Realistically, what should promoters focus on when it comes to pro pool?

Positively Ralf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They want the mainstream crowds but the hardcore crowd is still their main viewing audience. And the hardcore crowd sometimes cannot come to a conclusion as to what version of the pro game should be presented.

So I ask you, put yourself in the shoes of match room, the predator group or accustats and even the NBL group. What would you focus on to bring pro pool to the masses?

I remember Darren appleton' world pool series started with 8 ball but eventually moved to 9 ball.

So should everyone just focus on 9 ball? Winner breaks? Alternate breaks? Universal rules like break boxes? Let's hear some suggestions.

Or does it not matter what they do?
 

JusticeNJ

Four Points/Steel Joints
Silver Member
I thought you'd be asking if promotes should focus on what the players want or the what the fans want before opening this thread.
 

Positively Ralf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I thought you'd be asking if promotes should focus on what the players want or the what the fans want before opening this thread.

Nothing wrong with taking a topic to a different direction. Please let's here some feedback on either topic
 

telinoz

Registered
Snooker has more money, better coverage and is very stable and still growing...

You touched on a key point for pool.
Just too many versions.
That is the real problem.

7ft, 9ft tables.
Then different ruling bodies.
Then different rule sets.
Different size balls.
Rounded pockets, square cut.

Diversity and variety is great, but not for promoting a sport.

I already know there is not going to be a single winner for pool.
Everyone has their reasons.
 

BlueRaider

Registered
At this point I think Matchroom has it right, or is at least close to dialing it in 100% across the board.

The next big hurdle is more prize money. There needs to be a $100k first place prize for a major with prize money increasing every year in order for the sport to gain any sort of recognition IMO.

$60k for the World 9 Ball was a good start but it still makes pool seem like a super niche game. The 2021 world darts champion made ~$625k!

Of course, I'm sitting here telling others how to spend their money. But I think that $100k is a very feasible prize amount for at least ONE major per year, namely the World 9 Ball, and is befitting whoever claims that title.
 

joelpope

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I asked a HOF pro why so much 9 & 10 ball and he said "it's whatever the promoter wants" and went on to say that more than game preference he had a preference to eat on a regular basis and would play whatever the promoter dishes up.

As far as the promoter goes, at least in this environment, the spectator is king. The promoter needs to put on a show that allows him to turn a profit be it through manufacturer sponsorship or ticket sales & ultimately, if the manufacturers doesn't feel it is a wise investment based on spectator behavior they will move on.

The hard truth is that the success of professional pool in general or any particular event is really up to the spectators and that is a truth most of the "what's wrong with pool" crowd will not face.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They want the mainstream crowds but the hardcore crowd is still their main viewing audience. And the hardcore crowd sometimes cannot come to a conclusion as to what version of the pro game should be presented.

So I ask you, put yourself in the shoes of match room, the predator group or accustats and even the NBL group. What would you focus on to bring pro pool to the masses?

I remember Darren appleton' world pool series started with 8 ball but eventually moved to 9 ball.

So should everyone just focus on 9 ball? Winner breaks? Alternate breaks? Universal rules like break boxes? Let's hear some suggestions.

Or does it not matter what they do?
8-ball is by far the most popular game in the world among the masses, but the rules for the pros would somehow have to be tweaked to make it more like bar table rules, which is like 99% of how all pool / 8-ball is played among recreational players.

No safeties allowed and ball-in-hand on all missed shots would keep the game going at a very fast pace, at the cost of eliminating a lot of the skill and strategy involved, so I’m guessing the pro players would not like it. I would guess alternating breaks would need to be utilized to keep it relatively fair / competitive.

There would be enough upsets to make it interesting, but the best players would adjust their games and their strategy accordingly. Assuming the match races were still relatively long, the highest skilled players would still likely finished towards the top.
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
They want the mainstream crowds but the hardcore crowd is still their main viewing audience. And the hardcore crowd sometimes cannot come to a conclusion as to what version of the pro game should be presented.

So I ask you, put yourself in the shoes of match room, the predator group or accustats and even the NBL group. What would you focus on to bring pro pool to the masses?
Making the game consistent and recognizable to the wider audience is the key to attracting and keeping them. The hardcore viewer will watch no matter what the details are.

