Radial Pin Joint

C

coochieman57

d57
Just received a New Custom. I'm not saying by who. The Radial Pin was the makers recommended joint. One of the very few things I did not call out or change..... Butt and shafts roll ok apart, but have a 1/2 to full credit card wobble in both shafts when together.

Before returning the cue I started to compare this joint to my other cues, none of which has a radial pin. My other cues are, Huebler, Schon, and Espiritu..all of these joints start to tighten before the butt and shaft meet.
And all are between 15 and thirty years old... The "New" radial pin joint cue still spins freely with a slight lose wobble right up until the two halves actually join.

1. I don't know if this is the way the joint is designed to work, or poor craftsmanship?

2. If this is by design, Why would anyone use it?

3. How hard is it for the joint to be
a. fixed?
b. changed to something else?

I really need your help with this....
 
Show a picture is the joint screw and the face of the cue.
Sometimes the alignment barrel sticks out and it throws off the
shafts.
It's a fine joint screw. It's as straight as any joint screw .
 
I'd start by saying that you might want to send it back to the cuemaker for repair. A flat faced radial pin joint should be tight. You should feel it tighten once you're getting close to the bottom of the pin. I would think that the other cues you mentioned would be opposite (schon, etc). Anything with a brass insert shouldn't tighten down until the shaft meets the face of joint. The big pins that go straight into the wood should be the opposite, and should tighten as the shaft turns. If you're having lift at the joint, it might be a facing issue, crooked pin install, etc. There are others here better qualified that can address that problem. Hope this helps.
 
Thanks
I can not post picks of the joint because it is already in the mail on its way back to the maker. the lift is not at the joint that I could tell. I noticed it farther down shafts, but only when joined to the butt or at least it was more noticeable when joined to the butt.
This cue definetly does not tighten at all prior to the two halves coming together. Is this workmanship?
 
coochieman57 said:
Thanks
I can not post picks of the joint because it is already in the mail on its way back to the maker. the lift is not at the joint that I could tell. I noticed it farther down shafts, but only when joined to the butt or at least it was more noticeable when joined to the butt.
This cue definetly does not tighten at all prior to the two halves coming together. Is this workmanship?
Click to expand...
The hole might be too big .
 
I'm not bashing on you or questioning your claims at all, but I think you're over reacting and the panic is unfounded. I know you expect the cue to be perfect but the reality is that most cues are not. 1/2 or full credit card thickness of wobble, or variance in light under the shaft, is peanuts. That can be attributed to many other things than bad craftsmanship. It could be joint pin installed a couple thou off center, shaft bore a couple thou too large, the shaft being slightly off center as it's shaved to size for matching the butt, etc. There are lots of things. It could even be the finish being thicker on one side than the other, where he sanded through the finish while polishing and recoated. Seriously, the tiniest bit off center at or behind the joint will compound in the shaft, making it show some variance. Doesn't mean bad craftsmanship and doesn't mean the cue isn't straight. A credit card thickness is nothing. And being that there is likely nothing wrong, it's doubtful that the cue maker can fix it.

As for the shafts fitting sloppy, it's likely because of the tap he used. There are two Radial taps. One is oversize & the other is under. If he has an oversize tap, then it'll have a loose fit. It could also be enough to allow the pin to settle off to one side when tightened, causing the slight runout you see. It's especially true if his driver pin fit loose, because it would allow for the shafts to be shaved off center to fit the butt. But the important thing is that the shaft lock down tightly. That's what matters. If the shaft tightens, then the cue is solid and will undoubtedly play just fine. Fitting tightly to the pin doesn't make the cue hit better. It simply makes things easier while building the cue, specifically to avoid the issue you are having. Not doing doesn't mean he didn't do a good job and the cue won't play just fine. It only means that the cue may have a slight bit more slop, and credit card thickness is indeed rather slight. I really do not see an issue. If I could demonstrate what I'm saying, it would make total sense. But I can't, so it's hard to explain it to a non-builder.
 
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Qbuilder...you make so much sense it is scary. There are lots of parts and pieces to a cue that go together to create a rather exquisite piece of craftsmanship. Length, diameter, and weight are commn primary aspect of concern, then add balance, tone,and cabling concentric. We are humans, trying to command wood, and variance will occur...but it is always important to look at the bigger picture.

I can't tell you how many times I had people bring me their equipment saying it is warped, when it was taper roll, maybe a bent pin, offset joint, or even issues with the clear coat.
 
coochieman57 said:
Just received a New Custom. I'm not saying by who. The Radial Pin was the makers recommended joint. One of the very few things I did not call out or change..... Butt and shafts roll ok apart, but have a 1/2 to full credit card wobble in both shafts when together.

