Redefining the Definition of Backhand English

[JB Cases]

I assume this is regarding my post where I define backhand english here, or Dr. Dave's page discussing backhand english here.

In both places, the correct method of pivoting the cue by moving your back hand to create english while automatically compensating for squirt is described. In order for it to work correctly, the bridge must be at the pivot point of the cue when it is pivoted.

Apparently, Hal was on the right track, but didn't quite get there (or scoffed at the idea of a pivot point, as you say), so he may have popularized the term backhand english to describe an incomplete (and therefore incorrect) method of applying english and compensating for squirt at the same time. It sounds good and is easy to remember, so the term became well known and was used to apply to a method where your back hand is moved to pivot the cue.

Anyhow, whether Hal believed in the existence of a pivot point or not, the correct method involves bridging at a particular point on the cue while pivoting. Eventually, the correct method and catchy name were paired together on the internet and it stuck. In my opinion, it's better that way. Why waste a good, memorable term on a broken method?

Maybe if you go around and convince everyone that "backhand english" actually refers to a method that doesn't work, we'll call the working method something else and the term "backhand english" will just be a footnote in pool history, but it doesn't seem worth the effort. Maybe we should just specify which version we mean, as in "Hal Houle's broken backhand english" or "backhand english that works". I know it's a mouthful, but it would avoid confusion.

I did a video where I demonstrated that BHE is not dependent on either bridge length nor pivot point to be effective.

I was asked this very question two days ago at the BCA event here in vegas. I suppose the reason might have been spurred by your definition or this thread.

In any case I agree with Fred. Forget about who originated the term BHE. Hal popularized it and the meaning was the application of spin (with zero regard for pivot point) by using the grip hand to pivot around the planted bridge from a center ball address. This is how I learned it directly from Hal.

Anything else should be referenced with a different term such as ppbhe for example to denote a form of BHE that relies on the pivot point. (Which is pretty much a practical impossibility anyway since you can't always have your bridge planted at the shaft pp during the course of the game).

 

[CJ Wiley]

with a 2" bridge you have to move your back hand quite a bit

When using "backhand english" the bridge length is something to be aware of.....the longer the bridge, the less you have to move your back hand to apply the same english as you do with a shorter bridge. This is one reason to shorten your bridge under pressure - to decrease any accidental "back hand" pivoting's effect on the cue ball.

For example, with a 2" bridge you have to move your back hand quite a bit to move the tip an inch on the cue ball......however, with a much longer bridge you just have to move your hand slightly to move the tip 1" on the cue ball.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Matt]

I did a video where I demonstrated that BHE is not dependent on either bridge length nor pivot point to be effective.

I was asked this very question two days ago at the BCA event here in vegas. I suppose the reason might have been spurred by your definition or this thread.

In any case I agree with Fred. Forget about who originated the term BHE. Hal popularized it and the meaning was the application of spin (with zero regard for pivot point) by using the grip hand to pivot around the planted bridge from a center ball address. This is how I learned it directly from Hal.

Anything else should be referenced with a different term such as ppbhe for example to denote a form of BHE that relies on the pivot point. (Which is pretty much a practical impossibility anyway since you can't always have your bridge planted at the shaft pp during the course of the game).

I'm not sure what your definition of effective is, but my claim was that BHE applied with the bridge at the pivot point will perfectly compensate for squirt for any amount of english. That doesn't include any compensation for other factors, and it doesn't preclude BHE working at different pivot points to some degree. If you're telling me that BHE is equally effective on the same shot using varying english with your bridge 2" from the tip, at the pivot point, and 2" from the joint, I don't believe it. If it seems like it is, you are probably subconsciously compensating when you aim.

As far as the naming goes, I don't really care whether BHE is used to mean with or without the bridge at the pivot point. Like I said previously in this thread, I feel that I would be remiss to teach someone BHE without including the concept of a natural pivot point. For shorter (CB to OB) and faster shots, it is the ideal place for your bridge when using BHE. Of course you can't always bridge there, but it seems like a good default bridge location if it's an option. I usually play with an LD shaft, so it's not an option for me anyways, but it's a neat trick to have in your bag if you play with a regular shaft with a natural pivot point at a comfortable bridge length.

