Quote from Tony Robles on ABR

[larry732]

Scott you are right, but this league plays in a regular pool room. I am sure many of these older gentleman did some hustling in there time, but today there relaxed and enjoy not only playing but reminiscing and plenty of war stories. By the way I am also a BCA certified instructor and old time road player. And I find teaching is learning. Larry

 

[cleary]

Tony is my boy and he does a lot of great things for pool (especially in our area), but the game is what it is. People ask if he's a hustler because they're intrigued by it. It sparks their interest and that's a beautiful thing. The pool hustler is almost a mythical folk tail to the average person. Something they've heard about but never really seen, but trust me, they're intrigued by the whole idea.

But gambling will always be in pool. It's in the name!

"The word "pool" means a collective bet, or ante. Many non-billiard games, such as poker, involve a pool but it was to pocket billiards that the name became attached. The term "poolroom" now means a place where pool is played, but in the 19th century a poolroom was a betting parlor for horse racing. Pool tables were installed so patrons could pass time between races. The two became connected in the public mind, but the unsavory connotation of "poolroom" came from the betting that took place there, not from billiards."

 

[CJ Wiley]

Look how TV changed this image - they didn't try to say poker wasn't a gambling game

But gambling will always be in pool. It's in the name!

"The word "pool" means a collective bet, or ante. Many non-billiard games, such as poker, involve a pool but it was to pocket billiards that the name became attached. The term "poolroom" now means a place where pool is played, but in the 19th century a poolroom was a betting parlor for horse racing. Pool tables were installed so patrons could pass time between races. The two became connected in the public mind, but the unsavory connotation of "poolroom" came from the betting that took place there, not from billiards."

This is very true and there's something to be said about "dealing with reality" instead of trying to change it. Pool's a gambling game and it should be amplified (imo) not ignored.

When I was on the road gambling, poker players were looked at as "low lifes," and a solid notch below other gamblers......look how TV changed this image. They didn't try to say poker wasn't a gambling game, they personified the players and made them more visible, more personable, and more entertaining. This is a model we should copy asap.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I think this is a chicken & egg argument. Did the Hustler label pool as a gambler's game or did the gambling in pool create the material for The Hustler, ushering in a degenerate reputation that pool has been unable to shake?

I don't think it really matters. Unfortunately, Jerry's questions fail to take Tony down that path. He steered the interview in a different direction instead of asking Tony to elaborate. I'll elaborate for you.

Make no mistake of it, Tony Robles is not just a pro-caliber pool player. You can add league director, tournament director and instructor to his resume but that still doesn't fulfill everything he's done for this us, everything he's been involved with. Tony has been a name in this game for over 25 years. Over those years, you're talking about countless meetings with countless people entrenched in our sport or capable of making a great impact ON our sport. He knows politicians, he knows the sports channels, he knows the coca-colas and pepsis and camel cigarettes. He's not new to this game.

When you listen to him, you're not just listening to a guy who shoots a good game of pool. You're looking at someone who has actively been involved in trying to promote this game on every single imaginable level, who devotes every single day of his life to trying to build his business which coincides with promoting competitive pool and he's been doing this for decades.

Before you critique him, before you question his opinions, ask yourself a few questions. What have you done to promote pool and what obstacles have you encountered? How many people have you touched throughout the years in quest? If your answers are none, none and zero then keep your opinions to yourself and listen, perhaps ask him yourself to elaborate for you. He's a very nice guy who is amazingly undeterred in his ambitions and I'm 100% certain he'll be happy to tell you. Until then, either be with him or get out of his way.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This is very true and there's something to be said about "dealing with reality" instead of trying to change it. Pool's a gambling game and it should be amplified (imo) not ignored.

When I was on the road gambling, poker players were looked at as "low lifes," and a solid notch below other gamblers......look how TV changed this image. They didn't try to say poker wasn't a gambling game, they personified the players and made them more visible, more personable, and more entertaining. This is a model we should copy asap.

