Truedat (although if you say "celebrities" instead of "pros" the count is a little higher than one).
pj
chgo
Question about intentional swerve
- Thread starter bdorman
- Start date
pj
chgo
Again, you are doing it. Maybe you don't even realize you are, but you are. The only mob mentality is that against anyone that dares disagree with some statements made on here. If one dares disagree, they are labled a mobster. Call me what you want, it doesn't change the truth at all. I'm all about facts and factual information, I understand that some can't handle that. But, what is sickening is that I and others on here providing the facts get lambasted for telling the truth.
All I am after is correct information, and actually helping others. That you find that offensive tells a lot about what you are after. Yes, I am sick of this crap on here all the time too. That is why I have quit several times.
Maybe it's time to get the blinders off and see things for what they really are.
RBC
Deceased
I think it's important to realize that it's not only possible but it's also quite common or even likely that those who execute a skill like pool at a much higher level than most others do it more subconsciously than consciously.
The "Pros", in my experience, can do things things that I can't do but I can explain very clearly. However, what they actually think is happening doesn't always add up. There's no doubt about what they can do, but that doesn't mean they can explain how they do it our how you could do it.
This is in no way a knock on the pro players.
It is a recognition of what makes them a Pro, and that is there there talent. The fact that they may not know how to explain the nuts and bolts of it has zero relevance to their unbelievable skill.
Royce Bunnell
Royce
The "Pros", in my experience, can do things things that I can't do but I can explain very clearly. However, what they actually think is happening doesn't always add up. There's no doubt about what they can do, but that doesn't mean they can explain how they do it our how you could do it.
This is in no way a knock on the pro players.
It is a recognition of what makes them a Pro, and that is there there talent. The fact that they may not know how to explain the nuts and bolts of it has zero relevance to their unbelievable skill.
Royce Bunnell
Royce
This is true, and pros deserve our respect for the talent they have and the heights of their accomplishments in pool. But that's not the same as saying we should respect everything they have to say about everything.
A pro's stature in pool makes some naïve readers believe everything they say, and this can be (often is) misleading. On a worldwide pool discussion forum like this, where players at all levels of development and knowledge are here to learn, critical analysis of what pros say should not just be permitted - it should be encouraged.
pj
chgo
RBC
Deceased
PJ
I absolutely agree.
There's no shame in a top level player, or any level player for that matter, not necessarily being able to explain how a particular shot works.
Thanks
Royce
Was that the time when I had every gang member bully coming at me from every direction with switch blades drawn or was it a time when I committed a sacrilege & didn't 'worship' the right 'god'.
Best 2 You,
Rick
PS I'm glad to see you've left the group.
PSS I have often & still do at times agree with a lot of what you say. But...I guess 2 individuals can't see eye to eye on everything all of the time.
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Wow, there is much happening here when I´m gone for a while
.
Peace everyone, Please!!!
Everyone has the right to a opinion, it´s just as easy as we all have a favourite color, favourite dish etc.
I welcome anyone that posts here but I do seek out the ones that value other opinions and have respect for them.
"Pros", I get a great load of information that I can relate to from CJ, I have been training and thinking about the body for almost all may life, I have been searching and finding a lot that I can relate to and for one thing it´s the understandning of marshial arts.
What one consider is a fact don´t necessarily means that it is a fact, "work in progress".
Science is always changing - I guess you all have faced that fact.I welcome every test there is but do please remember ( just look in the mirror) that we are individuals and we do things differently, we are no robots we are humans and we differ from each other.
I´m Swedish and I probably doesn't wright or speak exactly like a US or English citizen but I think most of you with a bit of fantasy can fill out the blanks to understand what I wish to say.
Do the same to others when they try to explain what they are doing, feeling etc. To understand CJ (just a example, a good one imo since he´s the only pro that has shared his opinions, knowledge etc in such exploited and detailed way) you have to be willing to "hear him". Finding faults is no big issue if you want to find them, seeking "rights" however is even more easy if you are willing to "really listen" and try out what he is trying to explain.
