Questionable Cuemaker's Forum

iba7467

iba7467

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After reading a post from another AZer about a very negative experience with a cue maker, I have decided to post one of my own.

William Woodworth of Woodworth cues did a repair on an inexpensive but sentimental cue of mine that was over 20 years old. I needed a buttsleeve, as this one had cracked slightly over time. I paid him and delivered the cue at the Super Bowl Classic in Memphis a couple years ago. The cue was returned to me with a new buttsleeve as I asked. I also asked that the cue remain weighted and balanced the same as when it was given to him. The buttsleeve was not even smooth to the handle. I called Mr. Woodworth and informed him of my dissatisfaction.

He said there must have been a miscommunication, because he thought the buttsleeve was all I wanted. I was clear to him about all this and my desire to refinish the cue. Why would you add a buttsleeve for someone and not even true it. It was obvious that I would have to have additional cuework done. Mr. Woodworth seemed hesitant to complete the repair and offered no assistance in returning the cue.

After more than one conversation and his continued lack of desire to correct his own error, I took the cue to a local cuesmith and had it refinished. Now I have three times the value of the cue invested and the weight and balance is still not correct.

I apologize for venting, but was inspired by the other post and felt others might like to know.
 
As an update, the cue is still in storage as it may have been test hit once since.
 
There's possibly more to this story than what we're hearing, like the other half. I know Woody to be a great guy and an incredible builder. I'll reserve opinion until we hear his side.
 
KJ Cues said:
There's possibly more to this story than what we're hearing, like the other half. I know Woody to be a great guy and an incredible builder. I'll reserve opinion until we hear his side.
Click to expand...

I don't know him so I can't comment on your second sentence, but I whole heartedly agree with the first and last sentences of your post.

Not knocking iba7467's post as being non-factual, it's just nice to be able to hear both sides.
 
I think that just the fact that the Man felt the need to share his experience speaks volumes. I am interested in hearing the other side as well.
 
Irish634 said:
I don't know him so I can't comment on your second sentence, but I whole heartedly agree with the first and last sentences of your post.

Not knocking iba7467's post as being non-factual, it's just nice to be able to hear both sides.
Click to expand...

There is usually at least 5 sides to any story--Yours,Mine,The Neighbors,The Police and the Truth !!!

If I am involved there could be more
 
as an investigator

for a law firm that handles accidents and incidents I usally tell people there are several sides, what YOU say happened, what THEY say happened, what each witness SAW happen, what ACTUALLY happened, and what can be PROVED to have happened, and some days, none of the above are the same.:eek:
 
> I posted this a good while ago about his repairs,but I wasn't going to bring his name up.




> At a tournament this past weekend in Memphis,I had my first bad experience in a LONG time. I do all my own repairs normally,unless I'm at a tournament and don't have my equipment available. My favorite shaft had a tip on it that was 2 years old and had never had any problems with it,until it started making noise and would not grab the ball regardless of how I scuffed or chalked it. I knew something had to be done,because I was waiting to play a match. I looked at it very carefully and KNEW it wasn't loose,the tip wasn't coming apart,and still have no clue what caused it. I had the guy that was working the tournament install a new Sumo,same thing I installed on it 2 years ago with great results. I stood and watched him,just like I normally do. This guy has been pretty free with helpful info and ideas,and had no problems until now. He finishes the tip,and just hands the shaft back to me and says it will be 15 bucks,without even removing the excess glue,scratches,and reddish coating from the tip from my ivory ferrule,not to mention the deep dents caused by his collet. I asked him if he was going to clean it up,and he said that will be another 10 bucks. I made damn sure he saw me roll my eyes and told him to go ahead,since the shaft was unplayable as it was,at this point I was getting REALLY hot. His method of cleaning the shaft was a sopping wet green Scotch-Brite pad,along with what looked like 1/2 CUP of water,he dried it with a leather burnisher,hit it with 400,and without sanding it out any further,applies a really heavy coat of horribly thick,sticky sealer. While the sealer is drying,he takes a fresh razor blade,and proceeds to dig into the tip until it looked like it had been burnished with those crappy Ultimate Tip Tools or those plastic burnishers that look like a joint protector. I can clearly hear the chatter of the blade on the ivory,and start looking for something to break over his head,I am 100% serious when I say I wanted to fight him at this point. He barely sands the ferrule with 400,burnishes the tip with the leather again,and asks me if I want to use my wax on the shaft or his,I said neither until you thin this sealer out some. Out comes the 400 again,still ignoring the clearly visible glue on the ferrule,and at this point I decided this was the time to cut my losses and accept it as is,before it got worse. My previously pristine ivory ferrule will SURELY have to be replaced,after looking at it under a jewelers loupe,the chatter marks and gouges cannot be fixed except with radical sanding,the shaft feels like you spilled Coke on it,and I'm 25 bucks stuck for the effort. I feel RAPED,and still want to fight him. I made it a point to bring this to him privately,as he seems like the type to get ignorant if his methods,workmanship or ethics are questioned with other people within earshot. I pulled him off to the side and said "look,maybe this is just a case of you being tired or something,but this shaft you worked on for me is unaccpetable,how do you want to handle it?" He said "it's already been handled,the work is done,I can't be expected to please everyone". I walked off rather than pursue it any further,I only told about 50 people over the remainder of the weekend about it,most of which said this was NOT the first time they had heard about marginal work from him,and made sure everyone I told saw exactly what I meant. I also showed everyone who's opinions mattered the ivory ferrule I installed on vivalaraza's shaft,100% of the people polled said it was FLAWLESS. Even this professional repairman,who's opinion I previously respected said it looked like it was installed by Schon,so I KNOW my workmanship is on par with his. By the way,this was only my 2nd ivory ferrule. The majority of the people that saw the ones I've done have urged me to make every effort to work this particular tournament next year,their support will be rewarded by me trying to do exactly that. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
> I posted this a good while ago about his repairs,but I wasn't going to bring his name up.