Poker's success is all about how they added the hand-probability on screen. The audience has the best view of the table available, they can see all the hole cards and know who the winner should be. What makes it fascinating to watch is seeing if the players can also figure it out. Airings are deliberately edited down to show hands that have elaborate bluffs, elimination hands and big classic showdowns (AK vs QQ) but what you're not watching is REAL poker. Real poker is slow and boring, even if you're playing.

Pool will never be poker because those odds don't exist in pool, not yet at least. If pool is ever to make the poker-leap, it has to find a way to relate to a non-playing audience. You have to do something that either gives them a god-like perspective (really, only available in something like poker) or offer them statistics that sound impressive.

 

[Mr. Bond]

On your statement about Tony, amen to that Jude.


By the way, just so that people understand the history a little better, as long as there have been pool and billiard players, there have been gamblers, and 'sharks', and hustlers. This is not a 20th century, 19th century or even 18th century issue, its a gaming issue, and always has been, and it is not exclusive to pool and billiards at all. Dice, cards, bowling, bocce, golf, boxing, dog fighting, cock fighting, horse and dog racing, you name it....they are all heavily gambled upon and always have been.

As was mentioned before, its not the pool playing that is the problem, its the unpleasant places, unpleasant people, and unpleasant or downright criminal activities related to the gambling that keep pool halls on the list of places to avoid. Which is the same reason that "hustlers" are looked down upon by the moral majority to this very day; because it is so closely tied to crime.

People, generally speaking, dont actually have an issue with most forms of legit "gambling", ie lottery, bingo, casino games, playing poker with their buddies over beer and pretzels, the Kentucky Derby, etc. But everyone takes issue with criminals, perceived or real, and thats why the term "hustler" or "shark" still makes certain people cringe and thats why certain towns will never allow pool halls within their city limits - its the PERCEIVED threat of having unregulated criminal activity that drives them to think the worst, and I'm pretty sure that this is what Tony was referring to with his statement about being looked upon as a hustler.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

On your statement about Tony, amen to that Jude.


By the way, just so that people understand the history a little better, as long as there have been pool and billiard players, there have been gamblers, and 'sharks', and hustlers. This is not a 20th century, 19th century or even 18th century issue, its a gaming issue, and always has been, and it is not exclusive to pool and billiards at all. Dice, cards, bowling, bocce, golf, boxing, dog fighting, cock fighting, horse and dog racing, you name it....they are all heavily gambled upon and always have been.

As was mentioned before, its not the pool playing that is the problem, its the unpleasant places, unpleasant people, and unpleasant or downright criminal activities related to the gambling that keep pool halls on the list of places to avoid. Which is the same reason that "hustlers" are looked down upon by the moral majority to this very day; because it is so closely tied to crime.

People, generally speaking, dont actually have an issue with most forms of legit "gambling", ie lottery, bingo, casino games, playing poker with their buddies over beer and pretzels, the Kentucky Derby, etc. But everyone takes issue with criminals, perceived or real, and thats why the term "hustler" or "shark" still makes certain people cringe and thats why certain towns will never allow pool halls within their city limits - its the PERCEIVED threat of having unregulated criminal activity that drives them to think the worst, and I'm pretty sure that this is what Tony was referring to with his statement about being looked upon as a hustler.

I think you're right. I think the United States has very conservative feelings about gambling. As well, it should be kept in mind that although pool players are always very fond of The Hustler, the rest of the world loves the movie for very different reasons. They love the acting, the cinematography, the love story, old New York. We're the only ones paying attention to the pool tables. Once you ask America to comment on that portion, the feelings quickly shift to stories about an uncle that blew away the family estate on a craps table.

It's odd, living in a country that is so big on freedom, how great we've gotten at restricting ourselves.

 

[Island Drive]

I think you're right. I think the United States has very conservative feelings about gambling. As well, it should be kept in mind that although pool players are always very fond of The Hustler, the rest of the world loves the movie for very different reasons. They love the acting, the cinematography, the love story, old New York. We're the only ones paying attention to the pool tables. Once you ask America to comment on that portion, the feelings quickly shift to stories about an uncle that blew away the family estate on a craps table.

It's odd, living in a country that is so big on freedom, how great we've gotten at restricting ourselves.