It is a fiction that what the players want and what the fans want are the same thing. The players are always asking for rules changes, equipment changes, prize payout changes, and other things that make almost no difference to the casual fan, who simply wants consistency and continuity so that the game remains recognizable to them. Every time player demands are met by event producers, the casual fan is, ever so slightly, disenfranchised because the pros are no longer playing a game those fans know.

Snooker has it right. Even the most casual of fans knows 99% of the rules in snooker and the game is incredibly simple to follow. The game looks about the same as it did 50 years ago. On the other hand, for years now, it seems that every pool tourney has equipment and rules that are different from the event before it, and it's no longer the game that the casual fans play in the bars or the pool halls but something different.

Matchroom is the first to truly understand how important it is to give the fans the game they know, and they are making great strides in standardizing their pool offering. That said, however, the players are already talking unionizing and have made it clear that they'll push hard for some rule and format changes. This will back Matchroom into a corner, for they cannot relent without modifying their product in a way that makes it less recognizable to casual fans. A return to the times when the game was tweaked time and time again, in my view, must be avoided.

Predator, conversely, has overhauled the game, switching from nine ball to ten ball, playing call shot rules, disallowing golden breaks, giving a player a pass/play option whenever opponent pockets a ball they didn't call, and a spot shot shootout to break ties. They're taking a completely new approach to things, and maybe time will prove them right that this will catch on with casual fans. Fans are still getting used to their pro pool product, but that's OK, as long as that product remains consistent. We shall see.

I think both Matchroom and Predator are focusing more on the entertainment value of their pro pool offering for the fans than the needs of the pros, and that's encouraging for our sport.

What the pros need is the opportunity to make a living, and they've never had it better than they have it now. If they are vigilant in demanding changes to the pro pool offerings of the event producers, they'll reduce the likelihood that casual fans will tune in and stay interested over time. If they are wise, they'll let the event producers manage the pro pool product as they see fit.
 
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MajorMiscue

Democat
Gold Member
We need to find a way to make the pros demonstrate their shot making ability. When each game is a break and run with lots of safety play and no chances taken, the game gets old fast I never need to see another 9b tournament.

I like a game without slop and with credit for balls made, not just the money ball. I liked American Rotation but it would require someone actually keeping score and enough time for fans to get used to the rules.

 

telinoz

Registered
If I was to pick a game, as others pointed out its 8 ball all the way for Joe Public to relate.
Even outside of the USA, the variations of 8 ball make it the most played game.

As I said on post #4, agreeing to rulesets and equipment is the biggest issue.
Hard for Joe Public to relate to it if equipment shown is not what is in their pub, club, etc.

If I had $1B to spend though, ha ha, throw us a bone Elon..
Then I would limit it to 2 types of events for a Pro tour with qualifying spots from leagues, satellite events just like Q School does for Snooker. Give Joe Public players a path to get on the tour, ranking points for EVERYONE, just scales up for the main tournaments obviously.
But ranking database would have hundreds of thousands of players in it, exciting.
FargoRate stats part of match scoring at all levels.
2 year tour card.

2 events models, multiple tournaments each year:
7ft bar box, WPA 8ball rules. Diamonds for tighter pockets.
Same tour...
9ft pro spec Diamonds, WPA 8ball rules.
Equal split of tournaments, don't favor one table size over the other.

Proper prize money on par with Snooker.

More relatable and I suspect would get more of Joe Public watching it.
Especially when you make them part of the tour at the lower tier events.

>>

Most of that $1B would be spent on a global network of tournament, training centres.
You would need several in lots of countries.

Hey, its a fantasy thread after all.
 
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DryFlyTrout

Well-known member
I asked a HOF pro why so much 9 & 10 ball and he said "it's whatever the promoter wants" and went on to say that more than game preference he had a preference to eat on a regular basis and would play whatever the promoter dishes up.

As far as the promoter goes, at least in this environment, the spectator is king. The promoter needs to put on a show that allows him to turn a profit be it through manufacturer sponsorship or ticket sales & ultimately, if the manufacturers doesn't feel it is a wise investment based on spectator behavior they will move on.

The hard truth is that the success of professional pool in general or any particular event is really up to the spectators and that is a truth most of the "what's wrong with pool" crowd will not face.
This is mostly what I was thinking. Pros want money. Money comes from spectators. Making the game more marketable seems like the answer.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
They want the mainstream crowds but the hardcore crowd is still their main viewing audience. And the hardcore crowd sometimes cannot come to a conclusion as to what version of the pro game should be presented.