 

[dr_dave]

I usually play with an LD shaft, so it's not an option for me anyways, but it's a neat trick to have in your bag if you play with a regular shaft with a natural pivot point at a comfortable bridge length.

I play with an LD shaft (Predator Z-2) and use BHE when appropriate. The natural pivot length (about 12-13 inches) is at a comfortable bridge length for me.

In the past, when I first wrote about BHE and FHE, I used to think natural pivot lengths were longer than they actually are. That is because the tests I used in the past also involved a significant amount of throw. What I was measuring with those old tests was a pivot length that compensated for the combined effects of squirt and throw for a straight-on shot. This is longer than the natural pivot length that compensates for just squirt. I prefer to bridge at the natural pivot length because it allows me to effectively use BHE, FHE and BHE/FHE (where appropriate) while compensating for throw separately.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[Matt]

I play with an LD shaft (Predator Z-2) and use BHE when appropriate. The natural pivot length (about 12-13 inches) is at a comfortable bridge length for me.

In the past, when I first wrote about BHE and FHE, I used to think natural pivot lengths were longer than they actually are. That is because the tests I used in the past also involved a significant amount of throw. What I was measuring with those old tests was a pivot length that compensated for the combined effects of squirt and throw for a straight-on shot. This is longer than the natural pivot length that compensates for just squirt. I prefer to bridge at the natural pivot length because it allows me to effectively use BHE, FHE and BHE/FHE (where appropriate) while compensating for throw separately.

Catch you later,
Dave

Thanks for the tip. I think I worked out the pivot lengths of my cues to include some throw as well. I'll go back and re-calibrate with reduced throw and see what I get. Even if the natural pivot length is at a comfortable spot for me, I don't know if I would be able to get used to moving my back hand after aiming, but it would be nice to know it's an option.

This does bring up an interesting question: Is a pivot length calibrated including some amount of throw useful? Since throw doesn't directly scale with the tip offset like squirt does (spiking at ~50% english instead), and factors in the vertical rotation of the ball as well as the the speed, it seems like it needs to be given special consideration, but I could see how finding an "effective" pivot point for somewhere in the middle might be good enough for most shots.

 

[dr_dave]

Is a pivot length calibrated including some amount of throw useful?

For selected shots; but in general, no. Throw depends on too many variables (cut angle, shot speed, type of english, amount of english, amount of top or bottom spin, conditions, etc.) to come up with a useful "average." Also, it doesn't increase with the amount of pivot (in fact, often it decreases with additional pivot).

Since throw doesn't directly scale with the tip offset like squirt does (spiking at ~50% english instead), and factors in the vertical rotation of the ball as well as the the speed, it seems like it needs to be given special consideration

Agreed.

but I could see how finding an "effective" pivot point for somewhere in the middle might be good enough for most shots.

Again, this might work for certain types of shots, but I still think it is best to deal with throw separately.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Throw depends on too many variables (cut angle, shot speed, type of english, amount of english, amount of top or bottom spin, conditions, etc.) to come up with a useful "average." Also, it doesn't increase with the amount of pivot (in fact, often it decreases with additional pivot).

To see how hopeless it would be to attempt to define some sort of "average" or pivot-based throw trend, see items 16-37 in the list of throw effects here:

squirt, swerve, and throw effects

Regards,
Dave

 

[Poolplaya9]

I'm not sure what your definition of effective is, but my claim was that BHE applied with the bridge at the pivot point will perfectly compensate for squirt for any amount of english. That doesn't include any compensation for other factors, and it doesn't preclude BHE working at different pivot points to some degree. If you're telling me that BHE is equally effective on the same shot using varying english with your bridge 2" from the tip, at the pivot point, and 2" from the joint, I don't believe it. If it seems like it is, you are probably subconsciously compensating when you aim.

