question on rules

[oldplayer]

i was in my 10 ball match last night with maybe 80 guys playing. each table had a referee. i was watching a match and the player at the table was down to the 9 and 10 and because of the layout, he would have to miscue not to make them. just before he fired at the 9 ball, the other player made a motion with his hands as if he were unscrewing his cue stick. the referee saw this and "assumed" the player was conceding the match and awarded the game to the player at the table. of course, all hell broke lose and there was a 20 minute delay while heated arguments proliferated, everyone having an opinion. the copy of rules they had did not address this issue. they ultimately ruled to replay the game. what is the rule on this, was the referee right or wrong? (i am still in the hunt and return weds night)

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

sharking

i was in my 10 ball match last night with maybe 80 guys playing. each table had a referee. i was watching a match and the player at the table was down to the 9 and 10 and because of the layout, he would have to miscue not to make them. just before he fired at the 9 ball, the other player made a motion with his hands as if he were unscrewing his cue stick. the referee saw this and "assumed" the player was conceding the match and awarded the game to the player at the table. of course, all hell broke lose and there was a 20 minute delay while heated arguments proliferated, everyone having an opinion. the copy of rules they had did not address this issue. they ultimately ruled to replay the game. what is the rule on this, was the referee right or wrong? (i am still in the hunt and return weds night)

Breaking your stick down can be a form of sharking and therefore is conceding in most pool circles. Most tourneys have a players meeting before starting and this should be addressed at that time.

 

[West Point 1987]

Breaking down you cue during your opponent's shot IS a shark move, regardless of the rules. I'm surprised the rules on hand didn't address this, but the players' meeting should have. Every tournament over the past 25 years I've ever played in from local barbox to regional tour has addressed this, tournament director should have in your case. I bet they will from now on! Seriously, the referee should have stuck to his guns on it and called it sharking. If the opponent wasn't sharking, he had assumed he'd lost since he was breaking down the cue, so what's the debate about? If he would have claimed to be changing shafts, good sportsmanship dictates he would let his opponent know in advance (between innings), not when the other guy's down over a shot. If he'd thrown a handtowel on the table in the middle of the shot and the other guy missed, would he claim he wasn't forfeiting?

 

[ignomirello]

Consession & Sharking/unsportmanlike

Breaking down you cue during your opponent's shot IS a shark move, regardless of the rules. I'm surprised the rules on hand didn't address this, but the players' meeting should have. Every tournament over the past 25 years I've ever played in from local barbox to regional tour has addressed this, tournament director should have in your case. I bet they will from now on! Seriously, the referee should have stuck to his guns on it and called it sharking. If the opponent wasn't sharking, he had assumed he'd lost since he was breaking down the cue, so what's the debate about?

DITO!!! It is either a Consession & or Sharking/unsportmanlike.

This behavior should not be tolerated!

 

[Bob Jewett]

i was in my 10 ball match last night with maybe 80 guys playing. each table had a referee. i was watching a match and the player at the table was down to the 9 and 10 and because of the layout, he would have to miscue not to make them. just before he fired at the 9 ball, the other player made a motion with his hands as if he were unscrewing his cue stick. the referee saw this and "assumed" the player was conceding the match and awarded the game to the player at the table. of course, all hell broke lose and there was a 20 minute delay while heated arguments proliferated, everyone having an opinion. the copy of rules they had did not address this issue. they ultimately ruled to replay the game. what is the rule on this, was the referee right or wrong? (i am still in the hunt and return weds night)

I assume you were playing by the official World Standardized Rules. Those are available on the WPA website at www.wpa-pool.com. Here is the applicable rule:

1.11 Concession
If a player concedes, he loses the match. For example, if a player unscrews his jointed playing cue stick while the opponent is at the table and during the opponent’s decisive rack of a match, it will be considered a concession of the match.​

It is apparently a good idea to carry a copy of these -- and to have read them -- in case the referee is not well prepared.

 

[Pushout]

i was in my 10 ball match last night with maybe 80 guys playing. each table had a referee. i was watching a match and the player at the table was down to the 9 and 10 and because of the layout, he would have to miscue not to make them. just before he fired at the 9 ball, the other player made a motion with his hands as if he were unscrewing his cue stick. the referee saw this and "assumed" the player was conceding the match and awarded the game to the player at the table. of course, all hell broke lose and there was a 20 minute delay while heated arguments proliferated, everyone having an opinion. the copy of rules they had did not address this issue. they ultimately ruled to replay the game. what is the rule on this, was the referee right or wrong? (i am still in the hunt and return weds night)

You say: "he made a motion with his hands". Were his hands on the cue when he did this? If he did not actually unscrew his cue this rule might not apply. I've never approved of the rule myself but, for some reason, most do these days.

