Redefining the Definition of Backhand English

[dr_dave]

If your main concern is the pivot being at the "natural pivot length," then we have no disagreement. BHE can be applied with the bridge at any pivot point. Although, for fast-speed and/or close shots, the "natural pivot length" is the proper choice for squirt compensation.

I think this statement is at odds with the following statement on your website: "With basic BHE, the bridge is placed at the natural pivot length of the shaft."

I guess now you'll have to modify that to something like this:
"With basic BHE, the bridge can be placed anywhere along the cue. In order for BHE to automatically compensate for squirt, the bridge may be placed at the natural pivot point of the shaft."
:thumbup:

I don't think there was a discrepancy; but, FYI, I've updated the BHE page to read:

BHE can be used with a variable pivot length, for example to compensate for different combinations of squirt, swerve and throw (e.g., see NV A.19), but the most basic form is with the bridge at the natural pivot length of the shaft. This will totally cancel squirt (CB deflection) for fast-speed and/or short-distance shots. For longer or slower shots, swerve becomes a factor, in which case FHE (with the same bridge length) can be effective. For shots in between, one can use a combination of BHE and FHE, or adjust the bridge length (not generally recommended), or just aim by feel or intuition based on countless hours of successful practice and experience.

Thank you for the suggestion. That is much more clear now.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[Poolplaya9]

My argument for bridging at the pivot point when using backhand english is simply that it doesn't work as well to offset squirt at any other point, so if you are bridging at some other point, you can't aim straight down the intended shot line before you pivot and expect the cue ball to head down that line.

As I pointed out before, the exact same argument can be made about your method (which also does not use the natural pivot point to reduce/eliminate squirt). Your reasoning for doing it your way is essentially that you have a great feel for it and it works well for you. So why can't the same be true for the next guy using back hand english and also not using the natural pivot point because he has a great feel for it and it works best for him?

Without realizing that benefit, moving your backhand to apply english is no better or worse than any other method because it requires compensating for squirt, swerve and throw.

I agree and made the exact same point in my last post. What you are missing is that your method is also one of those that is not taking advantage of the natural pivot point to reduce squirt. Yet it is ok for you, but not for the next guy. Where is the consistency with your viewpoint?

Even with that benefit, it is only really useful without additional compensation in cases where squirt and throw are minimal and/or nearly cancel each other out. Other times, it can still be used, but the original aim line will have to include compensation for those factors.

Same as with your method, you still have to compensate for everything. So again, what makes it ok for you, but not for the next guy?

For me, taking squirt into consideration along with swerve and throw isn't much more difficult that taking only swerve and throw into consideration

You are all but saying that everyone else should use back hand english with the natural pivot point, but you are the exception and should use another method because you have a great feel for it and it works great for you. So why can't anyone else have a different method that they have a great feel for and that works great for them?

, especially when using a low squirt shaft that reduces the effect of squirt across the board.

I think the benefits of low deflection shafts are massively exaggerated. You can develop close to the same proficiency in your feel for adjustments regardless of whether it is a low or high deflection shaft. You will learn to adjust and get the feel either way. If you don't agree, show me some evidence to support your view. All the evidence I see, such as that pros seem to play at the same level with either one, as well as the fact that the best pool that has ever been played in history has been played with shafts that were not low deflection (and granted there has been the same or nearly the same level played with low deflection shafts as well, which further illustrates my point--there isn't much difference).

That's not to say that I run the calculations for every shot, only that once you have the feel for a particular shot, shooting that shot and other similar shots is just a matter of doing about the same thing you did before.

Why can't this same thing be true for the guy that uses back hand english but not the natural pivot point? You are the only person that has the best feel for any other method besides back hand english with a natural pivot point? Quite an exception you are.

Furthermore, if I choose the correct shot to send the object ball to the center of the pocket, the variation in the results due to stroke error will be less with a low squirt shaft than a regular shaft.

I think this benefit is perceived to be much bigger than it actually is and in reality the differences are fairly insignificant.

You might not agree with it, but I have put some thought into it, so it's a bit frustrating to have someone tell me that it makes no sense without challenging any of my assumptions or pointing out a particular flaw in my reasoning.