As far as the naming goes, I don't really care whether BHE is used to mean with or without the bridge at the pivot point. Like I said previously in this thread, I feel that I would be remiss to teach someone BHE without including the concept of a natural pivot point. For shorter (CB to OB) and faster shots, it is the ideal place for your bridge when using BHE. Of course you can't always bridge there, but it seems like a good default bridge location if it's an option. I usually play with an LD shaft, so it's not an option for me anyways, but it's a neat trick to have in your bag if you play with a regular shaft with a natural pivot point at a comfortable bridge length.

You are still stuck on not being able to see or think about BHE and the use of a natural pivot point as two totally and completely separate and unrelated things. BHE is for applying english, period. A natural pivot point is for compensating for squirt, period. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO GO TOGETHER. I assume (and certainly hope) that when John says that BHE is effective without a natural pivot point, he is talking about effective at applying english. And that is exactly what BHE is for and the sole thing that it does, so what else would he be talking about? And he is right, it is effective at applying english. Very effective. And of course you are having to adjust for squirt like that, just like the masses that use parallel english have to do. You don't need a nautral pivot point to apply english with BHE. And all BHE is for, is just that--applying english. That's it. Nothing else. Period. End of story. English only.

Now for those that want to try to offset squirt instead of adjusting for it by feel, they can use a totally separate additional technique which consists of using a shaft for which the natural pivot point is at a bridge length that they already use, or they can adjust their bridge length to the natural pivot point of a particular shaft if different than their normal bridge llength. But whether we agree with it or not, some people would just flat rather use their feel to adjust for squirt (even if their preferred method of applying english is BHE), rather than using a natural pivot point.

And remember, every parallel english user out there (which is probably well over 90% of the pool world) is having to adjust for squirt by feel, yet I don't ever hear the people sounding incredulous towards them because of their usage of a method of english that has squirt. Yet when someone uses BHE with the squirt, people (like you seem to be) are incredulous about it and almost beside themselves sometimes. There is no logic or consistency to that position.

Now if John is claiming that BHE with a non-natural bridge length is effective in then sense that it does not require adjustment for squirt by feel then he is just plain wrong. But I think he was talking about it being effective in the application of english, which is the only thing that it does. Reduced squirt benefits can only be gained through the use of a second additional technique (natural pivot point) that has nothing to do with applying english.

 

[dr_dave]

And remember, every parallel english user out there (which is probably well over 90% of the pool world) is having to adjust for squirt by feel, yet I don't ever hear the people sounding incredulous towards them because of their usage of a method of english that has squirt.

The best way to adjust for squirt, swerve, and throw over a wide range of shots is intuitively based on many years of successful practice and experience. For the mere mortals who haven't yet built up the wealth of experience-based intuition necessary to deal with a wide range of shots, BHE, FHE, and BHE/FHE techniques can give them fairly good success and help them limit many of the "trial and error" failures as they create positive intuition-building experience.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Matt]

You are still stuck on not being able to see or think about BHE and the use of a natural pivot point as two totally and completely separate...

Separate, yes. I think I already conceded to a definition of BHE that allows for any arbitrary pivot point.

...and unrelated things.

I think that the concept of a natural pivot point is pretty meaningless without BHE, so I'd have a hard time calling them unrelated.

BHE is for applying english, period. A natural pivot point is for compensating for squirt, period. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO GO TOGETHER.

I THINK WE COVERED THAT ALREADY.

I assume (and certainly hope) that when John says that BHE is effective without a natural pivot point, he is talking about effective at applying english.

I assumed exactly the opposite. I suspect that he was demonstrating the squirt-compensating effects of backhand english. I could be wrong, but it seems like a demonstration of just applying english, however you do it, isn't much of a demonstration at all; I'm pretty sure there's no debate over the fact that hitting to the right or left of the vertical axis causes the cue ball to spin.

If generating english is what we're calling "effectiveness", it's no more or less effective than any technique that moves the tip right or left on the cue ball.

