best,
Mike
too funny!!!
I agree with CJ
That is funnier then anything I've heard or read in the last month. And I learned a "new" word today, shoot I have to go find it. Lol, I'm just kidding....
This will help clear up some confusion.
pros·e·ly·tize
(prŏs′ə-lĭ-tīz′)
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v.intr.
1. To attempt to convert someone to one's own religious faith.
2. To attempt to persuade someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
3. To attempt to correct pros on AZB by B players.
v.tr.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
Best,
Mike
That is funnier then anything I've heard or read in the last month. And I learned a "new" word today, shoot I have to go find it. Lol, I'm just kidding....
Ron Swanson
Banned
That's how I do it too, with the one hand on the cue. It's so the cue can 'slide' laterally. If the cue stays on or in the bridge hand that lateral movement is limited unless the whole bridge hand moves laterally. As I've said more than a couple of times now, it takes timing.
You Be & Stay Well Too & Everyone Else Too,
Rick
This will help clear up some confusion.
pros·e·ly·tize
(prŏs′ə-lĭ-tīz′)
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v.intr.
1. To attempt to convert someone to one's own religious faith.
2. To attempt to persuade someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
3. To attempt to correct pros on AZB by B players.
v.tr.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
Best,
Mike
Here's a word for you to ponder: This forum has way too many that practice sciolism. And, the worse part, is that in their ignorance, they wear it like a badge of honor and mock those that do have knowledge.
Only place I have ever seen that mocks knowledge and lauds ignorance.
CJ,
I'm not sure who you mean by "we," but I'll assume you mean people who think a swoop stroke can do something to the CB that a straight stroke can't. Regardless, it doesn't really matter who "we" are anyway.
I agree with you that if one is getting a different result, then one is doing something differently, causing the CB to be hit in a different way (e.g., below center, at a different angle, with a different effective tip offset, etc.). But again, these differences can also be created with an equivalent straight stroke at an appropriate aim, tip contact point, and cue elevation. And for many (if not most) people, a straight stroke will be more accurate and consistent than a swoop/swipe stroke.
Regards,
Dave
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LAMas,
It is easy to create swoop/swipe results like this, but there are logical explanations. For example, when Dave Gross was hitting swoop strokes in my first set of experiments (not included in the video), he was twisting his wrist to help create the swoop/swipe motion. This was raising the butt of the cue during the stroke, which lowered the tip, creating extra cue elevation and a below-center hit. (FYI, tightening the grip or swinging the arm out and up on the stroke would do the same thing.) He was aiming at 9 o'clock on the CB, but he was actually hitting at 7:30 or 8. We verified this by checking the tip contact point on the CB after each hit. This results in a different angle and aim into the rail, and drag action, both of which increase the effective rebound angle off the cushion. FYI, both of these effects are demonstrated in the video (with straight strokes) starting at the 5:07 mark.
In your tests, are you sure the CB was hitting the same point on the rail? Did you check the tip contact points on the CB after the shots?
When you get a chance, try the shot again with a straight stroke with a slightly-elevated cue hitting close to the miscue limit at about 7:30 or 8 o'clock with the same speed as with the swoop stroke. Also aim to hit the same spot on the cushion as with the swoop stroke. You might need to adjust your aim some to accomplish this. I bet you can easily match or beat the swoop stroke mark.
Let us know what you find.
Thanks,
Dave
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This whole thread reminds me of a big argument I had with Tom Ross many years ago, while we were filming for the VEPS project.
He was convinced that different "types" or "qualities" of stroke produced different results. I finally convinced him that the CB doesn't care about the type or quality of stroke. Tom actually wrote some articles about this in Billiards Digest. For those interested, more background and the articles can be found here:
stroke "type" and "quality" resource page
Enjoy,
Dave
He was convinced that different "types" or "qualities" of stroke produced different results. I finally convinced him that the CB doesn't care about the type or quality of stroke. Tom actually wrote some articles about this in Billiards Digest. For those interested, more background and the articles can be found here:
stroke "type" and "quality" resource page
Enjoy,
Dave
Geez, Neil, it was a freakin' joke, and a good one at that! Relax, why don't you, it's just a GD game. Why suck all the fun out of it?
Here's a word for you to ponder: priapism
It means having a perpetual hard on.
I´m getting a bit curious and thoughtful....
What is the purpose of your tries when you have set positions for the cue, tip, angle etc that I don´t see the swoope players use when swiping?