I have not the "I want to win at every cost" in my book but in a time CJ had that desire and I would say he was a true giant in perceiver, patience, getting in the "zone" etc to just win "cash" - that was one of his goals and when you have a specific goal in your mind and truly admit to it it´s going to happen.
Take care everyone and please do share your opinions, thoughts etc in a peaceful manor and in a state that you truly wish ones best, I promise you that doing that it will really help yourself to gain more wisdom.
Best regards
Christian
.Peace everyone, Please!!!
Everyone has the right to a opinion, it´s just as easy as we all have a favourite color, favourite dish etc.
I welcome anyone that posts here but I do seek out the ones that value other opinions and have respect for them.
"Pros", I get a great load of information that I can relate to from CJ, I have been training and thinking about the body for almost all may life, I have been searching and finding a lot that I can relate to and for one thing it´s the understandning of marshial arts.
What one consider is a fact don´t necessarily means that it is a fact, "work in progress".
Science is always changing - I guess you all have faced that fact.I welcome every test there is but do please remember ( just look in the mirror) that we are individuals and we do things differently, we are no robots we are humans and we differ from each other.
I´m Swedish and I probably doesn't wright or speak exactly like a US or English citizen but I think most of you with a bit of fantasy can fill out the blanks to understand what I wish to say.
Do the same to others when they try to explain what they are doing, feeling etc. To understand CJ (just a example, a good one imo since he´s the only pro that has shared his opinions, knowledge etc in such exploited and detailed way) you have to be willing to "hear him". Finding faults is no big issue if you want to find them, seeking "rights" however is even more easy if you are willing to "really listen" and try out what he is trying to explain.
I have not the "I want to win at every cost" in my book but in a time CJ had that desire and I would say he was a true giant in perceiver, patience, getting in the "zone" etc to just win "cash" - that was one of his goals and when you have a specific goal in your mind and truly admit to it it´s going to happen.
Take care everyone and please do share your opinions, thoughts etc in a peaceful manor and in a state that you truly wish ones best, I promise you that doing that it will really help yourself to gain more wisdom.
Best regards
Christian
using the hips, not the head to get down on the shot
You're welcome - there's a lot to learn about this game.....and some things to "un-learn". The human body was not designed to play pool, so leaning the technical aspects is essential to reach the higher levels.....the rule of thumb is "if it feels right, it's probably wrong" - and such is life. :thumbup2:
I learned a lot about teaching the stroke in pocket billiards by learning the golf swing from Hank Haney. He created a "stroke" that ONLY utilizes what's essential, and cutting out what's not (vital). The only thing that matters is how the tip is making contact with the cue ball......"the moment of truth is the moment of contact"
The stroke in pool is much the same, the less wasted motion, the better, because it will be precise, accurate, and powerful. The wrist motion is the key, however, to learn this skill a player will have to "unlearn" some of the things they've heard and read.
The other positive aspect is creating a pre-shot routine that rehearses all the upcoming stroke requirements, and also allowing the player to get down on the shot without strain on the back and neck.....you will be facing the shot, using the hips, not the head to get down on the shot.
I´m getting a bit curious and thoughtful....
What is the purpose of your tries when you have set positions for the cue, tip, angle etc that I don´t see the swoope players use when swiping?
My understanding of the swoope I get from trying it myself (newbie at what I call it, - "fluid swiping"), playing soccer, golf and a lot of ball sports. To put draw, fade etc in soccer or golf you come from one side and finish on the opposite side.
Also, spinning a Tombola, prayer scrolls etc.
With the diagrams posted you come in parallell with side and then go further to the side, that´s not what I see when SVB, Efren etc are doing it. They are "crossing lines" imo to get the maximum effect with a minimum effort and also counter the deflection (BHE) in the same time.
I think Buddy Hall calls it "Tuc´n Roll", and if I recall exact he refers it in one of his DVD´s to "you have to do that to put spin on the ball". I don´t agree that´s the only way but I get what and why he says it imo.
There are a lot of schooled people here and even if I´m not in that trade myself I do know that if I put my body behind a uppercut it will punch harder and have a different outcome.
