Reflection On BCA Nationals

[cardiac kid]

I see what you're/Lyn is saying now. I misunderstood. All I'd ever done was play in the Open & usually cashed(not very high) but even if I didn't I had no interest in going to the Leisure. But I could see if I was playing in the Masters and not cashing wanting to play in the Advanced.

But doesn't moving people down only then screw the people in that lower bracket? If a division is for 525-625 and a 662 is dropped in there then they are the clear favorite & now the 525's have even less of a chance. I see what you're saying but think it's a never ending problem. I'm the furthest thing from a BCA/Fargo proponent but not sure I disagree with their take on this.

jojo,

No system is going to be fair to all players. Truthfully, I don't see Fargo changing anything. Only the divisions will continue to evolve.

Some players go to Vegas nationals for a vacation with some pool involved. Some go to cash. Some go with the intent of winning. If you are one of those later players and I'm one, being told you have little or no chance to win will just help the numbers continue to drop. With that, I've beaten this horse to death.

Lyn

 

[jojopiff]

My main point was it is never a good situation for players who are in the middle of the bracket. They simply will stop playing. They aren't wanting to be moved to a lower bracket. They just want to be competitive in whatever bracket they are in. I think that is what most people hope for when they spend 1k to play in a pool tournament.

I would think there would be less of an issue if BCA decided to use game spots within each of the divisions. That way nobody is completely getting shafted. The better players will still win most of the time but they will have to play their A game to do so. I am fine with handicaps as long as they are reasonable and the player who wins had to play well. It is hard to watch someone play terrible and still win because they were such a huge favorite in the first place and it wasn't a fair spot.

But will they? Some will, but I think most will continue to play and practice and attempt to get to the top of that bracket, or at least believe they have a shot at it.

 

[nine_ball6970]

But will they? Some will, but I think most will continue to play and practice and attempt to get to the top of that bracket, or at least believe they have a shot at it.

I guess we will just have to see what happens in the future. As you get better or have played a number of years, it seems as if your ability to improve no matter how much you practice will be almost negligible. If you have been a 650 for 5 years, then it is highly doubtful you will ever be a 710.

I play with quite a few 690-710s regularly and I know my chances are slim to beat them in an even race unless I am playing great and they are having off days. They are simply better players.

I may be in the minority, but that is what I think. I am pretty sure 2015 was my last year going to BCA Nationals. I have other issues with Fargo that don't really matter at this point. I could be underrated by 100+ points because they haven't tracked league games etc. Even knowing that, I still don't have the desire to play singles at BCA Nationals.

I know a lot of people locally are getting into other leagues as opposed to BCA. There are a host of other factors why people will stop going. Some were mentioned in the OP.

 

[poolscholar]

Why improve from gold to platinum?

More competition and less money.

 

[tucson9ball]

I was on one of those 14 Platinum Teams. It was disappointing to see the turnout but I won't blame that on Fargo. It seems as players get better, they think they deserve a free pass or they just don't think it's fair to have a tough draw and play against good players. I like competition and 14 teams was really low.......
Our team went 2 and out which made for a short tourney for us. We came out and played a lil flat and our opponents took advantage of that.
My 3 man 9 Ball Platinum Team got 2nd so that was cool. We had a good run against some pretty good teams. Lost on the hot seat match hill/hill. We won our next match against a team from Utah who were extreme gentlemen in losing. My hat is off to them. Came back to duke it out with the Texas team again but came up short.... Our average Fargo was 628 and theirs was 614 but no matter, we were in the highest division so we expected to play good players. They played better than us in both matches and deserved 1st place

Next year I'm already putting a new team together. I will be the highest rated player and I'm going to play in the Gold Team event. This year there was 422 teams, much more competition. Maybe our team will have a good run, who knows?

 

[saint1]