I had pointed out a lot of flaws, and did so again. The biggest thing is that there doesn't seem to be a consistency to your viewpoint. You essentially say it is ok for you to do what you have the best feel for, even if it is not considered ideal, but nobody else should be doing what they have the best feel for and what works best for them if it is not considered ideal.

Anyway, the thread has been hijacked enough. Not sure why you replied to my post to begin when your reply had zero to do with my post, and I don't want to continue to take it a different direction than the thread discussion from everyone else which was on how you define back hand english. I just thought you weren't consistent with your reasoning so I went ahead and replied. I'm not against your use of your system for english since you have the best feel for it, I just think you should be open to others using the english in the way that they have the best feel for instead of thinking that you should be the only exception.

 

[Jaden]

Look guys this is crazy...

Why are we arguing over this???

Fred wanted to illustrate the history of the term BHE and correct some assumptions about it from those who are hearing about it more recently.

Others are commenting that terms change and evolve over time, which is true.

I am going to respect Fred's wishes and refer to what I have known as BHE instead as BHE with PP and refer to utilizing the PP in general as PPE or pivot point english.

Fred can't expect everyone to do the same and it's not fair to call him names or say he is being unreasonable with his corrective statements on the history of the term as far as he knows.

He brought up that the method of pivot point aiming has been known in the past as aim and pivot.

OK...

All things under the sun have existed since time immemorial...

I am coining the term PPE or pivot point english and whether it's been used before or not doesn't matter to me.

There are many things that people have rediscovered or discovered independently before and it'll happen again I assure you.

I discovered parallel line CP discovery completely on my own, but have since learned that many people were aware of it before and it had been written about before as well, in a book by byrne I believe.

That doesn't take away from my discovery of it IMO while I couldn't play being deployed to GTMO...

In fact, it was at GTMO that I discovered the forums at AZ even though I had been visiting AZbilliards for years already at that point.

Let's let it go already though and stop berating people over silly shit.

Jaden

 

[Matt]

I had pointed out a lot of flaws, and did so again. The biggest thing is that there doesn't seem to be a consistency to your viewpoint. You essentially say it is ok for you to do what you have the best feel for, even if it is not considered ideal, but nobody else should be doing what they have the best feel for and what works best for them if it is not considered ideal.

ALL I ever said about your friend was that if he bridging at some point besides the natural pivot point of the cue he was missing out on opportunity to cancel out squirt completely on some shots. Somehow, you decided that my statement of fact was an indication that I have some vendetta against anyone that plays that way. Your friend is free to continue doing whatever works for him. If you think it would mess him up to point out the existence of a natural pivot point and the effects of bridging there, then don't.

Anyway, the thread has been hijacked enough. Not sure why you replied to my post to begin when your reply had zero to do with my post, and I don't want to continue to take it a different direction than the thread discussion from everyone else which was on how you define back hand english.

If you don't want to continue the discussion, you don't have to reply. I replied to your original post because anecdotal evidence of players playing at a high level despite not using a recommended technique is very commonly presented on this forum, and I don't understand the purpose of such anecdotes. Were you mentioning your friend as a counterpoint to the effectiveness of the technique? What bearing does his skill level have on any of this? Lots of people play at a high level without knowing the underlying physics.

I just thought you weren't consistent with your reasoning so I went ahead and replied. I'm not against your use of your system for english since you have the best feel for it, I just think you should be open to others using the english in the way that they have the best feel for instead of thinking that you should be the only exception.

My reasoning for what? Even if you disagree with my decisions to forego backhand english and play with a LD shaft based on your opinion that the benefits of a low squirt shaft are overrated, you still seem to understand my logic there. If you're interpreting that to mean that I think that my way is the only way to play, I don't know where you're getting that from. It doesn't matter how you arrive at a particular tip contact point, velocity and angle; the outcome will be the same.

 

[Matt]

Why are we arguing over this???

Because I have either been misunderstood or intentionally misrepresented and am trying to clarify my opinion. I don't know that it really matters, but it's frustrating to try to make a point and then have it twisted into something that I don't agree with.