If you do want to find out why there obviously is players of "fantastic caliber" that sweeps the ball I suggest you try to copy them as good as you can.
Doing that you can´t just see were the tip contacts the CB, and also not just look by the angle "upfront" you need to look at the big picture, were is the butt compared to the tip, the mass - cue and body imo.
To see what I see you can set up a straight in shot, centerball hit and when you are in your normal position just lean to the right or left with the hole body, just tilt it a bit and look at the result. I can "cheat the pocket" like that - don´t say I use that technique but it´s a fun try that at least shows me things. Lean to the right - push to the left and vice versa.
If you look at your diagram in reverse I see the same thing (of course), it´s less mass that hits the cue.
Since I haven´t mastered the "swoop" yet ( in every direction) I look forward to see more and hopefully share the feelings I get - that is if anyone is interested
I for one would love to do a topspin as easy as SVB does it with sweeping.
However, I can juice the ball very good with a different technique than him but I feel and see that he is sliiiiiiightly better pool player than I am and I guess there is a reason for him to pick it up later in his career - he probably thinks it´s better.....
One technique in playing style that I really like is CJ´s, it´s a very strong and competitive style and I use it "all" the time but I choose to try everything out to find out for myself and pick the apples that suits my personality/game. Doing so means that I experiment a lot with different techniques and of course I gratefully miss a lot, why gratefully - well that´s how we learn. I learn very fast though and enjoy the curve so with some help from forum members I´m sure I will master the sweeping soon enough
I know there are some really good sweepers out there, can you please share your thoughts so we all can learn from it.
CJ, I know you flick your wrist (same here nowadays...) in a very small motion, not as big and at lest to me not in the same way as Efren etc but can you please share your thoughts on it?
I´m here to learn so please comment, in whatever form or shape.
Regards
Christian
This was IMO of course:wink:
Forgot, I just want to add something, I don´t necessarily think that the fluid motion for every angle is needed or makes that great effect but to cross the lines do imo. I´m thinking in the line of that the fluid sweeping is a result of, - when you know how to do it flows sort of... you just see the spot and hit it. We can achieve such great things, there is no hard or diffucult ways for them who has mastered them. I thought it was really hard to hit a stopshot when I first began to play, not so any more. Just a matter of training. I began learning TOI in a very "robotic" way, nowadays I go down with TOI, to explain it however I can show it step by step. - Thanks CJ!
You're welcome - there's a lot to learn about this game.....and some things to "un-learn". The human body was not designed to play pool, so leaning the technical aspects is essential to reach the higher levels.....the rule of thumb is "if it feels right, it's probably wrong" - and such is life. :thumbup2:
I learned a lot about teaching the stroke in pocket billiards by learning the golf swing from Hank Haney. He created a "stroke" that ONLY utilizes what's essential, and cutting out what's not (vital). The only thing that matters is how the tip is making contact with the cue ball......"the moment of truth is the moment of contact"
The stroke in pool is much the same, the less wasted motion, the better, because it will be precise, accurate, and powerful. The wrist motion is the key, however, to learn this skill a player will have to "unlearn" some of the things they've heard and read.
The other positive aspect is creating a pre-shot routine that rehearses all the upcoming stroke requirements, and also allowing the player to get down on the shot without strain on the back and neck.....you will be facing the shot, using the hips, not the head to get down on the shot.
Pool is actually a miniature version of golf and tennis in many respects.
I have to say it does take thousands of hours to understand how to teach this game at a high level. You can't do it by "wishing" or pretending, a professional player would still need the "gift of teaching" which is learned, and also a natural ability. My passion at age 12 was teaching tennis and traveled around with a pro giving lessons in northern Mo. Then golf became my passion, although I was playing a lot of pool at the time. Pool is actually a miniature version of golf and tennis in many respects.
Martial arts is what taught me how the body works from the Kinesiology perspective. This is what I specialize in, if a player develops the physical mechanics to a championship level their game will automatically jump up several levels. The game of pool is pretty easy, what's challenging is to understand how the body produces the best sight lines, consistency {in body angles} and connecting the ENTIRE body to the tip, through the tip, hands, arms, shoulders and hips....through the foundation of the feet. This sounds easy, however, it took me a life-time to learn well enough to teach.