 

[Poolplaya9]

The best way to adjust for squirt, swerve, and throw over a wide range of shots is intuitively based on many years of successful practice and experience. For the mere mortals who haven't yet built up the wealth of experience-based intuition necessary to deal with a wide range of shots, BHE, FHE, and BHE/FHE techniques can give them fairly good success and help them limit many of the "trial and error" failures as they create positive intuition-building experience.

Regards,
Dave

I agree, and my posts are not in any way condoning or campaigning for any particular way of doing it. I am just trying to get Matt and the others who cannot separate applying english and reducing squirt to see and think of them as completely separate things. The former can be, and often is, used without the latter. And doing so is no more dumb or weird or illogical than using parallel english.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I think that the concept of a natural pivot point is pretty meaningless without BHE, so I'd have a hard time calling them unrelated.

I agree, a natural pivot point requires BHE. But BHE does not require a natural pivot point. It stands alone. One of them can't stand alone, but one of them can. I think on a subconscious level you are falling victim to the logical fallacy of if A requires B, then B requires A. I know on the conscious level you realize BHE is its own distinct thing and does not require the use of any squirt reduction technique, yet you still can't seem to imagine using BHE without pairing it with a squirt reduction technique. Instead of seeing that only one of them needs the other, you see them as both needing each other.

It also seems that you are incredulous that anyone would use BHE without a natural pivot point, when it is no more absurb than anyone using parallel english. Yet you still seem to have an irrational block against it.

I could be wrong, but it seems like a demonstration of just applying english, however you do it, isn't much of a demonstration at all; I'm pretty sure there's no debate over the fact that hitting to the right or left of the vertical axis causes the cue ball to spin.

Agreed.

If generating english is what we're calling "effectiveness", it's no more or less effective than any technique that moves the tip right or left on the cue ball.

Agreed. But some people find that they can more easily adjust for squirt with one over the other. One will feel more natural or intuitive to them. They will develop a better feel for one. They may be able to learn one more quickly. They both (parallel or back hand english) work equally well for applying english, but we don't necessarily learn and master them (in terms of developing the feel for adjusting for squirt with them) equally well.

As for John, the claim that no aiming adjustment would be needed for squirt if using BHE with a non-natural pivot point would be so ludicrous that I assumed he was only talking about the effectiveness in terms of applying english. But John believes he is not subconsciously adjusting his aim on other things where he absolutely is and doesn't realize it, so you may be right. I was just giving the benefit of the doubt I guess.

 

[Matt]

It also seems that you are incredulous that anyone would use BHE without a natural pivot point, when it is no more absurd than anyone using parallel english.

I still don't know where you are getting this from. I have seen lots of players, some of them better than me, doing things that are unorthodox. Using BHE with an arbitrary pivot point doesn't seem any stranger.

There's not much of interest to "demonstrate" if all John is doing is showing that the ball spins when he hits it off center. That's pool 101, so I assumed that he was demonstrating the squirt offsetting capability of BHE, but maybe he was showing english to someone that didn't know about it. I'm sure he'll eventually respond and let us know.

 

[ScottK]

I'm actually glad to see the thread has been hijacked to a degree.


Here is the problem, as I see it:

Poolplaya9 is referring to generic pivot points, ie. any point you pivot along the shaft when applying BHE. This is ridiculous. Obviously you CAN pivot anywhere.

What Matt is referring to by "natural pivot point" is the only actual pivot point.
The pivot point of a shaft, by definition, is the point along said shaft, at which to bridge, where the application of BHE will precisely compensate for squirt and swerve. As Matt has said, the two are intertwined.

I think this is the part Poolplaya9 doesn't understand. Matt's not talking about a point along the shaft at which you pivot. He's talking about a physical spot on the shaft... by definition. It's what the pivot point is, otherwise the term would indeed be meaningless, at least practically speaking.

 

[quadrary]

back hand english

This has to be one of the silliest threads and arguments I have ever seen. The most obvious use of the term would be to apply English by moving you back hand while leaving your bridge hand stationary. Any other use of the term is fine but less than clear, especially if it involves pivoting to center ball as that is by definition no English.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I still don't know where you are getting this from. I have seen lots of players, some of them better than me, doing things that are unorthodox. Using BHE with an arbitrary pivot point doesn't seem any stranger.