 

[Jaden]

I meant the other stuff...

Because I have either been misunderstood or intentionally misrepresented and am trying to clarify my opinion. I don't know that it really matters, but it's frustrating to try to make a point and then have it twisted into something that I don't agree with.

i understood why you were stating what you were...

I was referring to the original point of the thread...

Jaden

 

[Matt]

i understood why you were stating what you were...

I was referring to the original point of the thread...

Jaden

Ah. All this back and forth must have given me some mild persecutory delusions. :frown:
No worries, then.

 

[Poolplaya9]

ALL I ever said about your friend was that if he bridging at some point besides the natural pivot point of the cue he was missing out on opportunity to cancel out squirt completely on some shots. Somehow, you decided that my statement of fact was an indication that I have some vendetta against anyone that plays that way. Your friend is free to continue doing whatever works for him. If you think it would mess him up to point out the existence of a natural pivot point and the effects of bridging there, then don't.

If you don't want to continue the discussion, you don't have to reply. I replied to your original post because anecdotal evidence of players playing at a high level despite not using a recommended technique is very commonly presented on this forum, and I don't understand the purpose of such anecdotes. Were you mentioning your friend as a counterpoint to the effectiveness of the technique? What bearing does his skill level have on any of this? Lots of people play at a high level without knowing the underlying physics.

My reasoning for what? Even if you disagree with my decisions to forego backhand english and play with a LD shaft based on your opinion that the benefits of a low squirt shaft are overrated, you still seem to understand my logic there. If you're interpreting that to mean that I think that my way is the only way to play, I don't know where you're getting that from. It doesn't matter how you arrive at a particular tip contact point, velocity and angle; the outcome will be the same.

My initial post was regarding the topic being discussed, which was the definition of back hand english. As had been discussed previously, some people were not getting the concept that back hand english (which is solely for applying english) and using a natural pivot point (which is solely to reduce squirt) are two separate and distinct things. Having a particular bridge length is not a requirement for using back hand english for the english, and it is still back hand english regardless of your bridge length. I mentioned my friend as an example of someone who uses back hand english solely for applying english without any regard for squirt or bridge lengths since some people were having trouble separating the two things. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not condoning his method or anything else. It sounds like maybe you just didn't comprehend my initial post correctly.

As for the rest of what you wrote in several posts, it seemed to boil down to "anybody that uses back hand english in a way where they still have to adjust for squirt by feel is an idiot. By the way, I use another method for english myself where I still have to adjust for the squirt by feel and it works great for me." Or to put it another way, you are saying that using back hand english without using the natural pivot point is stupid because you will still need to use feel to adjust for squirt, but it is perfectly fine to use other methods for applying english where you will still need to use feel to adjust for squirt. Surely you see the contradictions there.

 

[Matt]

My initial post was regarding the topic being discussed, which was the definition of back hand english. As had been discussed previously, some people were not getting the concept that back hand english (which is solely for applying english) and using a natural pivot point (which is solely to reduce squirt) are two separate and distinct things. Having a particular bridge length is not a requirement for using back hand english for the english, and it is still back hand english regardless of your bridge length. I mentioned my friend as an example of someone who uses back hand english solely for applying english without any regard for squirt or bridge lengths since some people were having trouble separating the two things. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not condoning his method or anything else. It sounds like maybe you just didn't comprehend my initial post correctly.

Yes, the thread topic is about the debate over whether the conventional definition of the technique known as backhand english includes the use of the natural pivot point. You're saying that it doesn't. Okay. You gave an example of someone who applies english by moving their backhand, but doesn't bridge at the natural pivot point to illustrate the application of your definition. Still okay. It's the part where you mention that this person plays at a high level that I don't get. Sure, maybe you just happened to mention that as part of his description, but the impression I got is that you believe his ability helps substantiate your claim. If that's not the case, you could have just as well given an example of a player that can't shoot a lick, but moves their back hand when they do it.