Before returning the cue I started to compare this joint to my other cues, none of which has a radial pin. My other cues are, Huebler, Schon, and Espiritu..all of these joints start to tighten before the butt and shaft meet.
And all are between 15 and thirty years old... The "New" radial pin joint cue still spins freely with a slight lose wobble right up until the two halves actually join.

1. I don't know if this is the way the joint is designed to work, or poor craftsmanship?

2. If this is by design, Why would anyone use it?

3. How hard is it for the joint to be
a. fixed?
b. changed to something else?

I really need your help with this....
Click to expand...


Hi,

A good way to make an accessment is to do the following things.

1. Place the shaft in a spinning lathe between centers using a cup center at the tip.

If the center of the shaft is jumping the physical shaft geometry is bad.

2. Join the cue and put the butt on the rail of a pool table and roll it. If the joint bobs up and down there is doubtless a big problem.

3. Roll the cue on the table and watch the tip for jumping and look under the shaft and watch for the center of the shaft as you roll the cue.

Then break the joint a half turn and roll the cue on the table again.

4. Roll the shaft and the butt on the table individually to check straightness.



After doing these thing a cue maker can have a good idea what is going on.

Then he must mount the cue in the lathe and indicate the cue to zero. After this is done indicating the pin can be checked.

Once this is done a repair can be performed and there could be the following or combination of the following things below.

Canted pin

Bad facing

Taper roll from mis aligned shaft female thread or from improper taper turning causing center of shaft to ossilate (bounce in middle ) during tapering causing a pancake effect. Pancaking can also occur from over sanding a shaft.

Bad shaft - warped

Bad Butt - Warped.

Owner abuse.

As was posted, send the cue back and have the problem dealt with.

Unless the cue can be examined everything is speculative because there can be a combination of slight problems and errors going on.

It is up to the CM to make it right if there has not be any abuse.

Send it to the original maker. Once a repair guy touches the cue the original maker is off the hook to fix it forever. Some cue maker will not take the cue back to fix for free if it is not original buyer. Some do.

Good luck and hopefully it is not something too bad.

JMO.

Rick
 
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It's 1/32" wobble. Seriously, any attempt to correct that minute run out would greatly risk doing undue damage to the cue. Chucking it up to indicate to zero sounds awesome and technical when BSing on the forum, but let's see somebody actually do it in the shop without damaging the finish. Now what if the joint pin is slightly off center? You have to heat the pin to remove it, then re-machine and fit a new pin. Try doing that without damaging the finish. So the facing is slightly off? Ok. Reface everything & then see how flush the shaft mates to the butt. It won't. It'll need a refinish.

Point being, playing arm chair quarterback is easy. Doing the work is a different story. I wouldn't want to do it. Don't get me wrong, if it's grossly misaligned and terribly sloppy then yeah it needs reworked. But the builder thought it was good when he sent it out, and more than likely is feeling pressured to fix a cue that has nothing wrong with it. From the OP's descriptions, if accurate, there's nothing wrong with the cue. It's a risk to try redoing anything. The fix may result in something worse than original.

I'm humbly proud of the cue work I do, and I have no issue saying that I often send out cues that have slight wobble. Granted, your face has to be on the table watching for variations in the light shining under the shaft, or else you'd never know it. But I NEVER produce a perfect cue. Never have, never will. I would if I could but I can't. I'm not that good. I don't know anybody who is. If it happens to me, then it's an accident. I'm not that good, and it's because of the issues I spoke of in my previous post. If this were my cue, I would feel helpless because the buyer expects me to be better than I am actually capable of. We're talking at max a credit card thickness of roll. Exactly what needs fixed? Sounds pretty damned straight to me. 58" cone with at least two different tapers, one of which is a curved taper, at least 2 jointed areas, and only a credit card thickness of flaw over the entire length. Sounds to me like the guy did a quality, professional job. It sounds to me like the OP didn't like the loose fitting joint, which means he isn't happy, and any perceived issue beyond that will only further displease him, even if it's not really an issue at all. I sure wouldn't want to be the builder.
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

A good way to make an ASSESSMENT is to do the following things.

1. Place the shaft in a spinning lathe between centers using a cup center at the tip.

If the center of the shaft is jumping the physical shaft geometry is bad.

