Rating One Pocket Players

Billy,
First, great list. I would envy anyone that has played and seen all of these players you've mentioned.

I have seen most of these players competing and agree that all should be mentioned on anyone's list of great One Pocket Players.

I also have had the pleasure of playing some (not all) of these players, Cook, Chohan, Hopkins and Daulton (he was maybe 18 years old then) and got beat by all of them.

Once again, thanks for starting this very interesting conversation.
Good luck in Dallas.



wincardona said:
Several months ago I was reading a rating list of the best one pocket players in the world. Some I agreed with ,others I didn't.I will post the top 10 both current,and also in the last 40 years. (my opinion) INCIDENTALLY,I GAMBLED WITH ALL OF THEM.I would like to add this, My top 5 players are my honest opinion that will NEVER change,in my last 40 year list,unless there will be some talented player that will change my mind.But as it stands now there they are.There are probably 5 or so other players that could fit comfortably to make it a top 20 list. And I think most knowledgeable people can figure that out.

CURRENT ---------LAST 40 YEARS

#1 REYES ----------#1 REYES
#2 JOYNER ----------#2 R.ALLEN
#3 FROST ----------#3 E.KELLY
#4 CHOHAN ----------#4 JOYNER
#5 DUEL ----------#5 BUGS
#6 J.JONES ----------#6 FROST
#7 BUSTAMANTE------#7 T. CHOHAN
#8 S. DALTON -------- #8 S.DALTON
#9 L.NEVIL -----------#9 J.BREIT
#10 G. OWEN ---------#10 BOSTON SHORTY
-----------------------#11 Allen Hopkins
-----------------------#12 Steve Cook
-----------------------#13 Mark Tad

Six through thirteen are very close. On any given day.
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Anybody want to comment on Danny Jones as a one pocket player? I haven't heard much on this, except The Beard mentioned Jones was one of only a couple of players that Artie B. quit on, because as The Beard put it , he said, "I didn't like what he was doing to me."
 
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Shawn Armstrong said:
I'm noticing a glorious absense of international players here. A couple of Filipino players graced the list, but no Chinese or German players on the list. I've heard there are a few good one-hole players in Germany - Hohmann and Engert come to mind. Also, I've heard that Chao plays all disciplines well - 9B, Str8 and One-hole. Was this an intentional "American" list with the exception of two international players?
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Okay, unless the German hair gel crew have been playing a lot of one pocket against someone that can actually teach them something about the game, I find it very hard to believe they can play the game at an above average level. Not that they would not ever be able to, because all 14.1 players have an advantage of practicing moving the cue ball around close quarters. But it appears that Europe is not an ideal breeding ground for one pocket players because there is noone there to teach them, as far as playing lessons (anyone can read a book or watch a tape, but it's much different with your feet to the fire). So, IMO they know very little about one-pocket by default, because what good does it do to practice or play the game against someone else who knows nothing?
 
wincardona said:
Hemicudes,
You are one of the more knowledgeable posters on AZB. Maybe one day i'll do my top ten posters and include you in that list,and if I do i'll probably get more negative feed back from some other non knowledgeable posters on why I didn't include so and so.But in answer to why I didn't include the GREAT Eddie Taylor,the answer is a simple one. I personally never saw Taylor play when he was in his prime. I have often heard from a lot of the all time great players Corn Bread Red and such ,that he was the best one pocket player ever. And I also heard it often enough from creditable people to believe that it could be true.A very good friend of mine the great Eddie Kelly used to go on the road with Taylor quite often,and has always referred to him as clearly the best bank pool player that ever lived.When he talked about his one pocket game he said that he thought Ronnie Allen was a hair better. I must respect his opinion,considering how great of a player he was ,and how well he knew the players of that era.
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I know what you mean, Billy. Some years ago I made a top 10 one pocket players, all time, list and left another southern legend, Marshall Carpenter, off my list. I drew big time heat because it was posted on SouthernBilliards.com. Like you, the reason I left Squirrel off my list is that as many times as I had been around him I, to this day, have never seen him matched up playing one pocket. Seems I was a day late or a day early to sweat him in action.

The guy who Ronnie, Ed and Richie went to Mobile to play was Cleo Vaughn and I have seen him play many times. It took someone Ronnie's speed to have the stone cold nuts playing, Cleo. Yet, how many people here and elsewhere have ever heard of Cleo Vaughn? I used to match up with, Earl Heisler, frequently when in NOLA. Earl, who was a great one pocket player never made the short trip to Mobile to take a shot at, Cleo.