As for the rest of what you wrote in several posts, it seemed to boil down to "anybody that uses back hand english in a way where they still have to adjust for squirt by feel is an idiot. By the way, I use another method for english myself where I still have to adjust for the squirt by feel and it works great for me." Or to put it another way, you are saying that using back hand english without using the natural pivot point is stupid because you will still need to use feel to adjust for squirt, but it is perfectly fine to use other methods for applying english where you will still need to use feel to adjust for squirt. Surely you see the contradictions there.

I've fruitlessly searched my previous posts for any cases where I state, or even insinuate, that anyone is "stupid", or "an idiot" based on the way they play pool. Your friend may be a genius and still be ignorant of the concept of a natural pivot point. My assertion was that anyone that does play with a cue with a pivot point near their natural bridge length can benefit from the squirt-cancelling property of that cue on some shots.

 

[CJ Wiley]

These things aren't just "stumbled" on while practicing, they've been passed down

Whatever you choose to call it makes no difference, the important thing is to ALWAYS move the tip as a result of either moving your hand, or shifting your body. For the advanced players it's essential to maintain an overall body/tip coordination.

When this is done properly you will get a much better over all connection to the game....after all the tip is our only physical connection to the cue ball.....this may sound simple, however, to do it properly takes a lot of experience, practice and knowledge. Getting organized, concise directions on how to do this will speed up progress by years, and maybe a lifetime.

These things aren't just "stumbled" on while practicing, they've been passed down from many, many years to those that have "pool eyes that can see" --- 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Poolplaya9]

It's the part where you mention that this person plays at a high level that I don't get. Sure, maybe you just happened to mention that as part of his description, but the impression I got is that you believe his ability helps substantiate your claim. If that's not the case, you could have just as well given an example of a player that can't shoot a lick, but moves their back hand when they do it.

Gotcha. I wouldn't have thought it would have been interpreted that way, but I guess I can see that. Anyway, some people (and you seem to somewhat be in this boat) for the world of them can't imagine any other reason to use back hand english except to try to reduce squirt. They don't realize that there are a good amount of people out there that just prefer that method for applying english and it has nothing to do with squirt. I used my friend as an example. The only reason I mentioned his level of play is because I was anticipating the retort I could see coming from someone, that "no good player would ever use back hand english unless they were trying to reduce squirt, your friend must be a banger." Plenty of good players do use back hand english simply as their preferred way of applying english. A desire to reduce squirt is not the only reason that someone may want to use back hand english (although it has certainly become a very popular reason in recent years).

My assertion was that anyone that does play with a cue with a pivot point near their natural bridge length can benefit from the squirt-cancelling property of that cue on some shots.

The same assertion can be made about you or anyone else using any other method besides back hand english with a natural pivot point, that you would benefit by playing with a cue with a pivot point near your natural bridge length and using back hand english. The truth is they, or you, will only benefit in some cases. In other cases they have already developed a superb feel for doing it they way they currently do and would not be able to surpass or even match it by switching. If it was truly that good that everybody would improve by doing it that way, then you would switch to doing it that way. And maybe everybody would improve if they put in enough time and effort trying to master back hand english with a natural pivot point--that I don't know. But I do know that many wouldn't, at least not without massive effort, because just like you they have already become adept in their feel for adjusting to the squirt with another method.

 

[Matt]

The same assertion can be made about you or anyone else using any other method besides back hand english with a natural pivot point, that you would benefit by playing with a cue with a pivot point near your natural bridge length and using back hand english. The truth is they, or you, will only benefit in some cases. In other cases they have already developed a superb feel for doing it they way they currently do and would not be able to surpass or even match it by switching. If it was truly that good that everybody would improve by doing it that way, then you would switch to doing it that way. And maybe everybody would improve if they put in enough time and effort trying to master back hand english with a natural pivot point--that I don't know. But I do know that many wouldn't, at least not without massive effort, because just like you they have already become adept in their feel for adjusting to the squirt with another method.

I believe we have actually found common ground. Backhand english with the bridge at the pivot point has the notable property of cancelling squirt, but for many it's not worth sacrificing other things, such as low squirt or feel developed over years of play, to take advantage of it on the shots where it could simplify aiming.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Is it really possible to cancel squirt?

How does it cancel squirt?