'The Game is the Teacher'
This is pretty much what I see this forum turning into. We've accepted the mindset that most pros have no real idea what it takes to play this game from an academic standpoint. And by default, they fill our simple minds with "mythical, magical" nonsense.
There are few pros that post here, anymore. It's not because they're too busy, it's because a handful of posters question every detail of their posting. They lurk and pounce at every opportunity and tag team them because they're trying to protect the average poster from..."mythical, magical" information.
If a poster responds, they're labeled a nut hugger and forever banished from intelligent discussion with the "knowledge guys". I've talked with a pro friend, author, magazine contributor, who knows many other pros. I asked them to start posting and they literally laughed at me because of all the "know it all" posters.
We need the science, every sport does. What we don't need is the handful of petty, self aggrandizing trolls who attack everybody who dares raise an issue with their omniscience. You want to contribute to the knowledge base, EXCELLENT! Like Sloppy says, quit beating people over the head and parroting a bunch of stuff from Dr.Dave's site (kudos to Dave
We don't need to be saved from certain insanity by listening to top players. Stay out of their threads unless you're in the discussion and don't pop in and set everybody straight. You're actually negatively affecting the growth of knowledge and the possibility of members learning when you disrupt the threads.
Like I said, just a handful and we all know who you are. 50,000 members and 10-15 posters are in charge of who says what in these threads.Step up and be counted.
Best,
Mike
I have to say it does take thousands of hours to understand how to teach this game at a high level. You can't do it by "wishing" or pretending, a professional player would still need the "gift of teaching" which is learned, and also a natural ability. My passion at age 12 was teaching tennis and traveled around with a pro giving lessons in northern Mo. Then golf became my passion, although I was playing a lot of pool at the time. Pool is actually a miniature version of golf and tennis in many respects.
Martial arts is what taught me how the body works from the Kinesiology perspective. This is what I specialize in, if a player develops the physical mechanics to a championship level their game will automatically jump up several levels. The game of pool is pretty easy, what's challenging is to understand how the body produces the best sight lines, consistency {in body angles} and connecting the ENTIRE body to the tip, through the tip, hands, arms, shoulders and hips....through the foundation of the feet. This sounds easy, however, it took me a life-time to learn well enough to teach.
'The Game is the Teacher'
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well said.
Figure this out and the game starts to make sense. The cue ball actually goes where you aim and the mechanics of the stroke are solid without off center cue ball miss hits and steering compensations.
Best,
Mike
Good post, Christian. You hit the nail on the head with your observations. CJ has been a catalyst for discussion on these forums. I've learned a lot from him and I'm sure he's got a ton more he could teach us if we keep the constructive comments in the forefront of our chats.
As an aside, we're probably related with long distant family connections if you're a true Swede. I can trace my family back to many rulers of Uppsala and The Vikings. I'll bet I've got a few cousins there. I'm 283, 983, 764, 736th in line to be King of Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway and several other countries. :thumbup:
If I get in there, pool will become the national sport and you'll be appointed the Earl of Pool. It could happen.
Best,
Mike
I humble bow for the king:thumbup:.
thanks Mike, I do know that we share some common grounds about understanding pool.
You are more than welcome to Sweden and as a King I will set you up with room and boarder :wink:.
Regards
Christian
I finally went down a one-way street the wrong way
I was over in Sweden for the WPA World Championships one year. We flew in to Stockholm and rented a car. I couldn't read one road sign and drove straight (or nearly so) to Borlange Sweden....this was a "road trip" that was dramatically unusual compared to my others....every sign looked like an "alphabet explosion" to me. LoL
The last day we were there (I was with Larry Liscotti, his wife, and mine) I finally went down a one-way street the wrong way......and the oncoming traffic was very understanding. We had a blast there, the bars were wild, and equally fun....not to mention the beautiful, blond women......of course I was married and didn't "order anything" off the menu.
