Question for Jay on Don Willis

Jim...Thanks for posting that link. Dick emailed it to me several years ago, and I printed it out to send to Jack White. Hadn't read it in a long long time. What a facinating man!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
jay helfert said:
What Willis was doing was playing combos and billiards on the 9 when it was his turn, and he kept getting "lucky", or so it seemed. He did have to shoot in some long shots and banks, and he was rifling those in to. But it seemed like he was winning most games on luck. He rarely ran out more than four or five balls. But Don and one other player (Dino I think) were beating the game. Finally it ended up with the two of them left. In short order Don dismantled our local hero. When he was done, he put his house cue back in the rack and hit the door without much fanfare.
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I played Don in downtown LA in 1965 or 1966. I was going to East LA College nights and then down to the poolroom after class. Dean Chance (Cy Young award winner with the Angels) was there with this old guy who was barking at everyone there. Dean asked me if I played pool. I told him I was a collge student in the poolroom studying the diamond system. I thought I was hustling them. Dean told me the old guy was a family friend from Wooster, Ohio that he had brought out to watch the World Series that was in LA that year. He told me the old guy had a lot of money and I should play him and shut him up. We finally played some 9 ball for $10 a game & he beat me for all I had on me, around $100, and I quit. He never ran out and gave me the fisheye when he saw I could run a few balls, but beat me handily without looking like he could play. I heard them say they were going to the room at Hollywood & Western and I followed them over there. I can't remember who all was there but they acted like he was invisible and he barked at everybody and no one would play. When they left I asked one of the old pool room detectives who it was. He said that was Don Willis, the best player the other side of the Mississippi. The only reason he isn't the best player here is he doesn't ever play out here.

I was telling my story to a friend who hung around the room I played at. Bill was a former rated Ping Pong player who traveled around the country in the 1940's playing exhibitions with another top rated player in the US. They were scheduled to play an exhibition at the Dayton County or State Fair when this guy gets them to spot him three points for what was a huge sum of money in those days (1940's). Turns out it was Don Willis and he robbed them. John Henderson
 
Tom Fox

Scott Lee said:
Excuse me George! :eek: I keep track of POOLPLAYER'S names, not writers! :rolleyes: I thought Wertheim was the guy who wrote the original piece in SI on Johnston City, that screwed the tournament and put the IRS on to it...and that it might have been the same guy with Willis.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Tom Fox wrote the original story of Johnston City for Sports Illustrated. He also co-wrote Fat's book.

The Beard
 
I just wanted to say thank you to everybody for these stories. This has been one of the most entertaining threads that I have read in a very long time.
 
freebase

George Fels said:
It's cocaine with ether added to it, making it smokable. There's nothing more addictive on the face of the earth - and Freddy is about the only ex-practicioner you're going to find who ever quit it cold. GF
Click to expand...

A variation of it today is called "Crack" Cocaine. Both freebase and crack are smoked. There is a difference. Think of crack as j*rking off to a dirty mag, and freebase as real sex with Jennifer Lopez.

The Beard
 
Everyone that has shown an interest in my grandfather. He was a fascinating man a pure hustler. He is what drew me to the game. A lot of the stories make him out to almost be a folk hero. Imagine the road team of him and Titanic Thompson. He was adverse to getting his picture took and that was his thing he would roll into town snap off all the locals in the pool room, be the big winner in the backroom card games and leave with his pockets flush. He paid for his home, a new car every three years, set his children up with nest eggs, all with his gambling ability. He never cared if he was known as the best pool player alive he just wanted to support his family the way he knew how. I understand Mr. Fels you are a noted historian and I enjoy your work, but sometimes you say things that leave a little sting. For example the time you wrote about Minnesota Fats, you said you would not legitimize him by refering to him by that moniker. Well he earned it Sir. Without the fat man (whom my grandfather thought of as a friend) the pool world would not have a lot of baby boomers that fell for our wonderful game. My grandfather thought Fat's was a stand-up guy always there to help out kids and an animal lover that took in stray dogs and cats (Fats once lived in a very nice hotel with over 30 cats that he and the staff would feed and take care of). You refer to my grandfather as a card cheat. Did you ever observe him cheat? Did you know anyone who caught him cheating? It is not something I want said about a man I respect unless you have proof to back up that slanderous claim. He came up during the depression when there was no money to hustle. He was known to downplay his accomplishments letting his talent speak for its self. For example his high run in straight pool was documented at 281 balls. There was never a reason to sit and try to run balls with a room full of witnesses until Willie did it. some older players told me they seen my grandfather run hundreds when getting ready for a road trip. His best game (9 ball) we had an older gentleman whom was very respected in the area tell me that he watched my grandfather run twenty racks for $5 a game in the mid-fifties against a top flight NY player. If he was a card cheat he was still my grandfather.
 
freddy the beard said:
A variation of it today is called "Crack" Cocaine. Both freebase and crack are smoked. There is a difference. Think of crack as j*rking off to a dirty mag, and freebase as real sex with Jennifer Lopez.

