Question about Kinister's shot# 1

[The Chinchilla]

Thanks so much for all the responses! Let me ask this now...he says that u HAVE to hit center ball. That would mean the CB has to slide a distance of 4 diamonds. Wouldn't you have to pummel the CB in order to achieve that? I'm pretty sure the OB would rattle out at that speed, and angle.

I've always read that as your distance to the OB increases you have to hit lower on the CB so the backward spin turns into slide, then forward roll, as you strike the OB.

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Another very good question. I'm not sure why he is so caught up on that. I think maybe he feels the shot is important for finding center ball. Myself, I think the center AXIS is very important to "find," along with center ball. I shot this particular shot until I could do it pretty much every time, yet I didn't do it like bert. I hit it low and soft and kept control of my stroke that way. The reason I do this, is because when you actually need to execute this shot (in a game), the center ball theory is OUT. The reason why is, many many time you need to replace the ball exactly, in other words, not deviate to the right or left any. By hitting it as hard as he does, there is no "buffer" against slight mishits on the ob. Soft hits are very forgiving. This is twofold as well..... the pocket get bigger (a lot bigger) at the speed I hit it, you dont suffer ant loss of accuracy, AND the aforementioned benefit of having a buffer from lateral cb movement.

I think you are asking some great questions, and if i had to guess i bet yu are improving quickly. Half the battle is asking good questions

 

[The Chinchilla]

To op: listen to this astute poster too, he knows what he is talking about

I think the goal of this shot is to fine tune your control. If you can master that shot it will boost your confidence and your short control of the cue ball will be sharp as a razor.
Personally I don't think the replacement shot comes up but once in a blue moon but the skill gained from practicing it is used every time you play.

 

[The Chinchilla]

Well, speed of stroke or power, bottom line... the CB needs to be stroked with a lot of speed at 4 diamonds right? I'm practicing on an 8 ft table. I don't know what size table he's using but it looks awful small. That's one of the things that really bugs me about his videos. I can't get a true sense of the speed of stroke because he's using such a small table. I also think the table length draw he demonstrates on another one of his videos can be achieved with a slower stroke than on an 8 footer. At 4 diamonds apart I can only draw back about half ways. But that's a topic for a seperate thread

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He has some VERy weak stuff in there. Like when he says you can roll a ball the length of the table at a snails pace. Maybe on his perfectly level table?? I dont know what he is talking about there. Ha. I do think most all his principles apply to a large table though. Just think about what the shot is supposed to be giving you, and make it your own. I mean, watch efren shoot a strait in ball, then watch strickland.... they do it differently. I think you have to find your way to execute his shots, and be able to repeat them as consistently as possible. Dont get too caught up on the HOW he says to do things is my advice.

 

[Cdryden]

To op: listen to this astute poster too, he knows what he is talking about

Aww shucks, thanks, every now and then I get something right. This is making me want to go back over my Kinister videos, he has some great info.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Thanks so much for all the responses! Let me ask this now...he says that u HAVE to hit center ball. That would mean the CB has to slide a distance of 4 diamonds. Wouldn't you have to pummel the CB in order to achieve that? I'm pretty sure the OB would rattle out at that speed, and angle.

I've always read that as your distance to the OB increases you have to hit lower on the CB so the backward spin turns into slide, then forward roll, as you strike the OB.

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He was on a 7'er when he said that. On a 9'er, you must hit a hair low or you have to hit the CB at the speed of light.

 

[pmata814]

Chinchilla...thx so much for your comments. I agree with you on the soft stroke comment. I've always felt my consistency go up dramatically when I shoot with only enough speed to pocket the OB. I know Bert is using this shot as a stroke builder, but like you, I find it so much easier, and more in control, to shoot this with more low and less speed

I also agree that you have to analyze Bert's videos and try to decipher for yourself what point he's trying to get across. A lot of times he seems to contradict himself from one video to the next. For example in one of the videos he tells his student to put the tip on the table, then raise it just a bit and "that's how low you have to hit it in order to get table length draw" then in another video he says you must hit the ball no more "than a tip below center" in order to achieve full length draw. ???? He goes on to say something to the effect of the ball 'skipping' along the table, like 'stones on a pond', when u strike the ball too low. Can't remember exactly. I'd have to go back and check it again.

That's why I post my questions here to get the input of other players/instructors to help me understand. And I greatly appreciate all the input.

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[Cdryden]

Chinchilla...thx so much for your comments. I agree with you on the soft stroke comment. I've always felt my consistency go up dramatically when I shoot with only enough speed to pocket the OB. I know Bert is using this shot as a stroke builder, but like you, I find it so much easier, and more in control, to shoot this with more low and less speed

I also agree that you have to analyze Bert's videos and try to decipher for yourself what point he's trying to get across. A lot of times he seems to contradict himself from one video to the next. For example in one of the videos he tells his student to put the tip on the table, then raise it just a bit and "that's how low you have to hit it in order to get table length draw" then in another video he says you must hit the ball no more "than a tip below center" in order to achieve full length draw. ???? He goes on to say something to the effect of the ball 'skipping' along the table, like 'stones on a pond', when u strike the ball too low. Can't remember exactly. I'd have to go back and check it again.