> At a tournament this past weekend in Memphis,I had my first bad experience in a LONG time. I do all my own repairs normally,unless I'm at a tournament and don't have my equipment available. My favorite shaft had a tip on it that was 2 years old and had never had any problems with it,until it started making noise and would not grab the ball regardless of how I scuffed or chalked it. I knew something had to be done,because I was waiting to play a match. I looked at it very carefully and KNEW it wasn't loose,the tip wasn't coming apart,and still have no clue what caused it. I had the guy that was working the tournament install a new Sumo,same thing I installed on it 2 years ago with great results. I stood and watched him,just like I normally do. This guy has been pretty free with helpful info and ideas,and had no problems until now. He finishes the tip,and just hands the shaft back to me and says it will be 15 bucks,without even removing the excess glue,scratches,and reddish coating from the tip from my ivory ferrule,not to mention the deep dents caused by his collet. I asked him if he was going to clean it up,and he said that will be another 10 bucks. I made damn sure he saw me roll my eyes and told him to go ahead,since the shaft was unplayable as it was,at this point I was getting REALLY hot. His method of cleaning the shaft was a sopping wet green Scotch-Brite pad,along with what looked like 1/2 CUP of water,he dried it with a leather burnisher,hit it with 400,and without sanding it out any further,applies a really heavy coat of horribly thick,sticky sealer. While the sealer is drying,he takes a fresh razor blade,and proceeds to dig into the tip until it looked like it had been burnished with those crappy Ultimate Tip Tools or those plastic burnishers that look like a joint protector. I can clearly hear the chatter of the blade on the ivory,and start looking for something to break over his head,I am 100% serious when I say I wanted to fight him at this point. He barely sands the ferrule with 400,burnishes the tip with the leather again,and asks me if I want to use my wax on the shaft or his,I said neither until you thin this sealer out some. Out comes the 400 again,still ignoring the clearly visible glue on the ferrule,and at this point I decided this was the time to cut my losses and accept it as is,before it got worse. My previously pristine ivory ferrule will SURELY have to be replaced,after looking at it under a jewelers loupe,the chatter marks and gouges cannot be fixed except with radical sanding,the shaft feels like you spilled Coke on it,and I'm 25 bucks stuck for the effort. I feel RAPED,and still want to fight him. I made it a point to bring this to him privately,as he seems like the type to get ignorant if his methods,workmanship or ethics are questioned with other people within earshot. I pulled him off to the side and said "look,maybe this is just a case of you being tired or something,but this shaft you worked on for me is unaccpetable,how do you want to handle it?" He said "it's already been handled,the work is done,I can't be expected to please everyone". I walked off rather than pursue it any further,I only told about 50 people over the remainder of the weekend about it,most of which said this was NOT the first time they had heard about marginal work from him,and made sure everyone I told saw exactly what I meant. I also showed everyone who's opinions mattered the ivory ferrule I installed on vivalaraza's shaft,100% of the people polled said it was FLAWLESS. Even this professional repairman,who's opinion I previously respected said it looked like it was installed by Schon,so I KNOW my workmanship is on par with his. By the way,this was only my 2nd ivory ferrule. The majority of the people that saw the ones I've done have urged me to make every effort to work this particular tournament next year,their support will be rewarded by me trying to do exactly that. Tommy D.
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This may be a dumb question....but are you reffering to the Woodworth Cue guy?
 