2. Join the cue and put the butt on the rail of a pool table and roll it. If the joint bobs up and down there is doubtless a big problem.

3. Roll the cue on the table and watch the tip for jumping and look under the shaft and watch for the center of the shaft as you roll the cue.

Then break the joint a half turn and roll the cue on the table again.

4. Roll the shaft and the butt on the table individually to check straightness.



After doing these thing a cue maker can have a good idea what is going on.

Then he must mount the cue in the lathe and indicate the cue to zero. After this is done indicating the pin can be checked.

Once this is done a repair can be performed and there could be the following or combination of the following things below.

Canted pin

Bad facing

Taper roll from mis aligned shaft female thread or from improper taper turning causing center of shaft to ossilate OSCILLATE (bounce in middle ) during tapering causing a pancake effect. Pancaking can also occur from over sanding a shaft.

Bad shaft - warped

Bad Butt - Warped.

Owner abuse.

As was posted, send the cue back and have the problem dealt with.

Unless the cue can be examined everything is speculative because there can be a combination of slight problems and errors going on.

It is up to the CM to make it right if there has not be any abuse.

Send it to the original maker. Once a repair guy touches the cue the original maker is off the hook to fix it forever. Some cue maker will not take the cue back to fix for free if it is not original buyer. Some do.

Good luck and hopefully it is not something too bad.

JMO.

Rick
Click to expand...
The OP is not a cue maker
Using a cup center no longer makes it between centers ( technically ).
That's more like end to end .
Between centers in the machining world is using a dead center in the chuck plus lathe dog and live center in the tailstock.

I've seen high end cues roll funny if you roll the butt only. I could swear the nose is wobbling . But, as soon as I joined it with the shaft and rolled the joint on top of the rail, the ferrule rolled perfectly suspended on the air.
The butt rolled perfectly on top of the rail too.
This opens for a nice debate, but I don't really care . :D
The cue had a thin joint size and a really fat A-joint section . I saw three curves on the whole butt.

Back to the radial. There are indeed two taps. One is UNDERSIZED and the other is just the right size . Both call for a 5/16 hole. If the cue is going to Asia, I don't recommend using the undersized one . Even if you seal the crap out of that hole .

We are indeed just speculating unless we see the cue .
 
JoeyInCali said:
One is UNDERSIZED and the other is just the right size .
Click to expand...

Just the right size is is apparently too sloppy for the OP. It is for me, too. I have used both taps. The "just the right size" tap leaves the joint exactly as the OP says, which is not tight until the faces meet. There's nothing wrong with that, although like the OP I prefer the tighter feel. Regardless, whether it's "just the right size" or oversize, it's a loose fit. At least it is with my tap. My undersize tap makes the joint feel smooth and snug the entire way.
 
JoeyInCali said:
The OP is not a cue maker
Using a cup center no longer makes it between centers ( technically ).
That's more like end to end .
Between centers in the machining world is using a dead center in the chuck plus lathe dog and live center in the tailstock.

We are indeed just speculating unless we see the cue .
Click to expand...

Joey,

If a cue has a tip on it and you put it between a dead center and live cup center and it does not show a blurr or bump you can rule out the shaft is warped. That's all. Taking off the tip to put a tiny center on the ferrule end is a waste of money and time when trouble shooting.

When I run my shafts or other 3/8" 14s between centers I use a precision pin concentricity device that Is the basis of my tapering process. I have at least 40 of these devices with 60 degree centers in my shop and they are true within .0002. That device threaded into the shaft aligns my thread centerline to taper turn on the X from the get go. When turning my cue shafts, I never rely on the chamfer to run on the dead side. On new cue shafts the device does not come out of the shaft until it is finish buffed. Makes a big difference IMHO.

I totally agree that we are all speculating about the OP's cue without a complete inspection of the entire system both assembled and disassembled. The ball is in his CM's hands to make him a happy customer. Hope all things works out well.

BTW,

Rick
 
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Joey,

If a cue has a tip on it and you put it between a dead center and live cup center and it does not show a blurr or bump you can rule out the shaft is warped. That's all. Taking off the tip to put a tiny center on the ferrule end is a waste of money and time when trouble shooting.
Click to expand...
Yes, but technically that is not between centers. You got the curvature of the tip that might throw it off too. Besides, he's not a cue maker. He has no tooling for that .
 
qbilder said:
Just the right size is is apparently too sloppy for the OP. It is for me, too. I have used both taps. The "just the right size" tap leaves the joint exactly as the OP says, which is not tight until the faces meet. There's nothing wrong with that, although like the OP I prefer the tighter feel. Regardless, whether it's "just the right size" or oversize, it's a loose fit. At least it is with my tap. My undersize tap makes the joint feel smooth and snug the entire way.
Click to expand...