That's why I post my questions here to get the input of other players/instructors to help me understand. And I greatly appreciate all the input.

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I always equate the draw shot to learning to drive a standard transmission. You have to get a feel for the ratio of gas vs clutch.

A successful draw shot is allot like that. You have to get the right mix of power, distance and cue tip position to obtain the desired length of draw.

There are other factors to consider but you get the point.

 

[pmata814]

I always equate the draw shot to learning to drive a standard transmission. You have to get a feel for the ratio of gas vs clutch.



A successful draw shot is allot like that. You have to get the right mix of power, distance and cue tip position to obtain the desired length of draw.



There are other factors to consider but you get the point.

What an awesome analogy!


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[Scott Lee]

Really Dave? I'm willing to bet that you cannot perform Mother Drill 6 flawlessly (since it requires "almost no skill whatsoever"). Remember this...this drill involves a perfect stop shot...not just "close". Can't wait to see you again (perhaps in Vegas) and make this bet. Anyone else who would like to step up is welcome.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Stop shots from any distance require almost no skill whatsoever.

 

[champ2107]

Really Dave? I'm willing to bet that you cannot perform Mother Drill 6 flawlessly (since it requires "almost no skill whatsoever"). Remember this...this drill involves a perfect stop shot...not just "close". Can't wait to see you again (perhaps in Vegas) and make this bet. Anyone else who would like to step up is welcome.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

whats the drill? i will give it a go

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Really Dave? I'm willing to bet that you cannot perform Mother Drill 6 flawlessly (since it requires "almost no skill whatsoever"). Remember this...this drill involves a perfect stop shot...not just "close". Can't wait to see you again (perhaps in Vegas) and make this bet. Anyone else who would like to step up is welcome.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'll take the bet as long as you have to shoot it too. Then, we'll go again at a series of shot #1s.

Basically, you missed my entire point and the point of the original post.

You implied that shot #1 was a shot drill (that never comes up) when it's a stroke drill. You also said the only thing that matters is a solid, repeatable stroke (and that's the actual purpose of shot#1).

My point is that I can make a stop shot one handed whereas a true shot#1 is really hard. I think you're getting defensive and I don't know why. Are you saying a stop shot and shot#1 are the same difficulty? If so, I'll take your mother drill and you can take a shot#1 at the same distance for whatever. Relax, bud!!

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[Cdryden]

Really Dave? I'm willing to bet that you cannot perform Mother Drill 6 flawlessly (since it requires "almost no skill whatsoever"). Remember this...this drill involves a perfect stop shot...not just "close". Can't wait to see you again (perhaps in Vegas) and make this bet. Anyone else who would like to step up is welcome.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Trap set.


I agree, it's a bad idea to underestimate this shot. As soon as you do it jumps up and bites you in the butt.

 

[Scott Lee]

Dave...You misunderstand me. I'm saying Mother Drill 6 is quite difficult to do perfectly...as is Kinister's shot #1 (it is far more difficult, imo). It's not about me shooting either one. You're the one making bold statements like a stopshot requires no skill whatsoever. I, on the other hand, acknowledge the degree of difficulty for both drills, and try to steer my students to which one is more important, and which one to practice the most. You make statements like "I can shoot a stop shot one handed". I say you cannot...at least not in my definition (ZERO movement of the CB after contact with the OB). The bet is that you cannot do Mother Drill #6, in it's entirety, perfectly...even with two hands. That is the goal we ask our students to try to achieve. I didn't miss your point, or the point of the post. I stand by my original assertion...the need for Kinister's shot #1 comes up rarely; it is more difficult to master; and is difficult (at best) to master, without first mastering a perfect stop shot. Does Kinister's shot have a place in your arsenal? Certainly. Should people obsess over it...imo nope. Trying to shoot it hundreds of times is obsession.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'll take the bet as long as you have to shoot it too. Then, we'll go again at a series of shot #1s.

Basically, you missed my entire point and the point of the original post.

You implied that shot #1 was a shot drill (that never comes up) when it's a stroke drill. You also said the only thing that matters is a solid, repeatable stroke (and that's the actual purpose of shot#1).

My point is that I can make a stop shot one handed whereas a true shot#1 is really hard. I think you're getting defensive and I don't know why. Are you saying a stop shot and shot#1 are the same difficulty? If so, I'll take your mother drill and you can take a shot#1 at the same distance for whatever. Relax, bud!!

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[SpiderWebComm]

Dave...You misunderstand me. I'm saying Mother Drill 6 is quite difficult to do perfectly...as is Kinister's shot #1 (it is far more difficult, imo). It's not about me shooting either one. You're the one making bold statements like a stopshot requires no skill whatsoever. I, on the other hand, acknowledge the degree of difficulty for both drills, and try to steer my students to which one is more important, and which one to practice the most. You make statements like "I can shoot a stop shot one handed". I say you cannot...at least not in my definition (ZERO movement of the CB after contact with the OB). The bet is that you cannot do Mother Drill #6, in it's entirety, perfectly...even with two hands. That is the goal we ask our students to try to achieve. I didn't miss your point, or the point of the post. I stand by my original assertion...the need for Kinister's shot #1 comes up rarely; it is more difficult to master; and is difficult (at best) to master, without first mastering a perfect stop shot. Does Kinister's shot have a place in your arsenal? Certainly. Should people obsess over it...imo nope. Trying to shoot it hundreds of times is obsession.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The need for shot#1 comes up on every shot--- "A solid stroke" -- the purpose of the drill. People obsess over it are obsessed with perfecting their stroke -- not the shot. I prob shot that shot thousands and thousands of times and not once was I trying to master "that shot." I was trying to master the stroke required to make that shot.