So I ask you, put yourself in the shoes of match room, the predator group or accustats and even the NBL group. What would you focus on to bring pro pool to the masses?

I remember Darren appleton' world pool series started with 8 ball but eventually moved to 9 ball.

So should everyone just focus on 9 ball? Winner breaks? Alternate breaks? Universal rules like break boxes? Let's hear some suggestions.

Or does it not matter what they do?
The race to 11 winner breaks is a proven format/9 ball.

When NON PLAYERS attend an event, are they ever asked, what THEY did enjoy, and not?

NOPE


Use a wooden rack all the time, BECAUSE...that object is in most every home, plus the sounds of the racker/racking add to the production.

Never have two pool players as announcers.

Hire a professional/educated/announcer from any pro sport that has the proper delivery and demeanor for this game. Period

Always have the spectators surround a well lit table, with their area lit in such a way to create their separation, and allow tv viewers to see their actions/reactions.

Somehow, try and put the traditional green lamp/lighting set up over each table, it gives everyone the feel they have in almost every pool room/Bar and Home on the planet.

Do NOT have the table lit up like an operating table, washes out the production.

9 ball is exciting, fast, and large packages (winner breaks) are a must to create excitement.

Allows someone to win when there seems to be no chance.

Also, implement ideas that Stu M. has of what's needed.

E Coast does know how this game should look.



I can go on and on, but it's bed time.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Pool is where it is because of the gambling fiasco, where Vegas set odds, and the players rigged the tourney. Unfortunately, there is a dark underbelly of pool where you can’t be sure two guys aren’t working together, and chopping up money later on. It’s great that new people are trying new ideas, but the general public has very little interest in pool. It’s really a tough game to understand at the pro level, unless you play well, yourself. I think the game is as big as it’s ever going to be, and all we are doing is diluting the already thin fan base, with all of the rule changes to make pool “better for tv”. I really don’t even watch events anymore, and I was one of those hardcore fans that used to watch matches, buy Accu Stats tapes, etc, etc. If they can’t keep my interest in their product, what hope do they have of attracting John Q public? Slim to none. I know we all love the game, but I think it’s time that pool players recognized that we are in the vast minority. With the advent of video games, pool started dwindling off with kids back in the 80s and 90s. That’s when we lost pool.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
The timing and Covid, made many stay home, purchase a table and, like when the color of money movie came out, that increased players, from 20 to 30 million.

This increase in player numbers was on record, why? because I worked for the BCA in office with John Lewis when 'BCA moved from IA to Colorado Springs over 20 yrs ago.

When we had the board meetings it was all industry members, they had stats but the board changed, when the APA and Mark Griffin came on board, and Steve Ducoff milked the cow and sold off the player member side, that was one BIG reason BCA devolved plus a major miscue of 800,00 lost when they guaranteed their trade show attendance on the E. Coast. Miscue that made BCA a shell of what it once was.

John Lewis knows every thing that happened, how why when where and it would make a great story/book.

John created ACS and just retired this past JUNE. Great man.

BCA had the MFG stats....and there were still Many pool rooms in place yr 2000 and the BCA HAD 3 mil in the bank.

The Color of money movie increased players, but that diminished after a ten year run.

Matchrooms timing/ironically is good.

But like darts, bowling & pool which are niche sports, I too have similar feelings as you do...... Shawn Armstrong.

Matchroom goes after niche sports, probably knowing they can double or triple that amount, but probably never become the PGA, but yah never know till yah know.
 

easy-e

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The hard truth is that the success of professional pool in general or any particular event is really up to the spectators and that is a truth most of the "what's wrong with pool" crowd will not face.
That's kinda like saying that the success of a restaurant is up to the customers. If the cook serves up crap that the people don't want, it's his fault the restaurant failed. If a promoter sets up a tournament no one cares to watch, that's also on him.
 

OverTheNut

Member
I think Matchroom are making a go of it and things will evolve. In a couple of years time I'm sure a few things will be different from how they are now. What exactly will change? No idea!

9 ball rules definitely need standardizing. So many leagues insist that you must call the 9. They don't have to on TV games.

I just wish when they are showing it on TV (or stream or whatever) that they'd cut down on the excessive use of the overhead camera. Yes - a quick glance sometimes (and for replays) but they seem to go to it every other shot. As a player I want to see the stance and cue delivery. That overhead shot is awful.
 
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