It's like you don't see the point of BHE if you are not using the natural pivot point. Everything I have read from you in this thread makes it sound like you can only see the two together, and cannot possibly see BHE being used without a natural pivot point just for the sake of it being someone's preferred method of applying english. If I am wrong, my apologies, but you do tend to give that impression. It's like you can't fathom in your wildest imagination the use of BHE without a natural pivot point because what would possibly be the use in doing that, it's crazy. If you were to hear that someone was using BHE, you would assume that they were also using a natural pivot point. Again, sorry if I have gotten the wrong impression.

There's not much of interest to "demonstrate" if all John is doing is showing that the ball spins when he hits it off center. That's pool 101, so I assumed that he was demonstrating the squirt offsetting capability of BHE

Agreed, but I thought it would be even more stupid to be demonstrating it with the claim that you didn't have to compensate for squirt when not using a natural pivot point so I gave the benefit of the doubt that he was demonstrating the less stupid thing, the obvious, over what would be the more stupid thing, the ludicrous. But again, you may be absolutely right and I was just guessing as I don't even know what video he is referring to.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I'm actually glad to see the thread has been hijacked to a degree.


Here is the problem, as I see it:

Poolplaya9 is referring to generic pivot points, ie. any point you pivot along the shaft when applying BHE. This is ridiculous. Obviously you CAN pivot anywhere.

What Matt is referring to by "natural pivot point" is the only actual pivot point.
The pivot point of a shaft, by definition, is the point along said shaft, at which to bridge, where the application of BHE will precisely compensate for squirt and swerve. As Matt has said, the two are intertwined.

I think this is the part Poolplaya9 doesn't understand. Matt's not talking about a point along the shaft at which you pivot. He's talking about a physical spot on the shaft... by definition. It's what the pivot point is, otherwise the term would indeed be meaningless, at least practically speaking.

I think maybe you might be misunderstanding because you are reading "pivot point" and "natural pivot point" to mean the same thing in my posts. They are two very different things. In my posts (and the correct definitions as far as I know) "pivot point" refers to whatever spot you are bridging from, or it can also refer to any random spot on the shaft you could bridge from depending on the context used, and "natural pivot point" means the one spot on the shaft where if you bridge at that spot squirt (but not swerve as you stated) will be automatically compensated for.

 

[Wedge]

Listen

FYI, this is answered fairly clearly by the illustrations in the following article:
"Squirt - Part IV: BHE, FHE, and pivot-length calibration" (BD, November, 2007)

and by the demonstrations in the following video:
NV B.71 - Cue natural pivot length and back-hand english (BHE), from VEPS II

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: As you point out, the squirt is still there, but the cue pivot balances (or negates, or cancels) it.

Listen to this guy and his instructional material...nuff said :thumbup:

 

[Cornerman]

I'm actually glad to see the thread has been hijacked to a degree.


Here is the problem, as I see it:

Poolplaya9 is referring to generic pivot points, ie. any point you pivot along the shaft when applying BHE. This is ridiculous. Obviously you CAN pivot anywhere.

What Matt is referring to by "natural pivot point" is the only actual pivot point.
The pivot point of a shaft, by definition, is the point along said shaft, at which to bridge, where the application of BHE will precisely compensate for squirt and swerve. As Matt has said, the two are intertwined.

I think this is the part Poolplaya9 doesn't understand. Matt's not talking about a point along the shaft at which you pivot. He's talking about a physical spot on the shaft... by definition. It's what the pivot point is, otherwise the term would indeed be meaningless, at least practically speaking.

A pivot point, effective pivot point and natural pivot point are different concepts.

They have been and still are.

 

[dr_dave]

FYI, for those interested in BHE and FHE, Bob Jewett and I just posted a new video online. Here it is:

NV E.2 - Back-Hand (BHE) and Front-Hand English (FHE), from HAPS I

We welcome comments and questions,
Dave