What is mother drill #6 anyways??

I wasn't trying to make bold statements -- just saying stop shots are an order of magnitude easier than replacement shots.

 

[champ2107]

he made a challenge and i accepted and he wont explain what the drill is?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Trap set.


I agree, it's a bad idea to underestimate this shot. As soon as you do it jumps up and bites you in the butt.

Ummm... how is a trap set if we're each shooting the same shot?

That's like betting a golfer they can't break par (assuming they're scratch) while you ride in the cart drinking a beer and watching. But, if the golfer accepts the bet and bets you the same at the same time--- it's not quite the same trap -- follow me?

I love Scott and wouldn't bet him a penny on anything -- it's obvious we see shot#1 as two different types of drills and we're both right.

I still wanna know what mother drill 6 is, though

 

[Scott Lee]

Dave...It is a trap. I'm not betting I can do Mother Drill 6 perfectly, in one try. I'm betting you cannot...most especially under pressure, with others watching. People can make assumptions all day long, on their home table in their basement. That said, the proof is being able to do it on demand, under pressure, in one try. Anyone who really wishes to bet on this would have to do so in person with me...that includes you Champ! Love (and respect) you too, Dave!

Mother Drill 6: Use a laser to create a perfect straight line, from the head string into the middle of the far corner pocket opening. Use hole reinforcements (lining them up directly under the laser), and place them at every diamond distance, right up to the pocket. You will have 6 distances to shoot the shot (1-6 diamonds between CB and OB). You must stop the CB perfectly...no movement up or back or sideways...or it doesn't count. This takes a very well developed stroke. I won't even get into the other part of the drill (drawing and following accurately, at different distances).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Ummm... how is a trap set if we're each shooting the same shot?

That's like betting a golfer they can't break par (assuming they're scratch) while you ride in the cart drinking a beer and watching. But, if the golfer accepts the bet and bets you the same at the same time--- it's not quite the same trap -- follow me?

 

[killerstroke]

Bert's shot #1

I follow Bert's advice and like his drills. They have improved my game more than words can explain. As far as his #1 shot, learn it!!!!! There is no easy way to explain it's importance other than to learn it and have the confidence in a match to execute it and get the position you are looking for. If you look at the stun shot and a dead stop shot, straight in and shot from the same place this give you 180 degrees of area the q ball could travel. This shot will teach you how to make the q ball travel forward on any angle you please. For instance if you had a shot with 5 degree angle, the stun shot will teach you the finesse to make the q ball travel anywhere from following it forward with a simple roll to a stop shot and q goes 90 degrees from contact. You will be able to hit anywhere in that 90 degree quadrant. This is very difficult to explain in words. If you learn the stun shot the stop shot is a piece of cake.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave...It is a trap. I'm not betting I can do Mother Drill 6 perfectly, in one try. I'm betting you cannot...most especially under pressure, with others watching. People can make assumptions all day long, on their home table in their basement. That said, the proof is being able to do it on demand, under pressure, in one try. Anyone who really wishes to bet on this would have to do so in person with me...that includes you Champ! Love (and respect) you too, Dave!

Mother Drill 6: Use a laser to create a perfect straight line, from the head string into the middle of the far corner pocket opening. Use hole reinforcements (lining them up directly under the laser), and place them at every diamond distance, right up to the pocket. You will have 6 distances to shoot the shot (1-6 diamonds between CB and OB). You must stop the CB perfectly...no movement up or back or sideways...or it doesn't count. This takes a very well developed stroke. I won't even get into the other part of the drill (drawing and following accurately, at different distances).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If you have to use two hole protectors (one for the OB and one for where the CB must be), I'd bet no one could hit all marks under pressure and I'd question if an elite pro could (hit all points) if the bet was high enough. Are you saying you can go down the ladder and hit the hole reinforcements on each shot?

I think I can hit more reinforcements on mother drill 6 than someone could on shot#1. Mother drill 6 can be easily adapted to a progressive shot #1 drill. If someone thinks they have the best of that bet on the shot#1 side, I'll buy a ticket to where they are just to see it

 

[randyg]

Thanks so much for all the responses! Let me ask this now...he says that u HAVE to hit center ball. That would mean the CB has to slide a distance of 4 diamonds. Wouldn't you have to pummel the CB in order to achieve that? I'm pretty sure the OB would rattle out at that speed, and angle.

I've always read that as your distance to the OB increases you have to hit lower on the CB so the backward spin turns into slide, then forward roll, as you strike the OB.

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Maybe Burt is referring to Vertical Center cue ball?
randyg