Unless ya got it figured out...go :scratchhead:

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Unless ya got it figured out...go :scratchhead:

I don't entire understand what you mean.

 

[itsfroze]

Boxing gets corp. sponsorship and it's rep. is way worse. Boxing being associated
with a criminal element and the under world is far worse than Pools rep.

So I just don't buy that because of the hustling history associated with Pool that is
the reason why Pool can't seem to get corp. sponsorship.

 

[one stroke]

Boxing gets corp. sponsorship and it's rep. is way worse. Boxing being associated
with a criminal element and the under world is far worse than Pools rep.

So I just don't buy that because of the hustling history associated with Pool that is
the reason why Pool can't seem to get corp. sponsorship.

It has nothing to do with hustling and every thing to do with the games appeal to a audience
I just dont see 100k sitting in the stands to see a pool match in fact 1k might be a hard trick to turn
I cant think of one sport or game pool could out perform in veiwership

1

 

[CJ Wiley]

Saying 'The Hustler' gave pool players a bad image is like saying 'The Godfather'....

I would agree, wholeheartedly to this...

"I believe that, as great a film as the "The Hustler" (Movie) is, that film literally took Pool back to the stone age, because everyone I've met from every walk of life when I'm giving instruction, asks me if I'm a 'Hustler'... And that's become a big burden for pool."

- Tony Robles on this week's American Billiard Radio Show! www.americanbilliardradio.com

Literally back to the stone age? .....maybe the "stoner age"

Saying 'The Hustler' gave pool players a bad image is like saying 'The Godfather' gave mobsters a bad image.....it's quite the contrary, movies like Good Fellows, Casino, and the hit TV SHOW 'The Sopranos' all glorified the mob and even made them into superstars......'The Color of Money' did the same thing for pool in the late 80s.

 

[Banks]

When I was just starting out in league, people would ask me if I'm a hustler.. bahaha. Yeah, like I could even run an open racked when I tried to! The thing is.. people love the stories. It would be like a henchman and people asking you what countries you worked in.. Somalia? Kosovo? More likely, they were just a bodyguard for some spoiled brat or celebrity or something. Most people, imho, don't know just how seedy some of the "hustlers" actually are. They love hearing a crazy story where you get out barely alive, with the money and the girl!

People want excitement, they want entertainment.. they don't want to hear about grandma raking in the cash in her weekly bridge game. Unless, of course, she's been laying it down really well in a new home and plans to take off the crotchity blue-haired lady that's been a thorn in everybody's side. I can spend a million a week at work in A/P, but if I mention the job, most responses are, "Oh." On the other hand, if I come up a hundred over the weekend, they'll want the details. The only thing that gets the imagination for my job is, "Hey, hook me up!" When you mention gambling on pool and cards, imaginations can really run wild.. and that's what people want.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Boxing gets corp. sponsorship and it's rep. is way worse. Boxing being associated
with a criminal element and the under world is far worse than Pools rep.

So I just don't buy that because of the hustling history associated with Pool that is
the reason why Pool can't seem to get corp. sponsorship.

I don't really buy that either....I myself was just making a reference to some of the reasons that players can't escape getting labeled as sharks or hustlers just because they play well. And, why some folks, and even whole communities automatically associate pool with criminal activity.

While the labels are obviously not desirable, professional pool and as you pointed out corporately sponsored pool could indeed thrive in spite of these issues if the infrastructure was in place and it was marketed effectively. But as we know already, it isnt. And during the fleeting moments that it was, someone, or several someone's, screwed it all up.

Unfortunately and ironically, it has been some of the exact same criminal elements that people associate with pool, or just outright greed, that has brought pro pool to its knees and kept it there all this time. Maybe "they" are right?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pro Pool is suffering purely by "default".

Boxing gets corp. sponsorship and it's rep. is way worse. Boxing being associated
with a criminal element and the under world is far worse than Pools rep.

So I just don't buy that because of the hustling history associated with Pool that is
the reason why Pool can't seem to get corp. sponsorship.

You are 100% correct. No corporations have even been approached with a business play from "pool".......Pro Pool is suffering purely by "default".