Bill Stack and I moved to Chicago in 1979. I stayed till 1999 and have seen you play quite a few times and was very impressed with your game and even moreso with your class at the table. Again, it's a pleasure to have you posting here on AZ. I hope Diamonds in Dallas takes off like a rocket. You have some class guys in with you and the $$$ is certainly there. Ya'll come.
 
senor said:
Okay, unless the German hair gel crew have been playing a lot of one pocket against someone that can actually teach them something about the game, I find it very hard to believe they can play the game at an above average level. Not that they would not ever be able to, because all 14.1 players have an advantage of practicing moving the cue ball around close quarters. But it appears that Europe is not an ideal breeding ground for one pocket players because there is noone there to teach them, as far as playing lessons (anyone can read a book or watch a tape, but it's much different with your feet to the fire). So, IMO they know very little about one-pocket by default, because what good does it do to practice or play the game against someone else who knows nothing?
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So, Efren learned his skills from the past Filipino One Pocket champions? Who would he have learned from?
 
senor said:
Okay, unless the German hair gel crew have been playing a lot of one pocket against someone that can actually teach them something about the game, I find it very hard to believe they can play the game at an above average level. Not that they would not ever be able to, because all 14.1 players have an advantage of practicing moving the cue ball around close quarters. But it appears that Europe is not an ideal breeding ground for one pocket players because there is noone there to teach them, as far as playing lessons (anyone can read a book or watch a tape, but it's much different with your feet to the fire). So, IMO they know very little about one-pocket by default, because what good does it do to practice or play the game against someone else who knows nothing?
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Ahem..................Bustamante, number 7 on Bill's list, lives in Germany. He plays in their league system. He might be a good teacher...........
 
I think Allen Hopkins should be on the list also.;) All in all its a good list Billy and maybe you should make it a top 20,lol,so you can include some of the other guys.:)
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
So, Efren learned his skills from the past Filipino One Pocket champions? Who would he have learned from?
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Efren has been playing in the U.S. for years and I've read on these forums that he learned the game of one pocket after he got here.

Come on Hemi or Freddie, how good was Danny Jones' one pocket game in his prime?
 
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Smorgass Bored said:
Billy,
Where would you rank players such as:
Grady Mathews
Steve Mizerak
Buddy Hall
Nick Varner
Jose Paica
There is a big empty chasm between 'current' and your 'past 40 years' categories and many top players have fallen in.... imo :)

Doug


CHASM: NOUN: 1. A deep, steep-sided opening; an abyss or gorge.
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Smorgas Bored,

The six players that you referenced are all great players, and it would be hard in my opinion to seperate them in terms of effeciency. Every one of them are champions and could very well be in anyones top 10 list. My intentions was never to slight any of these great players, I understand how much time and love they all have put into the game,and I respect each and every one of them for that.Also I feel that there are a few players upset that I put Frost and Chohan in my list and not them. The reason I included them was that they are playing some of the best one pocket I have seen in a long time, and maybe they couldn't beat some of the players you mentioned,so it would be easy to build that case,and get support.It's to bad that the players that you mentioned are past their prime, because there would be some very interesting match ups. But in regard to my top 5 on my list,my opinion holds strong.
 
Willy boy and me, dagnabit!

Shawn Armstrong said:
So, Efren learned his skills from the past Filipino One Pocket champions? Who would he have learned from?
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Billy Cardone may be too gracious to bang his own drum, but I sure aint. In a magazine interview when Efren was asked where, and who he learned 1pkt from, he immediately said, "In Chicago, playing Billy and Freddy." It's in print.
He learned zero 1pkt in the Philippines. I can say that with impugnity, because when Efren and I started playing 1pkt, he knew so little that I had to play him 10 to 8! And that was after he had won the tournament at Red's in Houston. (of course, that spot did not last very long)

the Beard

PS On my new blog I will be pontificating on the sociopathic, political, and philosophical views on pool, and the world in general. I am now adding a daily tip from the Old-time Hustler's Handbook. A gamemanship section to soon follow.
 
somewhat lacking in one pocket skills

Shawn Armstrong said:
So, Efren learned his skills from the past Filipino One Pocket champions? Who would he have learned from?
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Efren is actually somewhat lacking in traditional one pocket skills and knowledge. He is so strong in other areas that he simply rewrites the book. Give him a glimpse at anything when he is "on" and you sit there and watch eight or more and out. He absolutely owned the cue ball at the 2006 DCC semi's and finals. Doubtful that anybody could have beaten him at any pool game played on a standard nine foot table that day.

Hu
 
Good, good, good

punter said:
Efren has been playing in the U.S. for years and I've read on these forums that he learned the game of one pocket after he got here.

