Regarding construction and playability.

poolpro said:
I have had this conversation many times before. In my opinion it comes down to this: People like the idea of a "handmade cue". It feels more "special" because someone took more time to make it. It is a fondness for a traditional item. Like old handmade furniture. People appreciate the "old world" feel of methods coming from a simpler time. I think this leads to many misconceptions.

First off "hand made" is ridiculous. I do not know any cuemkers sitting down with a pocket knife and a couple of carving tools and whittlling down a length of wood into a cue. So no cue is hand made. Cuemaking is an art in my opinion. The art is in the design and execution of that design by whatever means gets a superior product. A CNC cue is still made much like a non CNC cue untill you get to the inlays. Everyone on here knows that inlays do not add ANYTHING to the playability of a cue. So why would it matter how you decorate a quality cue? At what point in its construction does this cue "become" less than a handmade cue?

I have been in various trades for most of my life. I have worked in assembly line factories, I have done custom woodworking and carpentry. I have a knowledge of design and manufacturing. My simple question is why would you fault a craftsman for using the finest tools and techniques available to him? For all of you tradinalists out there, do you think that the people making things the "old world " way did so because they wanted to do things the hard way, or because it was the best method they had available at the time?

I LOVE THIS LINE OF THOUGHT, BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ESSENTIALLY A "TOOL". SO WHILE TALKING ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT HAVING THE BEST AVAILABLE "TOOL" FOR US TO USE, WE SAY THAT USING THE BEST AVAILABLE TOOLS IS NOT IMPORTANT, AND SHOULD BE DISCOURAGED. DOES ANYBODY ELSE SEE THIS AS CRAZY?

It is the same reason why people appreciate classic cars. It brings back all the great memories of a simpler time. Even though we now have fuel injection, anti lock brakes and air bags, these new cars just don't have the same "charm". This is a PERCEPTION. This is not an issue of quality. In this example, it is a mass produced item. Thousands of chevys were made, all identical to each other. We are not appreciting anything hand made at all. There is a perception that they don't make em like they used to.

I have done the same woodworking jobs with and without the best tools available to me. In each case I have done the best job that I was able to do to deliver best quality product to my customer. I used to build custom cabinets and countertops. At one time I pretty much had a handfull of hand tools and a router table, and a bench saw. I got the job done, no complaints. Later on I had a shop full of tools and machines. I was able to do the same things much better and faster than I ever could have before. The end result was a BETTER product in less time. I had gigantic sanders, and shapers. These were MORE precise and faster. The sanders were still using sand paper against the wood, but more consistant and less time. Why would you possibly care if I held that piece of sandpaper in my hand or not?

Let's suppose you hire two carpenters to come to your house and due the trim in two different rooms. One shows up with a hand saw, a miter box, hammer and nails, the other shows up with a power compound miter saw, a nail gun, and a compressor. Who are you going to hire? Now, the first guy will be done in a day, the other guy will take much longer.

I just think it is weird that when it comes to cues, precision is what most people are looking for, but when there is a way to increase precision, people say "why would I want that?".

Do you want a cuemaker who uses a micrometer or a "that looks pretty close to me" attitude? Pool has been around a long time. Longer than vulcanized rubber. I think we should all boycott rubber cushions. I think knowing a predictable rebound angle is for the young kids. Just a passing fad. Lets play my game: ivory balls, no rubber cushions, no leather cue tips, no woven cloth. Let's really get traditional.

I FEAR CHANGE! :D

I love tradition. I appreciate it for what it is. I drool over classic cars, antique cues, and vintage guitars. Just don't knock a craftsman for trying to give his customers the best quality product that he knows how to in the most practical way he can. Most of the people in any industry who are remebered are the pioneers. Why? Because they were always searching to find a new, better way to do something. They develop new methods and strive to make a btter product. What kills me is the most well known cuemaker BOUGHT his blanks from other makers ( talk about saving time!).

Again, no disrespect to anyone. If you "feel" that the more primitive the better than go ahead. I have a pocket knife, and some time to kill, anyone want a cue?

I agree with you 100%. There are two types of cues. Tools to be used for moving balls around and collectors, to sit in cabinets and look pretty. I build tools, the others can build the collectors. I've got nothing against the use of CNCs. I've got nothing against the use of Pantomills. I've got nothing against the use of exacto-knives and chisels. Through the use of these different tools you will get different results however. With the exacto knives and chisels you can have sharp pointed, clean inlays but some times not perfect glue lines. With the proper use of a CNC you can have slightly rounded points in inlays but they can be sharpened with the hand method of the exacto knife. With a Pantomill you get larger rounded corners on inlays as they have great difficulty using the finer cutters that can be used in a CNC which has controlled movement but these corners, just like the CNC corners, can be cleaned up and made sharp with the use of the hand held exacto knife.
The only thing that upsets me is when someone claims that the use of a Pantomill is manual while a CNC is machined. To me, this is a sign of someone who hasn't the knowledge to operate one or can't afford the use of one. It really takes a lot of skill to push a handle around. Ranks right up there with sweeping the floor or taking out the garbage. I also say CNC is machined but I also say Pantomill is machined. They use the same cutters and in fact if some one wanted to they could have a Pantomill one day , mount some motors and the next day have it CNC. They both do exactly the same thing, the only difference is the pattern that they follow. As far as I'm concerned, the only hand work is with chisels and knives.
I use to have a Pantomill but I have sold it and now use CNC. My cues look nice and play well but the time consuming factors have been eliminated. I seldom sharpen my inlays with an exacto but I charge accordingly. If you are looking for those kind of details then I'm not your man but then again I sell my cues for half of the prices of cues with these details. Could I do them? of coarse but that is not my market. People who want good playing instruments at a very affordable price is who my customers are and they are usually happy