I believe he is. I have a positive thing to say about him, though. I had a friend of mine take my cue to Memphis and get a new tenon(sp?) drilled, a new ferrule and a new tip. He did pretty decent work and the only bad thing I noticed was that the ferrule was not turned down perfectly flush with the shaft.
 
I wouldn't say it's decent work if it's not trimmed flush, that's crappy in my book. If I have someone work on my cue, I expect the job to be done right. That means perfect. I don't haggle cue repair guys about their prices, they charge what they do, and by not haggling them and excepting their prices, I expect to recieve top notch work. If it's not that way, I'll voice my opinion.
 
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Flawless

radge69 said:
If I have someone work on my cue, I expect the job to be done right. That means perfect. I don't haggle cue repair guys about their prices, they charge what they do, and by not haggling them and excepting their prices, I expect to recieve top notch work. If it's not that way, I'll voice my opinion.
Click to expand...

That's exactly how I feel, and why I posted this. It is only my side of the story, but I fully feel I am within my rights (and assisting others) to warn of the shoddy craftsmanship.
 
I recently had a big issue with a very well known cue builder. The lesson that I learned is that EVERYTHING must be put in writing, not just verbalized or discussed. My issue is resolved, thank god!!

This got me thinking about a comment I read recently on here. Many cue builders and buyers still just discuss an order, purchase or repair work and do not get anything in writing. I strongly feel that we should all start moving in the direction of getting everything in writing. I know I will from now on.

Regarding coming on here and voicing bad dealings, I think that both sides HAVE to be heard or its just not fair.

Just my .02 for the day!!

Russ......
 
An Opinion

I asked a cuemaker to refinish a prized 8 ivory point cue. The cue's original maker had passed away years earlier. I requested a different color wrap and the only other specific requirement I had was to protect the signature. I was clear...don't refinish this cue if you cannot preserve the cuemaker name. Several months later, I got my cue back with a new wrap, identical in color to my original wrap, and the signature was obliterated. The cuemaker made a feeble explanation about how the signature was lost and that the wrap color was truely the best for that type of cue. He had the balls to ask for full payment.

I've read several posts by angry players who need to vent about their bad experiences. I have to say that I feel uncomfortable reading these posts when they name the cuemaker and when they lead others to do the same.

I understand the frustration of being asked to pay for poor workmanship. I understand the anger that follows bad excuses for such workmanship. I also know about having high expectations let down. So why should I feel uncomfortable about a member venting to the forum? I hope you will read further.

I believe cuemakers tell us little about how truely difficult the job is. But most of them are not business men, memory wizzes, mind readers or even great typists. And I only know of one who is into rocket science. What they are in most cases are craftsmen at various levels of experience.

My cuemaker took the refinish order at a tournament verbally while he was working on a player's shaft. Yea, he had the balls to charge me all the money for a refinish...and I had the balls to assume he would get it right from memory...as if I were his only client. For guys like Madison Bob or Woody, I would enjoy hearing their stories about unreliable customers who change design ideas mid stream or who expect a house cue to become a magic work of art for $200. You know those "googans" who can't beat the three ghost but swear the only thing holding them back is a bad tip repair.

I don't mean to infer that the posters are bad customers, or anything less than respectful about expressing their feelings, but my own experience has taught me to work harder to generate a clear understanding with each cuemaker I work with. I have learned that some cuemakers are not ready to do work at the level I expect, and I have learned to cherish the reliable, detail oriented cuemaker who always seems to get it right.

Pete Ohman, Andy Gilbert, Joel Hercek...I admire these guys for making cues that look so flawless... I've seen a lot of cues from these cuemakers and they never seem to let anything leave the shop unless it is superb...but I assume that with such high standards, they have some very fancy inlaid handles on their screwdrivers at home.

Some cuemakers are starving artists and others put out less than perfect work to pay the bills. I've never met one that I thought was in it to get rich though, and very few ever do. I've learned to communicate clearly and to do my research about a cuemeker's abilities before taking a risk with my cue or my hopes. As for the guy who disappointed me, I take my business elsewhere. As for the guys who do it right, it's not hard to pass over the cash when the work is done. But no matter who it is or was, I have nothing but regrets for the names I have criticized publicly. The best revenge, in my opinion, is to move on and live well.

To those who read this post, thank you for letting me vent.
 