I believe we have actually found common ground. Backhand english with the bridge at the pivot point has the notable property of cancelling squirt, but for many it's not worth sacrificing other things, such as low squirt or feel developed over years of play, to take advantage of it on the shots where it could simplify aiming.

 

[Matt]

How does it cancel squirt?

I should have said that it cancels the effect of squirt such that the initial direction of the cue ball is the same as the direction it would have gone before pivoting. The squirt is still there, it's just exactly offset by the new stroke angle after pivoting.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I actually prefer this in humid conditions or on certain types of cloth.

That's right, and you can also do this without pivoting (using a parallel shift), which changes the initial direction of the cue ball which over-cuts the object ball slightly (when playing the pocket as a zone).......I actually prefer this in humid conditions or on certain types of cloth.

I should have said that it cancels the effect of squirt such that the initial direction of the cue ball is the same as the direction it would have gone before pivoting. The squirt is still there, it's just exactly offset by the new stroke angle after pivoting.

 

[dr_dave]

How does it cancel squirt?

FYI, this is answered fairly clearly by the illustrations in the following article:
"Squirt - Part IV: BHE, FHE, and pivot-length calibration" (BD, November, 2007)

and by the demonstrations in the following video:
NV B.71 - Cue natural pivot length and back-hand english (BHE), from VEPS II

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: As you point out, the squirt is still there, but the cue pivot balances (or negates, or cancels) it.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I believe we have actually found common ground. Backhand english with the bridge at the pivot point has the notable property of cancelling squirt, but for many it's not worth sacrificing other things, such as low squirt or feel developed over years of play, to take advantage of it on the shots where it could simplify aiming.

I just said all the same things in a different way. It sounds like you reconsidered and agree that on net not everyone will benefit by using the natural pivot point to cancel squirt because they may already be too adept with their feel for another method.

For the record, I also think it is strange that my buddy uses back hand english with no attempt to reduce squirt and would try to discourage someone who is still learning from doing the same (if you are going to try using and learning back hand english, might as well try to learn and use the pivot point to try to reduce squirt as well). I've even ribbed him about his "unorthodox" method a time or two. But once you have been doing something for so long, and become so adept at it, you aren't going to change and even if you did you would likely see a decline in your game rather than an improvement, at least for a very long period of time anyway. Greenies for your time and effort in the discussion.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Cancel: to make void; revoke; annul: to cancel a reservation.

It doesn't "cancel" it....the spin compensates for it and reroutes the cue ball back towards it's original line. You could use "cancel," however it's misleading in my opinion.....maybe neutralize, compensate for, or counterbalance would be better terminology.

Cancel:

to make void; revoke; annul: to cancel a reservation.

FYI, this is answered fairly clearly by the illustrations in the following article:
"Squirt - Part IV: BHE, FHE, and pivot-length calibration" (BD, November, 2007)

and by the demonstrations in the following video:
NV B.71 - Cue natural pivot length and back-hand english (BHE), from VEPS II

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: As you point out, the squirt is still there, but the cue pivot balances (or negates, or cancels) it.

 

[dr_dave]

FYI, this is answered fairly clearly by the illustrations in the following article:
"Squirt - Part IV: BHE, FHE, and pivot-length calibration" (BD, November, 2007)

and by the demonstrations in the following video:
NV B.71 - Cue natural pivot length and back-hand english (BHE), from VEPS II

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: As you point out, the squirt is still there, but the cue pivot balances (or negates, or cancels) it.

It doesn't "cancel" it....the spin compensates for it and reroutes the cue ball back towards it's original line. You could use "cancel," however it's misleading in my opinion.....maybe neutralize, compensate for, or counterbalance would be better terminology.

Cancel:

to make void; revoke; annul: to cancel a reservation.

There are many other valid definitions of "cancel" that make it sound more appropriate, but I agree that it is probably not the best choice of word. I think I like "offset" better now.

Have a great weekend,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

.Enjoy your weekend as well, Dave.

Glad I could be of assistance.....Enjoy your weekend as well, Dave.

'The Game is our Teacher'

There are many other valid definitions of "cancel" that make it sound more appropriate, but I agree that it is probably not the best choice of word. I think I like "offset" better now.

Have a great weekend,
Dave