Dick
 
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rhncue said:
I agree with you 100%. There are two types of cues. Tools to be used for moving balls around and collectors, to sit in cabinets and look pretty. I build tools, the others can build the collectors. I've got nothing against the use of CNCs. I've got nothing against the use of Pantomills. I've got nothing against the use of exacto-knives and chisels. Through the use of these different tools you will get different results however. With the exacto knives and chisels you can have sharp pointed, clean inlays but some times not perfect glue lines. With the proper use of a CNC you can have slightly rounded points in inlays but they can be sharpened with the hand method of the exacto knife. With a Pantomill you get larger rounded corners on inlays as they have great difficulty using the finer cutters that can be used in a CNC which has controlled movement but these corners, just like the CNC corners, can be cleaned up and made sharp with the use of the hand held exacto knife.
The only thing that upsets me is when someone claims that the use of a Pantomill is manual while a CNC is machined. To me, this is a sign of someone who hasn't the knowledge to operate one or can't afford the use of one. It really takes a lot of skill to push a handle around. Ranks right up there with sweeping the floor or taking out the garbage. I also say CNC is machined but I also say Pantomill is machined. They use the same cutters and in fact if some one wanted to they could have a Pantomill one day , mount some motors and the next day have it CNC. They both do exactly the same thing, the only difference is the pattern that they follow. As far as I'm concerned, the only hand work is with chisels and knives.
I use to have a Pantomill but I have sold it and now use CNC. My cues look nice and play well but the time consuming factors have been eliminated. I seldom sharpen my inlays with an exacto but I charge accordingly. If you are looking for those kind of details then I'm not your man but then again I sell my cues for half of the prices of cues with these details. Could I do them? of coarse but that is not my market. People who want good playing instruments at a very affordable price is who my customers are and they are always happy

Dick

Sorry. I could not lay low. I only post : Tap, tap, tap

N
 
rhncue said:
I agree with you 100%. There are two types of cues. Tools to be used for moving balls around and collectors, to sit in cabinets and look pretty. I build tools, the others can build the collectors. I've got nothing against the use of CNCs. I've got nothing against the use of Pantomills. I've got nothing against the use of exacto-knives and chisels. Through the use of these different tools you will get different results however. With the exacto knives and chisels you can have sharp pointed, clean inlays but some times not perfect glue lines. With the proper use of a CNC you can have slightly rounded points in inlays but they can be sharpened with the hand method of the exacto knife. With a Pantomill you get larger rounded corners on inlays as they have great difficulty using the finer cutters that can be used in a CNC which has controlled movement but these corners, just like the CNC corners, can be cleaned up and made sharp with the use of the hand held exacto knife.
The only thing that upsets me is when someone claims that the use of a Pantomill is manual while a CNC is machined. To me, this is a sign of someone who hasn't the knowledge to operate one or can't afford the use of one. It really takes a lot of skill to push a handle around. Ranks right up there with sweeping the floor or taking out the garbage. I also say CNC is machined but I also say Pantomill is machined. They use the same cutters and in fact if some one wanted to they could have a Pantomill one day , mount some motors and the next day have it CNC. They both do exactly the same thing, the only difference is the pattern that they follow. As far as I'm concerned, the only hand work is with chisels and knives.
I use to have a Pantomill but I have sold it and now use CNC. My cues look nice and play well but the time consuming factors have been eliminated. I seldom sharpen my inlays with an exacto but I charge accordingly. If you are looking for those kind of details then I'm not your man but then again I sell my cues for half of the prices of cues with these details. Could I do them? of coarse but that is not my market. People who want good playing instruments at a very affordable price is who my customers are and they are always happy

Dick

Nice post, I am glad to have some back up with someone who knows more about cuemaking than I. I am not a cuemaker. I love and appriciate cues as an art, and respect cuemakers as I am very jealous of their profession. I do have first hand knowledge in construction, manufacturing and woodworking. I have been employed in a custom woodworking shop that had an inexpensive (about $20,000) CNC machine. Untill you have set one up from start to finish and used it to accurately complete a task, I will have a hard time believing you when you say it is so simple a monkey can do it. The learning curve is pretty great. Let me be clear about one thing. I am referring to CUSTOM cuemakers who are still making cues one at a time ( or in small batches with minor variations). NOT a cue manufacturer who sets up an assembly line once and cranks out the same product for a year or more.