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Drawman623 said:
I asked a cuemaker to refinish a prized 8 ivory point cue. The cue's original maker had passed away years earlier. I requested a different color wrap and the only other specific requirement I had was to protect the signature. I was clear...don't refinish this cue if you cannot preserve the cuemaker name. Several months later, I got my cue back with a new wrap, identical in color to my original wrap, and the signature was obliterated. The cuemaker made a feeble explanation about how the signature was lost and that the wrap color was truely the best for that type of cue. He had the balls to ask for full payment.

I've read several posts by angry players who need to vent about their bad experiences. I have to say that I feel uncomfortable reading these posts when they name the cuemaker and when they lead others to do the same.

I understand the frustration of being asked to pay for poor workmanship. I understand the anger that follows bad excuses for such workmanship. I also know about having high expectations let down. So why should I feel uncomfortable about a member venting to the forum? I hope you will read further.

I believe cuemakers tell us little about how truely difficult the job is. But most of them are not business men, memory wizzes, mind readers or even great typists. And I only know of one who is into rocket science. What they are in most cases are craftsmen at various levels of experience.

My cuemaker took the refinish order at a tournament verbally while he was working on a player's shaft. Yea, he had the balls to charge me all the money for a refinish...and I had the balls to assume he would get it right from memory...as if I were his only client. For guys like Madison Bob or Woody, I would enjoy hearing their stories about unreliable customers who change design ideas mid stream or who expect a house cue to become a magic work of art for $200. You know those "googans" who can't beat the three ghost but swear the only thing holding them back is a bad tip repair.

I don't mean to infer that the posters are bad customers, or anything less than respectful about expressing their feelings, but my own experience has taught me to work harder to generate a clear understanding with each cuemaker I work with. I have learned that some cuemakers are not ready to do work at the level I expect, and I have learned to cherish the reliable, detail oriented cuemaker who always seems to get it right.

Pete Ohman, Andy Gilbert, Joel Hercek...I admire these guys for making cues that look so flawless... I've seen a lot of cues from these cuemakers and they never seem to let anything leave the shop unless it is superb...but I assume that with such high standards, they have some very fancy inlaid handles on their screwdrivers at home.

Some cuemakers are starving artists and others put out less than perfect work to pay the bills. I've never met one that I thought was in it to get rich though, and very few ever do. I've learned to communicate clearly and to do my research about a cuemeker's abilities before taking a risk with my cue or my hopes. As for the guy who disappointed me, I take my business elsewhere. As for the guys who do it right, it's not hard to pass over the cash when the work is done. But no matter who it is or was, I have nothing but regrets for the names I have criticized publicly. The best revenge, in my opinion, is to move on and live well.

To those who read this post, thank you for letting me vent.
Click to expand...
TAP, TAP, TAP!

I usually don't add a quote of this size to my posts, but I agree with 99% of everything written and feel it was very well thought out.

One thing I would add is that too many players shop for cuemakers/cue repairmen by checking their price lists instead of checking their credentials.

I hope this works out for the original poster.

Gene
 
two sides to the story or not,,,, if the butt is not even with the grip, that's a cuemaker's mistake. that is not an issue of micommunication, it's just bad cue work.
 
bruin70 said:
two sides to the story or not,,,, if the butt is not even with the grip, that's a cuemaker's mistake. that is not an issue of micommunication, it's just bad cue work.
Click to expand...

This is completely how I felt about it. I totally agree to the need of getting these agreements in writing as was mentioned before, but I do not think that poor craftsmanship should be excused by the lack of appreciation for this art. You do not accept this in furniture, appliances, and certainly not... art. Why a pool cue? Maybe I should not have named the name
 
I have to disagree with those who have had bad and poor work done and then seem to want to protect the name of the cue maker or repairman. WHY? If you had poor work done at a car dealer would you not name the dealer? The only reason I see to try and protect the cue maker is b/c you want others to share in the misery you experienced. Misery loves company. This is stupid. Would you feel this way if a Dr. performed poorly with an operation on you or a dentist did bad work on your teeth and now you have to eat on only one side of your mouth?

Why not name the name. Piss poor work is piss poor work. It's just that simple. To defend these guys (who are in business, therefore business men) b/c YOU didn't write down your order is nuts. He should be writing your order and then go over it to make sure you're comminicating what you thought you said. Keep in mind that a lot of pool players communicate poorly also but they are the one's paying the bill so it behooves the business man to make sure things are communicated properly.

One more thing to think about. Suppose you hire a painter to paint your living room. You then tell him and show him the paint chip that you had chosen and you want him to paint the room that color. When you return home he has painted the room a different color and then proceeds to tell you that he thinks his color better matches your furniture. Then he presents you with the full bill and expects to be paid. Would you cover for him? Maybe he is dead right on his color BUT you chose the color NOT him.
 
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