 

[thintowin]

Once a player wanted to fight me because I continued a run out after he started unscrewing his stick. Personally I never took anything for granted and when I played I could care less what my opponent was doing with his stick or any other sharking methods so I continued shooting unless an overt move was made by my opponent such as placing their stick on the table or touch the balls on the table or something concrete.

I believe a players concentration should be greater than noticing what my opponent is doing with his cue. This should have never went to the referee; the player should have continued with his run.

 

[hang-the-9]

If anyone I'm playing starts to move around, stand up, move his stick around, etc.. when I'm on the last shot, I stop and ask if he's giving me the game. 90% of the time, they sit their ass back down and wait for me to shoot.

In this case there is a ref that calls the rules. The rule clearly states that even a suggestion that the player concedes the game is made, that player loses the game.

 

[pulzcul]

Should be no difference between breaking your cue down and acting like your breaking it down. Forfeit. The intentional side of sharking your opponent carries its own "smell". It will come back on him.

 

[oldplayer]

it seems to be more or less unanimous....i will pass this on to the committee persons tomorrow night! fortunately the "player" won the next game, so for now, the right side won! thanks to everyone for the help. this was my impression to start with and also the fact that the ref should have NEVER backed down, even with the heated argument going on in his face! a ruling is a ruling! :angry:

 

[ignomirello]

Motion is a key word !

You say: "he made a motion with his hands". Were his hands on the cue when he did this? If he did not actually unscrew his cue this rule might not apply. I've never approved of the rule myself but, for some reason, most do these days.

Would it be fair to YOU if you were shooting & your opponet made a motion & it drew your attention away from the shot?

 

[Pushout]

Would it be fair to YOU if you were shooting & your opponet made a motion & it drew your attention away from the shot?

If my attention span wasn't good enough to ignore this, I deserve to lose. And, it's been done to me and I ignored it. Play for money enough and you learn to ignore the crap people pull. It's no different than someone walking in front of you when you were down and about to pull the trigger. Ever seen that enforced? I'll bet not. I don't complain about the rule being enforced but I don't really see any reason for it.

 

[tucson9ball]

i was in my 10 ball match last night with maybe 80 guys playing. each table had a referee. i was watching a match and the player at the table was down to the 9 and 10 and because of the layout, he would have to miscue not to make them. just before he fired at the 9 ball, the other player made a motion with his hands as if he were unscrewing his cue stick. the referee saw this and "assumed" the player was conceding the match and awarded the game to the player at the table. of course, all hell broke lose and there was a 20 minute delay while heated arguments proliferated, everyone having an opinion. the copy of rules they had did not address this issue. they ultimately ruled to replay the game. what is the rule on this, was the referee right or wrong? (i am still in the hunt and return weds night)

Usually this is covered before the tourney, the director goes through a quick Shpeal explaining the rules.

Plus, just common sense, why would you unscrew a cue if you plan on shooting again? Unscrewing usually means you are done playing.

 

[master9baller]

i was in my 10 ball match last night with maybe 80 guys playing. each table had a referee. i was watching a match and the player at the table was down to the 9 and 10 and because of the layout, he would have to miscue not to make them. just before he fired at the 9 ball, the other player made a motion with his hands as if he were unscrewing his cue stick. the referee saw this and "assumed" the player was conceding the match and awarded the game to the player at the table. of course, all hell broke lose and there was a 20 minute delay while heated arguments proliferated, everyone having an opinion. the copy of rules they had did not address this issue. they ultimately ruled to replay the game. what is the rule on this, was the referee right or wrong? (i am still in the hunt and return weds night)

Total sharking and loss of game. If the ref made a call he should have stuck with it.

Why not have the player play out the last 2 balls on the table? IDK why he had to start a new rack?

In the end it was the ref who sharked the player here.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I agree, unscrewing or motioning so is a concession. But in any event there was a ref presiding and he declared the match was over.

For sure the way it unfolded someone screwed up and it sounds like the ref. And not so much for reversing his decision (let's say the guy really wasn't conceding) but for the ensuing remedy to the problem. Even if the player occupying the chair claimed he wasn't conceding and the ref believed him, the remedy should have been to continue the rack, not re-rack. So why wasn't the rack simply continued, were the balls disturbed? Then the question becomes who disturbed the balls? At a minimum if it was the ref or the guy in the chair that disturbed the balls then they should have been replaced to the best of the ref's ability so the rack could continue. Even if it was the shooter, that would be understandable since the ref had declared the match over; he didn't do anything wrong. No way the shooter should have been penalized with a re-rack in this situation. Similarly, even if the other guy really was not conceding and had not actually motioned unscrewing, he shouldn't be rewarded with a re-rack. At worst the balls should have been restored and play continued.