Come on Hemi or Freddie, how good was Danny Jones' one pocket game in his prime?
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I've already cited that I didn't want to fade his onepocket action.

the Beard
 
ShootingArts said:
Efren is actually somewhat lacking in traditional one pocket skills and knowledge. He is so strong in other areas that he simply rewrites the book. Give him a glimpse at anything when he is "on" and you sit there and watch eight or more and out. He absolutely owned the cue ball at the 2006 DCC semi's and finals. Doubtful that anybody could have beaten him at any pool game played on a standard nine foot table that day.

Hu
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That was exactly my point. To say that German players or Chinese players aren't good at one pocket is absurd. If you're great at 9B and Str8, I cannot see any reason why you can't become world class at one-pocket.
 
ShootingArts said:
Efren is actually somewhat lacking in traditional one pocket skills and knowledge. He is so strong in other areas that he simply rewrites the book. Give him a glimpse at anything when he is "on" and you sit there and watch eight or more and out. He absolutely owned the cue ball at the 2006 DCC semi's and finals. Doubtful that anybody could have beaten him at any pool game played on a standard nine foot table that day.

Hu
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ShootingArts,
Please stop, Reyes is lacking in traditional one pocket skills,what does that mean? And in knowledge he's in front of the world period. There is no big mystery in playing one pocket,particularly if your a top player.To play one pocket you use your imagination, and your God given sense in when to shoot or build a position You MOVE THE CUE BALL to give you an advantage both on offense and creating positive situations for yourself.No one,no one does that better than Reyes. Please stop.
 
wincardona said:
ShootingArts,
Please stop, Reyes is lacking in traditional one pocket skills,what does that mean? And in knowledge he's in front of the world period. There is no big mystery in playing one pocket,particularly if your a top player.To play one pocket you use your imagination, and your God given sense in when to shoot or build a position You MOVE THE CUE BALL to give you an advantage both on offense and creating positive situations for yourself.No one,no one does that better than Reyes. Please stop.
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agreed,i dont play one hole but ive watched almost all those on the list play and like i said before everybody else is playing for 2nd.he's the best there is,there was and the best there will ever be,imo.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
That was exactly my point. To say that German players or Chinese players aren't good at one pocket is absurd. If you're great at 9B and Str8, I cannot see any reason why you can't become world class at one-pocket.
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I doubt anyone will come on here and say that they "can't become" great, they just aren't yet. If the game ever takes hold over there, I'm sure there will be a few outstanding players that emerge as one pocket greats.

But I and many others would be willing to bet against anyone from China and Europe that wants to play any of the players on Billy's current top 10 list even.

Not to offend you but do you play one pocket?
 
billy im curious as to how you and larry n. played and the outcome if you dont mind posting it.thanks
 
Honestly, one of my biggest and most enjoyable pleasures is when I have the opportunity to watch Reyes play one pocket.When I commentate one of his matches I am really in awe of some of the things that he does. He is a joy for me to watch,especially since I learn something every time he plays. And that alone speaks volumes for his ability and KNOWLEDGE of playing pool. And i'm sure The Beard will agree that there is a special feeling every time we watch him play that there was a time that we felt superior playing him. Even though it was for only the briefest of time.And that my friends is very,very unique.
 
Alex Kanapilly said:
I doubt anyone will come on here and say that they "can't become" great, they just aren't yet. If the game ever takes hold over there, I'm sure there will be a few outstanding players that emerge as one pocket greats.

But I and many others would be willing to bet against anyone from China and Europe that wants to play any of the players on Billy's current top 10 list even.

Not to offend you but do you play one pocket?
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I play all the games that will make me a better player. There's not a lot of players in my area that play one-pocket, so I usually play it as practice with myself.

While I can agree that most of the best one-pocket players are probably local product, I find it absurd to say that there are no stars of the game in other countries. There are 2 Filipino players on that top 10. They learned it somewhere. There are an abundance of cue wizards in Germany - so many so that I'd love to see a Mosconi Cup matchup between the US and Germany. When you look at Ortmann, Souquet, Hohmann, and Engert, you are looking at some of the best 9-ball and straight pool players on the planet. Why do people think that these skills wouldn't translate to one-pocket? That's where I have trouble with some people's thinking on this topic. Efren is the best rotation player on the planet. I think he's probably the best 8-ball player too. He plays good straight pool, and has become the standard by which one-pocket greatness is measured. I think if you have the ability to run 400+ balls at Str8, you can learn and excel at any game, billiards related, that you want to. Just my opinion.
 
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