Vegas

In a nut shell, the problem to me seems to be terrible leadership decisions one after another over the last several years resulting in greatly reduced numbers of players. (yet we are always told entries look to be about the same). I could write paragraph upon paragraph but do not have the time to do this. Our team was not able to play this year as they changed the past Master teams from a 4 man team to a 5 man team with no advanced notice. I always thought it was common practice to have your BCA session the current year to play at the nationals the following year? The change should have been mentioned a year ahead of time. One of our teammates has gone for 32 straight years without a miss, but could not go this year in teams. When discussing with Mark G, he said as a Platinum team our 5th players could come from anywhere in Ca. and not just our league, so problem solved? That kind of response tells you all you need to know. Like you just drive down the street and a top player are at every corner and who is A. already qualified to play and B. not already on someone elses team. We also flew from Ca. to AZ last Sept. and played in the Southwest Regionals and really liked it there, so planned to do it again. Went to sign up and now there is a Fargo limit of 2200 points? Just stupid, why turn away players when this was a small event already. There were some very good teams there, but they are now eliminated from playing. Sent a PM to Mark G., said he was not aware of this? and to send an email to Ozzie and CC himself. Did this twice and never a reply. So as a league operator I went through all the hassle of creating and running our session last year based on the guidelines and promises as set forth by CSI and then when time approaches to play the events they reneged and changed the format thus eliminating us from playing. Why did I send them all that money for our league then? And in addition our one other local CSI event (Reno) went away with no warning. Living in Ca.the most populous state in the country, this was our closest event and we have no regional event.

 

[cardiac kid]

I was on one of those 14 Platinum Teams. It was disappointing to see the turnout but I won't blame that on Fargo. It seems as players get better, they think they deserve a free pass or they just don't think it's fair to have a tough draw and play against good players. I like competition and 14 teams was really low.......
Our team went 2 and out which made for a short tourney for us. We came out and played a lil flat and our opponents took advantage of that.
My 3 man 9 Ball Platinum Team got 2nd so that was cool. We had a good run against some pretty good teams. Lost on the hot seat match hill/hill. We won our next match against a team from Utah who were extreme gentlemen in losing. My hat is off to them. Came back to duke it out with the Texas team again but came up short.... Our average Fargo was 628 and theirs was 614 but no matter, we were in the highest division so we expected to play good players. They played better than us in both matches and deserved 1st place

Next year I'm already putting a new team together. I will be the highest rated player and I'm going to play in the Gold Team event. This year there was 422 teams, much more competition. Maybe our team will have a good run, who knows?

Chris,

Many years ago, the Masters team division had fewer teams than that. We played a round robin format. At least you got to play half a dozen or more matches. Last year the Advanced division had 19 teams. The year before it was 31 teams. There is a message there somewhere.

Lyn

 

[RSCA HOOLIGAN]

The RIO sucks !!! insane prices and the food sucks .

The best division to play in is the division that has got the most players !
why ? this division got the most payout .
problem ? nobody will be motivated to become a better player because everybody is scared to end up in a higher division where there's less money to win . And also easy for sharks who during the year loose some matches on purpose to get their fargo rating in the GOLD division wich now has the best payout .

the highest payout should be in the highest division wich is the ADVANCED , after that the GOLD and so on .
This way you motivate players to become better players and try to get in the highest division possible where there is the most cash to win .

this is just my opininion .

 

[Put_upor_shutup]

With the US bar table championships being a csi event and being held at the Westgate this month it would leave me to believe maybe they are heading that direction.Apa is already there.We can only hope because I for one hate being isolated at The Rio.Also about the payouts.U had a pro event held there this week that had 53 players but paid 11k.Yet u had 422 teams with minimum 5 players ( most have 6).Each player has around 50$ to enter..around 2400 players.We are looking at over 100k here.Now first pays 8100.I know pro players have to eat also.I have plenty of friends that play pro pool but this tourney is sold as a league championship.The bread and butter of this tourney comes from league players/dues/green fees/hotel rooms/buying merchandise and food.Yet they have money taken out of their event instead of added.Why should they be the ones to suffer after keeping the event alive.Now for my team they were happy just to compete.Its not about the money to them because they are working guys.Still dosent take away from the fact that it isnt fair. They have a US Open bar table event this month that is a pro event.I dont think the pro event draw any more ppl to the bca then were already gonna be there.With that being said I think they should make the league nationals for the league players.My team won a first in platinum 9 ball..300 dollar entry.16 teams.Thats 4800 .1st was 1900.Total pay out was 5150 so they actually added 350 to this event.We got 3rd in the gold 8 ball.It paid 3600 .Thats 27 xs the amount of teams way less money.Just curious about the breakdown.sorry for the rant

 

[BasementDweller]

Why are the entries slowly going down every year?

Whenever payouts are discussed it seems it's an either or proposition. You are either considered an entitled, whiney, complaining pool player, or you're just there for a good time and you don't really care about the money. I feel like I'm right in the middle of this group. I have never attended the National BCAPL event but I think it fair to say it is billed as the premier League event of the year and rightly so. So for a team to win one of these events and come home with not much to show for it seems out of line.

The players I talk to locally feel this way at this point. I think in the past there was several different reasons to attend this event. Chasing some money was one reason. Heck, it's in a Casino of all places isn't it? Now it seems the BCAPL is only interested in getting the "going there to have a good time" crowd.