The Beard
Click to expand...

Holy smokes.....no pun intended.

(I'm sorry I asked)
 
Ah the mystique of legendary roadmen...Good stuff Jay, Freddie--as per usual. (Freddie, I admire the ability to go public on past indiscretions. Big nuts, buddy!)
Those wanting to read up on Don Willis can find pretty good entries in the following: Hustler Days, by R.A. Dyer, Billiards, by John Grissim, and The Lions and the Lambs, by Thomas Fensch. This last is a pricey item online. I got it through inter-library loan.
 
A couple of thoughts at this point....
Over the years, I thought I heard every significant Don Willis story there was. Scott shared two (the dead horse / cow and the bet on the color of the next 5 cars coming around the corner) that were new and funny to me.
I appreciate the stories, anecdotes and tales of yore from all of those who contributed thus far. These are some fantastic accounts of a man who had to be, if not one in a million, at least one in several hundred thousand.
Just having the cleverness to come up with some of this stuff is impressive enough, let alone him having the "chutzpah" or "cajones" to pull it off.

That a man would spend that much time getting good at so many different things, and then be able to use these skills to his advantage for so long a period of time is almost incredulous to me. I think Willis was the last of that kind we'll ever see. He reminds me a lot of Alvin "Titanic" Thompson.
 
huckster said:
Everyone that has shown an interest in my grandfather. He was a fascinating man a pure hustler. He is what drew me to the game. A lot of the stories make him out to almost be a folk hero. Imagine the road team of him and Titanic Thompson. He was adverse to getting his picture took and that was his thing he would roll into town snap off all the locals in the pool room, be the big winner in the backroom card games and leave with his pockets flush. He paid for his home, a new car every three years, set his children up with nest eggs, all with his gambling ability. He never cared if he was known as the best pool player alive he just wanted to support his family the way he knew how. I understand Mr. Fels you are a noted historian and I enjoy your work, but sometimes you say things that leave a little sting. For example the time you wrote about Minnesota Fats, you said you would not legitimize him by refering to him by that moniker. Well he earned it Sir. Without the fat man (whom my grandfather thought of as a friend) the pool world would not have a lot of baby boomers that fell for our wonderful game. My grandfather thought Fat's was a stand-up guy always there to help out kids and an animal lover that took in stray dogs and cats (Fats once lived in a very nice hotel with over 30 cats that he and the staff would feed and take care of). You refer to my grandfather as a card cheat. Did you ever observe him cheat? Did you know anyone who caught him cheating? It is not something I want said about a man I respect unless you have proof to back up that slanderous claim. He came up during the depression when there was no money to hustle. He was known to downplay his accomplishments letting his talent speak for its self. For example his high run in straight pool was documented at 281 balls. There was never a reason to sit and try to run balls with a room full of witnesses until Willie did it. some older players told me they seen my grandfather run hundreds when getting ready for a road trip. His best game (9 ball) we had an older gentleman whom was very respected in the area tell me that he watched my grandfather run twenty racks for $5 a game in the mid-fifties against a top flight NY player. If he was a card cheat he was still my grandfather.
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huckster,
I won't pretend to speak for George Fels, he's very capable if he so desires. But I didn't take his comments as trying to disparage or besmirch your grandfathers memory. I took it as him trying to get thru some of the hyperbole. And anyway, every great person in history has had his or her share of detractors. Your grandpap was an icon in the pool world. You should be very proud of him.
 
Thanks for the stories and the article link. This part of the article I thought was pretty good:

Don had 13 grandchildren and 33 great grandchildren. He was once quoted to tell a newspaper reporter: "I guess if you had to sum it up, you could say that I?d rather play Joe Blow for $7, than the World?s Champion for nothing." "That sounds pretty good. Yeh, that?s it. I?d rather play anyone for $7 than the World?s Champion for the fun of it."
 
I'm sure men like Willis were superb with the money on the line, the testimonials of past greats speak volumes.

But I'll never believe that he was ever capable of winning a world championship tournament regardless of the reasons given for abstaining from them.

There have always been hustler type players who won legit championships, from Greenleaf, to Lassiter, to Reyes.

Since the money was so thin in the tourneys, it could be argued that those conditions presented even more pressure and an even greater challenge, but that's neither here nor there.