 

[bullshot]

I had a similar experience about a year ago. I was playing 9 ball against a guy that wasn't very good in a short race. When i was on the hill down to three balls left the guy started making an unscrewing motion right in front of my sight while i was down on the shot. I got up and asked if he was conceding and he said no. He didn't actually unscrew his stick he was just making the motion to shark me.

Needless to say i was pretty pissed about his blatant shark attempt, so I went and got a drink to cool down and ended up finishing the run no problem. The point is that people that are too lazy to put in the hard work to get better often times try to use cheap tricks to bring you down to a more even level.

 

[cigardave]

I had a similar experience about a year ago. I was playing 9 ball against a guy that wasn't very good in a short race. When i was on the hill down to three balls left the guy started making an unscrewing motion right in front of my sight while i was down on the shot. I got up and asked if he was conceding and he said no. He didn't actually unscrew his stick he was just making the motion to shark me.

Needless to say i was pretty pissed about his blatant shark attempt, so I went and got a drink to cool down and ended up finishing the run no problem. The point is that people that are too lazy to put in the hard work to get better often times try to use cheap tricks to bring you down to a more even level.

Based on your description that was blatant sharking.

Instead of asking if he was conceding, my approach would be to state something like...

"Unscrewing your cue during the match is conceding. Even if you did not intent to concede, that was blatant sharking and unsportsmanlike. As a result of either, you just lost the match. If you feel differently, go get the TD and plead your case to him."

 

[master9baller]

Sharking

I had a situation about 3 weeks back, playing a solid A player in a tournament where we were both on the hill. He's got the table with 4 balls to go, an easy out. He leaves himself long on the 9 ball and it looked like it was over.

He missed the ball and left me something I will make 98 out of 100 times, the 9 ball about midway down the end rail about an inch off. The CB is on the long rail about a foot from that end rail, maybe a 25 degree cut.

I was expecting it to be conceded as we often do. He didn't. I get down to shoot and I hear him playing with his car keys behind me and think to myself "WTF??". I'm now down on the shot and considering what a jerk move that is. Then I shoot the ball just slightly into the end rail enough that it hangs on a tight 4.5 inch pocket.

So whose fault is that? MINE. It doesn't matter what he was doing, or that I wouldn't do it to him. I allowed whatever he did to enter my mind enough that the sharking was sucessful. The hardest thing to do is get up off a shot that you are competely ready to shoot. This time it cost me a trip to the finals of a weekly tournament, no big deal. I will remember what happened next time and that will be payment enough.

 

[cigardave]

I was expecting it to be conceded as we often do. He didn't.

That's exactly why I won't play "conceding the last shot". I don't want my mind to wonder/wander thinking if my opponent is going to concede or not.

It can end up a mind game.... like... you conceded that shot last time... why not this time?... or I conceded you the same shot and now you won't concede that same shot for me. WTF?

Shoot each game all the way out... no conceding.

 

[Pushout]

I had a situation about 3 weeks back, playing a solid A player in a tournament where we were both on the hill. He's got the table with 4 balls to go, an easy out. He leaves himself long on the 9 ball and it looked like it was over.

He missed the ball and left me something I will make 98 out of 100 times, the 9 ball about midway down the end rail about an inch off. The CB is on the long rail about a foot from that end rail, maybe a 25 degree cut.

I was expecting it to be conceded as we often do. He didn't. I get down to shoot and I hear him playing with his car keys behind me and think to myself "WTF??". I'm now down on the shot and considering what a jerk move that is. Then I shoot the ball just slightly into the end rail enough that it hangs on a tight 4.5 inch pocket.

So whose fault is that? MINE. It doesn't matter what he was doing, or that I wouldn't do it to him. I allowed whatever he did to enter my mind enough that the sharking was sucessful. The hardest thing to do is get up off a shot that you are competely ready to shoot. This time it cost me a trip to the finals of a weekly tournament, no big deal. I will remember what happened next time and that will be payment enough.

Good post! I try hard not to concede anything and don't expect anyone to do it for me, no matter the skill level of the person I'm playing. As I said in my previous post, if you play for money as long as some of us have, you see it all at one time or another. I've had much more subtle moves pulled on me that only worked that one time.