If payouts keep going down so will the entries.

 

[watchez]

Many good ideas/thoughts in this thread. I hope Mark G. is listening.

Saint1 - don't be offended. I sent Ozzy a couple of polite emails and never got a straight answer.

I simply wanted to know if the UTG shirts were ok to wear at the BCAPL nationals. The rules really didn't say. And obviously UTG is becoming more and more involved in pool with their shirts used for Mosconi Cup, Atlantic Cup, etc. It was a yes or no question. I am associated with UTG in another endeavor outside of pool and wanted to wear their shirts to show my support to them. Anyways, when I couldn't get a yes or no answer - the owner of UTG - Charles - at my request and persistence, reached out to the BCAPL and finally go the shirts approved. He also decided to set up a booth at the BCAPL (more money for the BCAPL) as I told him this was a whole new market he could get into with 1000s of league players and custom team jerseys. Now next year, Charles told me that they are going to be one of the title sponsors of the event (more more money for the BCAPL). Glad I could help. And I guess I work commission free.

And Charles is not one afraid to spend his money to support, promote or even run an event. Google RedEye Rhino (his original brand) and see what he has done for darts. Hopefully next year they kick Marty the annoying jump cue salesman out of the main room, put him in the hall and give Charles a better booth.

 

[nine_ball6970]

Why are the entries slowly going down every year?

Whenever payouts are discussed it seems it's an either or proposition. You are either considered an entitled, whiney, complaining pool player, or you're just there for a good time and you don't really care about the money. I feel like I'm right in the middle of this group. I have never attended the National BCAPL event but I think it fair to say it is billed as the premier League event of the year and rightly so. So for a team to win one of these events and come home with not much to show for it seems out of line.

The players I talk to locally feel this way at this point. I think in the past there was several different reasons to attend this event. Chasing some money was one reason. Heck, it's in a Casino of all places isn't it? Now it seems the BCAPL is only interested in getting the "going there to have a good time" crowd.

If payouts keep going down so will the entries.

I think Captain hit the nail on the head in many ways in the original post. The Rio is in a pretty poor location with terrible rooms that are overpriced. They gouge you on everything food/drink related because unless you have a car, you are basically stuck at the Rio. I think being at the Rio has more to do with the decline in attendance every year.

I think of Vegas and think reasonable prices on food/drinks because they want to keep you there to gamble. Doesn't seem to be the case with the Rio because their competition isn't within walking distance in late July for the average person. The Rio doesn't have to do much to keep you in the hotel.

It is a casino but spending 1k minimum on travel, hotel, and food for a week before buying any drinks or gambling is more than lots of players really want to fork out. I have had friends say if they are going to spend that amount of money on vacation, they would rather go to a beach or something rather than a casino where it is 110 degrees outside.

 

[tbayplayer]

"............

 

[Captain18]

It would really be nice to hear thoughts from CSI/BCA and Mr. Page on this, I sent them my initial post in an email last night.

The 2 teams that finished 1st and 2nd in the gold bracket were all "non established players", as in none of them have 200 games robustness if you look them up in Fargo. most of them had less than 50 games robustness... 2 of the players actually had 0 robustness.... only 1 player was over 600 cap, (628) and the rest were all between 503-565 with the exception of 1 player who is a 40...?? (I'm guessing that is a mistake in the system).

I'm not saying these players/teams are cheating, I'm sure they played very well and deserved to win. Congrats to both teams . My team finished in the $ last year and it was a hard road, and we went out early this year. Getting far in the brackets is definitely an accomplishment!

My statement is aimed at the idea of perhaps there needs to be a better way to give players a "starting "rate that is more accurate.
One would assume that the winner of the division would be the team who was very close to the cap limit if the rating system was working properly. A team with 2-3 players in the 600-630 range and 2-3 players in the 550-590 range would be expected to win.

 

[sbpoolleague]

Mine and the rest of our league's $0.02.....

We would love it if the dates were changed so that the temperature is under 100 for the event. Mid-may was so awesome.

Fargo ratings are the greatest thing to happen to amateur pocket billiards. I stood in many lines and smoked outside with many people and listened to everyone talking about Fargo and I did not hear one complaint. Everyone seemed to like Fargo even though it was new and had a few glitches. Maybe I wasn't around when the naysayers were out whining.