I've read accounts of old time ball players throwing balls on a line 400+ feet on a line (Hank Aaaron's bio if I'm not mistaken) and guys punting footballs 125+ yards, thing that simply cannot be done

Stuff just gets exaggerated over time, we know this.

What we don't know is whether or not a guy like Willis would have dominated a pro world caliber tourney the way he did the back rooms,

I submit that he would not
 
Scott Lee said:
Jim...Thanks for posting that link. Dick emailed it to me several years ago, and I printed it out to send to Jack White. Hadn't read it in a long long time. What a facinating man!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Scott, Jack White is still alive? Amazing! How old is he?
 
John Stravinsky said:
Ah the mystique of legendary roadmen...Good stuff Jay, Freddie--as per usual. (Freddie, I admire the ability to go public on past indiscretions. Big nuts, buddy!)
Those wanting to read up on Don Willis can find pretty good entries in the following: Hustler Days, by R.A. Dyer, Billiards, by John Grissim, and The Lions and the Lambs, by Thomas Fensch. This last is a pricey item online. I got it through inter-library loan.
Click to expand...

Stravinsky, what are you doing here. Did you make a wrong turn somewhere? In case you all didn't know, this is one of the most talented writers to ever cover Pool (and other forms of gambling). And he plays a mean game of Banks as well. You got a ball dude!
 
smashmouth said:
I'm sure men like Willis were superb with the money on the line, the testimonials of past greats speak volumes.

But I'll never believe that he was ever capable of winning a world championship tournament regardless of the reasons given for abstaining from them.

There have always been hustler type players who won legit championships, from Greenleaf, to Lassiter, to Reyes.

Since the money was so thin in the tourneys, it could be argued that those conditions presented even more pressure and an even greater challenge, but that's neither here nor there.

I've read accounts of old time ball players throwing balls on a line 400+ feet on a line (Hank Aaaron's bio if I'm not mistaken) and guys punting footballs 125+ yards, thing that simply cannot be done

Stuff just gets exaggerated over time, we know this.

What we don't know is whether or not a guy like Willis would have dominated a pro world caliber tourney the way he did the back rooms,

I submit that he would not
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. The last thing Don needed was a diet of Mosconi, Caras and Crane. He would have trouble winning in a field with all the 14.1 greats. He might only finish in the top four or five. That would earn him enough money to get out of town, and enough notoriety to kill all his action.
I wonder why he didn't play too. DUH!!!!!

By the way, if ANY of these "Champions" wanted to gamble with Don at 14.1, I suspect the windows would have been open, Mosconi included.
 
huckster said:
Everyone that has shown an interest in my grandfather. He was a fascinating man a pure hustler. He is what drew me to the game. A lot of the stories make him out to almost be a folk hero. Imagine the road team of him and Titanic Thompson. He was adverse to getting his picture took and that was his thing he would roll into town snap off all the locals in the pool room, be the big winner in the backroom card games and leave with his pockets flush. He paid for his home, a new car every three years, set his children up with nest eggs, all with his gambling ability. He never cared if he was known as the best pool player alive he just wanted to support his family the way he knew how. I understand Mr. Fels you are a noted historian and I enjoy your work, but sometimes you say things that leave a little sting. For example the time you wrote about Minnesota Fats, you said you would not legitimize him by refering to him by that moniker. Well he earned it Sir. Without the fat man (whom my grandfather thought of as a friend) the pool world would not have a lot of baby boomers that fell for our wonderful game. My grandfather thought Fat's was a stand-up guy always there to help out kids and an animal lover that took in stray dogs and cats (Fats once lived in a very nice hotel with over 30 cats that he and the staff would feed and take care of). You refer to my grandfather as a card cheat. Did you ever observe him cheat? Did you know anyone who caught him cheating? It is not something I want said about a man I respect unless you have proof to back up that slanderous claim. He came up during the depression when there was no money to hustle. He was known to downplay his accomplishments letting his talent speak for its self. For example his high run in straight pool was documented at 281 balls. There was never a reason to sit and try to run balls with a room full of witnesses until Willie did it. some older players told me they seen my grandfather run hundreds when getting ready for a road trip. His best game (9 ball) we had an older gentleman whom was very respected in the area tell me that he watched my grandfather run twenty racks for $5 a game in the mid-fifties against a top flight NY player. If he was a card cheat he was still my grandfather.
Click to expand...


I knew your grandpa during the 60's and 70's. A few things he was not, were a braggart and a cheat. He didn't need to brag about his accomplishments and he didn't need to cheat to win. He was supposedly a gifted Gin Rummy player (as well as Hearts and Cribbage), but I never saw him play. If he knew about cheating, it may have been to protect himself. Card mechanics were common back then.