My understanding of the swoope I get from trying it myself (newbie at what I call it, - "fluid swiping"), playing soccer, golf and a lot of ball sports. To put draw, fade etc in soccer or golf you come from one side and finish on the opposite side.
Also, spinning a Tombola, prayer scrolls etc.
With the diagrams posted you come in parallell with side and then go further to the side, that´s not what I see when SVB, Efren etc are doing it. They are "crossing lines" imo to get the maximum effect with a minimum effort and also counter the deflection (BHE) in the same time.
I think Buddy Hall calls it "Tuc´n Roll", and if I recall exact he refers it in one of his DVD´s to "you have to do that to put spin on the ball". I don´t agree that´s the only way but I get what and why he says it imo.
There are a lot of schooled people here and even if I´m not in that trade myself I do know that if I put my body behind a uppercut it will punch harder and have a different outcome.
If you do want to find out why there obviously is players of "fantastic caliber" that sweeps the ball I suggest you try to copy them as good as you can.
Doing that you can´t just see were the tip contacts the CB, and also not just look by the angle "upfront" you need to look at the big picture, were is the butt compared to the tip, the mass - cue and body imo.
To see what I see you can set up a straight in shot, centerball hit and when you are in your normal position just lean to the right or left with the hole body, just tilt it a bit and look at the result. I can "cheat the pocket" like that - don´t say I use that technique but it´s a fun try that at least shows me things. Lean to the right - push to the left and vice versa.
If you look at your diagram in reverse I see the same thing (of course), it´s less mass that hits the cue.
Since I haven´t mastered the "swoop" yet ( in every direction) I look forward to see more and hopefully share the feelings I get - that is if anyone is interested
.I for one would love to do a topspin as easy as SVB does it with sweeping
.However, I can juice the ball very good with a different technique than him but I feel and see that he is sliiiiiiightly better pool player than I am and I guess there is a reason for him to pick it up later in his career - he probably thinks it´s better.....
One technique in playing style that I really like is CJ´s, it´s a very strong and competitive style and I use it "all" the time but I choose to try everything out to find out for myself and pick the apples that suits my personality/game. Doing so means that I experiment a lot with different techniques and of course I gratefully miss a lot, why gratefully - well that´s how we learn. I learn very fast though and enjoy the curve so with some help from forum members I´m sure I will master the sweeping soon enough
.I know there are some really good sweepers out there, can you please share your thoughts so we all can learn from it.
CJ, I know you flick your wrist (same here nowadays...) in a very small motion, not as big and at lest to me not in the same way as Efren etc but can you please share your thoughts on it?
I´m here to learn so please comment, in whatever form or shape.
Regards
Christian
This was IMO of course:wink:
Forgot, I just want to add something, I don´t necessarily think that the fluid motion for every angle is needed or makes that great effect but to cross the lines do imo. I´m thinking in the line of that the fluid sweeping is a result of, - when you know how to do it flows sort of... you just see the spot and hit it. We can achieve such great things, there is no hard or diffucult ways for them who has mastered them. I thought it was really hard to hit a stopshot when I first began to play, not so any more. Just a matter of training. I began learning TOI in a very "robotic" way, nowadays I go down with TOI, to explain it however I can show it step by step. - Thanks CJ!
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Dave,
Perhaps after work I will experiment, but didn't find any advantage to hitting at 8:00 or 10:00. I was just trying to "rub" along the 9:00 line but who knows what was really happening for I didn't have a camera on me to see what was happening durint that millisecond contact.
Although I shoot with a Z2 shaft, and any deflection would have been to the right of center to my initial stroke line, but I was consistently hitting the center diamond from what I could see.
I was hoping that you would have studied that outlier result of 11 and explain and recreate it consistently so we all could use that information.
I will attach this to my original description of what I did and achieved.
Be well.
Hi E,
I was going to say this earlier but I was not exactly sure of your set up as I read it.
I've gotten similar results as your '47*' shot. I've shot down close & parallel to the long rail & have gotten the CB to hit between the 3rd. diamond & the side pocket. I think that is a similar angle outcome.
I've also shot into the short rail on a rather large angle & had the ball come back way past from where I was shooting.
With my cue coming off my bridge hand as it does, I doubt that I am hitting in any downward motion or below the equator but...as Chrippa mentioned, I might be hitting slightly below the equator with the tip coming up & out during that millisecond of contact time. But like you, I'm not sure.
You Be Well & Everyone Else Too,
Rick
I find it better to shoot across table when I do these tests. Because of the closer proximity, I can see for sure where the CB hits, and I don't have to account as much for spin that gets scrubbed off on the long path to the end rail.