'The Game is the Teacher'
I was over in Sweden for the WPA World Championships one year. We flew in to Stockholm and rented a car. I couldn't read one road sign and drove straight (or nearly so) to Borlange Sweden....this was a "road trip" that was dramatically unusual compared to my others....every sign looked like an "alphabet explosion" to me. LoL
The last day we were there (I was with Larry Liscotti, his wife, and mine) I finally went down a one-way street the wrong way......and the oncoming traffic was very understanding. We had a blast there, the bars were wild, and equally fun....not to mention the beautiful, blond women......of course I was married and didn't "order anything" off the menu.
'The Game is the Teacher'
I was over in Sweden for the WPA World Championships one year. We flew in to Stockholm and rented a car. I couldn't read one road sign and drove straight (or nearly so) to Borlange Sweden....this was a "road trip" that was dramatically unusual compared to my others....every sign looked like an "alphabet explosion" to me. LoL
The last day we were there (I was with Larry Liscotti, his wife, and mine) I finally went down a one-way street the wrong way......and the oncoming traffic was very understanding. We had a blast there, the bars were wild, and equally fun....not to mention the beautiful, blond women......of course I was married and didn't "order anything" off the menu.
The story was good until I read the last line. :thumbup:
Best,
Mike
Buddy Hall
Hi guys and girls,
do take a look at this and give this thread some thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoc-mBgw8Wk
Begin at 29:20. Crossing some lines imo. Look at the high ball on # 3 and look at were the tip ends after the strike.
Other shot, you can do so much if you just see "the lines".
What are your thoughts?
Take care and play well my friends
Christian
Ps do look at the match also, Bustamante is very obvious to look at imo. Starts from the inside ( or if you prefer from the center) and crosses when he he needs some outside, he does the same when using top, starts from the bottom and finish high - crossing the lines.
At least thats what I see.... Comments are welcomed
Hi guys and girls,
do take a look at this and give this thread some thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoc-mBgw8Wk
Begin at 29:20. Crossing some lines imo. Look at the high ball on # 3 and look at were the tip ends after the strike.
Other shot, you can do so much if you just see "the lines".
What are your thoughts?
Take care and play well my friends
Christian
Ps do look at the match also, Bustamante is very obvious to look at imo. Starts from the inside ( or if you prefer from the center) and crosses when he he needs some outside, he does the same when using top, starts from the bottom and finish high - crossing the lines.
At least thats what I see.... Comments are welcomed
1. If you watch closely it's apparent that the hitch mostly happens after the CB is gone - it's just a common case of steering (which I thought that was beneath Buddy).Hi guys and girls,
do take a look at this and give this thread some thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoc-mBgw8Wk
Begin at 29:20. Crossing some lines imo. Look at the high ball on # 3 and look at were the tip ends after the strike.
Other shot, you can do so much if you just see "the lines".
What are your thoughts?
Take care and play well my friends
Christian
Ps do look at the match also, Bustamante is very obvious to look at imo. Starts from the inside ( or if you prefer from the center) and crosses when he he needs some outside, he does the same when using top, starts from the bottom and finish high - crossing the lines.
At least thats what I see.... Comments are welcomed
2. The shot doesn't need any sidespin and clearly doesn't have any. If it had sidespin it would hit the blocking ball coming off the rail.
pj
chgo
Hi guys and girls,
do take a look at this and give this thread some thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoc-mBgw8Wk
Begin at 29:20. Crossing some lines imo. Look at the high ball on # 3 and look at were the tip ends after the strike.
Other shot, you can do so much if you just see "the lines".
What are your thoughts?
Take care and play well my friends
Christian
Ps do look at the match also, Bustamante is very obvious to look at imo. Starts from the inside ( or if you prefer from the center) and crosses when he he needs some outside, he does the same when using top, starts from the bottom and finish high - crossing the lines.
At least thats what I see.... Comments are welcomed
He's not "crossing lines" like you want to think he is. He clearly is shooting straight, then, well after contact, he drops his elbow which moves the cue off line. This can clearly be seen when they replay the shot and you simply hit pause/start to view it.