For those that don't like Rio prices...why aren't you staying at the Gold Coast? Of the 50 players from our league about 1/3 stay at the Gold Coast and they love it. I walk over there all the time for the buffet or the cheap hot dogs or the cheaper table games. The drink ladies come around OFTEN. Tip one $5 and she will sit on your lap, practically.

Of course CSI doesn't like it when we stay elsewhere, but I say too bad. There are a lot of people that just cannot afford $88.48 / $144.48 per night. I'll side with the players on this issue.

I had a very nice room in the Masquerade tower and did not see any of the crustiness people have mentioned. Of course I get 5 nights comped because I gamble a lot and the free rooms always look nicer than the ones you pay for :wink:

Most of my complaints about the tourneys have to do with the women. Why is it that men can but women cannot wear (reasonable length) shorts??? THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!! Women should be able to wear Bermuda shorts. Women burned culotte pants with their bras in the 70s. The BCAPL should modernize their view of women. Pool is not weight lifting for Christ sake.

Ozzy/Mark, If this women & shorts policy is not changed for next year you can expect weekly phone calls from me until it is changed.

Starting the women's singles tourneys at 8pm??? 9am is bad but 8pm is horrible. All of our league's women will be playing next year in the mixed event if this does not change.

Is there any way to track how many times a player gets stuck with a 9am match? We had several players who had 9am matches everyday.

For those that didn't like the tourney room drink Nazis...go out the door, around to the smoking area doors, come in, turn left, and enter the tourney room while bypassing both Nazis. EZPZ.

That new talking/coaching rule in scotch double is TERRIBLE! It makes the matches waaaaaay too long.

There should be more pro involvement with the amateurs like there was with the workshop tables.

Challenge the pros was missing...a lot of people looked forward to that. Can we bring that back??

We'd like to see more women pros at the event.

 

[mikepage]

[...]
But doesn't moving people down only then screw the people in that lower bracket? [...]

Yes, if the moved player actually plays above the speed of the lower bracket.

In the past a player who had a couple lackluster years could petition to be bumped down.

But the purpose of this policy was not to throw that unfortunate player a nice bone to make up for the bad years; rather, the fear is maybe the player never really belonged in the upper division, and the tournament results are just some evidence of that.

Now we have a lot more knowledge of the actual speed of the player. If the player really plays at the lower level, the player will get in the lower level. But if the player really plays at the speed of the higher level, the player belongs at the higher level.

It does not make sense to have a whole division of, say players rated 500-600 and then add the occasional 640 player because you feel bad about their poor fortune in a couple events.

 

[sbpoolleague]

Yes, if the moved player actually plays above the speed of the lower bracket.

In the past a player who had a couple lackluster years could petition to be bumped down.

But the purpose of this policy was not to throw that unfortunate player a nice bone to make up for the bad years; rather, the fear is maybe the player never really belonged in the upper division, and the tournament results are just some evidence of that.

Now we have a lot more knowledge of the actual speed of the player. If the player really plays at the lower level, the player will get in the lower level. But if the player really plays at the speed of the higher level, the player belongs at the higher level.

It does not make sense to have a whole division of, say players rated 500-600 and then add the occasional 640 player because you feel bad about their poor fortune in a couple events.

I certainly hope CSI is moving quickly in the direction of only allowing players into lower divisions that have fully established Fargo ratings. Otherwise what's the point of having them at all?

To do this effectively leagues must be put on notice NOW that they need to submit every game from every player into the Fargo system.

 

[T-dog]

I certainly hope CSI is moving quickly in the direction of only allowing players into lower divisions that have fully established Fargo ratings. Otherwise what's the point of having them at all?

To do this effectively leagues must be put on notice NOW that they need to submit every game from every player into the Fargo system.

I complained initially....then miraculously..I played well but, there were only 132 players in Platinum division. My awesome play...got me $200 for 17th. What a joke.

I guess I was rated properly but for a National tournament, in the highest division....after entry and membership fee. I NET $15. good thing there were whores or the whole trip would have been a bust.

 

[BRussell]

To do this effectively leagues must be put on notice NOW that they need to submit every game from every player into the Fargo system.

That's a good point. Hopefully this year everyone will be using FargoRate for their leagues during the year. This years' nationals used FargoRate before everyone was using it for league seasons, which caused more reliance on starter ratings than hopefully will be necessary in the future.

 

[sbpoolleague]

I complained initially....then miraculously..I played well but, there were only 132 players in Platinum division. My awesome play...got me $200 for 17th. What a joke.

I guess I was rated properly but for a National tournament, in the highest division....after entry and membership fee. I NET $15. good thing there were whores or the whole trip would have been a bust.

I want to party with you next year.