What he was, was a very intelligent man, who used his gifts to make a good living in a tough era. Anyone who could consistently beat the Vegas books had to be double smart. He would study the college basketball teams and knew all about the small schools (his specialty). Pro baseball was a lock for him. He knew all the pitchers (some personally) and how they fared against certain teams. He knew this when such statisitics were not being recorded.

What I remember about him, was that people listened when he talked. They knew they might learn something. Too bad Danny D. can't get on here. He knew Don well, way better than me.
 
jay helfert said:
I totally agree with you. The last thing Don needed was a diet of Mosconi, Caras and Crane. He would have trouble winning in a field with all the 14.1 greats. He might only finish in the top four or five. That would earn him enough money to get out of town, and enough notoriety to kill all his action.
I wonder why he didn't play too. DUH!!!!!

By the way, if ANY of these "Champions" wanted to gamble with Don at 14.1, I suspect the windows would have been open, Mosconi included.
Click to expand...


you've missed the point entirely,

furthermore, since you make mention of Mosconi, he maintained an open challenge his entire career, now as the reigning world champ for over a decade, i would suggest that the onus would have been on everyone else to initiate a challenge

by your rationale, a terrific unknown golf hustler could claim superiority over Tiger Woods simply because Tiger never sought him out
 
smashmouth said:
you've missed the point entirely,

furthermore, since you make mention of Mosconi, he maintained an open challenge his entire career, now as the reigning world champ for over a decade, i would suggest that the onus would have been on everyone else to initiate a challenge

by your rationale, a terrific unknown golf hustler could claim superiority over Tiger Woods simply because Tiger never sought him out
Click to expand...

I don't know any of these guys personally but I think if you read the stories of Don Willis, it's clear he had a plan. He was out to make money to raise his family. He was not looking for ANY notoriety. While I would agree that this is rare (most of us have egos and crave the attention) it appears he realized what fame could do to his "career", so he avoided it.

I'm sure there are some exagerated stories out there (that's just what happens over time) but it's pretty clear from the shear number of stories surrounding this man that he was a superior tallent that managed to get the most out of his abilities.

I doubt someone with similar tallents could pull it off in this day and age though, who knows maybe I'm wrong about that.
 
The Fat Man

smashmouth said:
you've missed the point entirely,

furthermore, since you make mention of Mosconi, he maintained an open challenge his entire career, now as the reigning world champ for over a decade, i would suggest that the onus would have been on everyone else to initiate a challenge

by your rationale, a terrific unknown golf hustler could claim superiority over Tiger Woods simply because Tiger never sought him out
Click to expand...

Now that you mention it, there was somebody just like that. His name was Marty Stanovich and he was from Gary, In. His nickname was "The Fat Man" and he dominated the top pro golfers in gambling for 20 years. His era was the 30s and 40s, times when golf tournaments paid little prize money. He didn't play in the tournaments, but he would hustle the winners for their prize cheese afterwards. He beat every human playing golf for the big money. I met the man in the early 60s. He put a coffee butt can up in the corner of the pool room and bet even money he could chip the ball into the can in one try from about 30 feet away. Betting he couldnt do it was a bad idea. He was Bobby Riggs' hero and kept Bobby broke at one thing or another. He was golf's version of Don Willis. Few people besides his victims had any idea who he was. If anybody could add to The Fat Man's legend, I would appreciate it. I hold little hope of that since everbody he used to play is dead and all stories would have to be secondhand. I was just a kid when I met him.

The Beard
 
NEVER bet against "The Beard"

freddy the beard said:
Now that you mention it, there was somebody just like that. His name was Marty Stanovich and he was from Gary, In. His nickname was "The Fat Man" and he dominated the top pro golfers in gambling for 20 years. His era was the 30s and 40s, times when golf tournaments paid little prize money. He didn't play in the tournaments, but he would hustle the winners for their prize cheese afterwards. He beat every human playing golf for the big money. I met the man in the early 60s. He put a coffee butt can up in the corner of the pool room and bet even money he could chip the ball into the can in one try from about 30 feet away. Betting he couldnt do it was a bad idea. He was Bobby Riggs' hero and kept Bobby broke at one thing or another. He was golf's version of Don Willis. Few people besides his victims had any idea who he was. If anybody could add to The Fat Man's legend, I would appreciate it. I hold little hope of that since everbody he used to play is dead and all stories would have to be secondhand. I was just a kid when I met him.

The Beard
Click to expand...


Freddy,
Here's a link to validate what you already said...
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/2005/4/2005_4_58.shtml
 
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