I also have both taps and with the Uniloc radial Pin the undersized is tight and the regular is not as tight but it is still snug when you get toward the bottom. I have used some pins made by other makers where they are loose fit with the regular tap.
 
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
One is UNDERSIZED and the other is just the right size .

"Just the right size is is apparently too sloppy for the OP. It is for me, too. I have used both taps. The "just the right size" tap leaves the joint exactly as the OP says, which is not tight until the faces meet. There's nothing wrong with that, although like the OP I prefer the tighter feel. Regardless, whether it's "just the right size" or oversize, it's a loose fit. At least it is with my tap. My undersize tap makes the joint feel smooth and snug the entire way."


Just got back from work and all the comments have helped somewhat.
Maybe I am over reacting, but its my first and I want it right. The comments from Joeyincali were the most helpful in getting me to understand what might be going on.

"SMOOTH AND SNUG THE ENTIRE WAY" This would be what I also prefer. It just gives me a better feeling about the cue. Am I aloud to make a comparison between the tight fit of a cue joint and the tight fit of a certain part of the female anatomy.:wink: Just makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

With that out of the way, from what I understand looseness won"t effect the feelling of a solid hit.

Is there a good/easy solution to snugging up the loose fitting theads to the pin.

From what I've read it seems there is no easy solution. and I'm expecting too much......
 
make it tighter

If the problem is not big enough to have to reface the butt or shaft end of the coupling, there is a way to tighten the shaft fit. You can heat up a tea kettle and let the steam from the hole in the spout blow into the shaft joint hole. Let it dry. The wood will have swelled slightly and raised the grain. The shaft will feel quite tight until you screw it together a couple of times. The other option is to heat water in a pan and dip a cotton swab in the water a couple of times and run it around the inside of the wood threads. It will be tight when it dries. I have done this before on old radial cues. As far as a credit card thickness of taper roll - I would shoot with it. It will have no impact on play. The only reason I mentioned how to tighten the joint is - if the owner feels that a tighter joint makes the cue hit better, make it tighter. If you don't want to put water in your cue, a light oil will produce the same effect.
 
coochieman57 said:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
One is UNDERSIZED and the other is just the right size .

"Just the right size is is apparently too sloppy for the OP. It is for me, too. I have used both taps. The "just the right size" tap leaves the joint exactly as the OP says, which is not tight until the faces meet. There's nothing wrong with that, although like the OP I prefer the tighter feel. Regardless, whether it's "just the right size" or oversize, it's a loose fit. At least it is with my tap. My undersize tap makes the joint feel smooth and snug the entire way."


Just got back from work and all the comments have helped somewhat.
Maybe I am over reacting, but its my first and I want it right. The comments from Joeyincali were the most helpful in getting me to understand what might be going on.

"SMOOTH AND SNUG THE ENTIRE WAY" This would be what I also prefer. It just gives me a better feeling about the cue. Am I aloud to make a comparison between the tight fit of a cue joint and the tight fit of a certain part of the female anatomy.:wink: Just makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

With that out of the way, from what I understand looseness won"t effect the feelling of a solid hit.

Is there a good/easy solution to snugging up the loose fitting theads to the pin.

From what I've read it seems there is no easy solution. and I'm expecting too much......
Click to expand...

I kinda figured it was your first custom. I completely understand the panic, but don't let it get you. Have some faith in your builder & give the cue a try. A credit card wobble really is pretty common, whether you buy custom or production. More than that and something may be wrong, but yours sounds pretty typical. Relax & learn from it, and due diligence next time you buy. Just ask around for the things you like. Lots of cue buyers on these forums that are more than willing to help you spend money LOL
 
qbilder said:
But I NEVER produce a perfect cue. Never have, never will. I would if I could but I can't. I'm not that good. I don't know anybody who is. If it happens to me, then it's an accident. I'm not that good.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your honesty. I have posted similar comments about myself before and was almost crucified on here by non cuemakers. I have never built a cue that I could not find some minor flaw in if I looked close enough. I have heard others say nothing goes out of their shop unless it is perfect. Does perfect mean perfect or does perfect mean really really good to them?
 
i have never seen

a cue that is perfect, nor have i ever seen one that was perfectly straight, under enough magnification they are all flawed.

there are many that are so very close, but none perfect.
 
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