Just as we all agree that having a nice custom cue ( a great set of tools) will not make you a great player, likewise having all the best tools in your shop does not make you a great cuemaker!

Guess what? All of the respected cuemakers on here have their own way of accomplishing their craft. Most (if not all) will have custom jigs and special set ups to do what they do the way they believe is the best way.
Now, just because they have all the right tools in their shop to do all the tasks at hand does not mean I could walk in there on my first day and pump out a cue! Knowledge and experience is what is required. CNC or not, the shop is not making the cues, the cuemaker is!

We are all on a computer communicating to each other. A computer does not think, it does what it is told. It will not do anything that it has not been given instructions to do( by a human). If sombody on here makes a really good point on this topic should I give the credit to their computer? You didn't REALLY come up with that on your own, it was your computer! I think all of us agree that this newfangled internet thing is a more convenient way to communicate and gather and store information than older methods. On second thought, anyone who wants to continue this debate should mail me their response sent by the tried and true US post office! It will take longer, and cost a lot more, but that is the way my grandfather did it, and darn it, that is good enough for me!

Look, as a kid I actually used my grandfathers woodworking tools. Handheld augers, miter box, chisels, etc. I was glad to have them, and believe me they got the job done. I still have many things that he made with these tools. If he was still around he would love to see some of the things I get to use!

Once again, I can use a piece of sandpaper, or a power sander. I can get good results with either. I could also screw up a project with either, if I lack knowledge or experience. A cue spinning on a lathe is machined, if you ask me. Correct me but a lathe is a machine, right? You have a spinning work piece, and a cutting tool which is moved incrementally by a turn wheel. So the operator is touching the control of the machine. He is not touching the work piece, or the cutting tool. He is not standing there holding a chisel and doing the taper by hand. Would you want him to? I know I wouldn't. ( I have seen guys who turn bowls in this fashion, it is interesting.) So the only thing that changes is that the cuemaker sat down and took a bunch of time to program the computer to tell the machine what to do. So a cuemaker is touching the controls on a machine, or he is touching the controls on a computer to touch the controls on the machine. I do not see a world of difference. I knew guys in the carpentry trade who thought that using a set of cordless power tools, and a nail gun was cheating and took away the "art" of carpentry. What is wrong with the old way? The answe is nothing is wrong with the old way, but there is nothing wrong with the new way either. Whatever way that you think will get the job done to your liking is the correct way. As a pool player ( and a cue buyer) you want the best tool for your purposes that is available to you. Is a cuemaker not allowed this same courtesy? I think the end result is the most important thing. If you have to ask if a CNC was used, it ceases to matter.

Once again, a tool does not make you a skilled user! I am not a golfer, you could give me the best set of clubs there are, I would still be terrible. A craftsman has their own standards and attention to detail. They will develop their reputation based on their self imposed standards of quality. How they get there should not be nearly as important as what they accomplish. If I tell you It took me 100 hours to make something, you may be impressed. You could admire the quality and attention to detail. Then I say it really only took me 25 hours, has the quality of the produst suddenly become less?
 
manwon said:
I totally agree Joey, they would be Dead Nuts, and in the long run they would also be worth about as much as Dead Nuts. While CNC'd equipment can certainly be an asset to any cue maker. I also think that the current Market shows that cue makers who are using the Traditional methods of construction are still the most sought after. When I spoke to Bill Schick the other day about the Paradise cue I posted on this site, CNC machinery entered our conversion. Bill stated very plainly that he had considered buying some of this equipment himself sometime ago. However, he was told in no uncertain terms by his customers that they did not want cues built using this technology. So to this day he builds his cues traditionally, without the aid of this equipment.

Have a good day Joey!!!


i agree with that, i like old school cues built the hardway,
 
Fatboy said:
i agree with that, i like old school cues built the hardway,

If I made a CNC pocket with a some really intricate designs which was rounded in it's edges.

Then I cut a inlay fitting this intricate pocket.

And then I hand sharpen the pockets edges/points and hand sharpen the oversized inlay to fit the new ultra sharp pocket
- producing a unique inlay with ultra sharp points - would this be old school in you're eyes?
Would this be good enough to be called "custom" ?

Or is the only acceptable way of doing this ; hand carving the pocket and hand cutting the inlay ? If so, how many cuemakers is doing this today?

N
 
JoeyInCali said:
I also think that the current Market shows that cue makers who are using the Traditional methods of construction are still the most sought after.
You mean V-points as opposed to cnc'd inlayed points?
I think Schick, Bender, SW, DPK, Tascarella, Hercek and Barry S. might be the most prominent non cnc'rs today.
I believe Searing, Wayne, Lambros, Gina, Tad, Stroud and Black all use cnc.

I really don't know if a cnc fullsplice will have less value.

Hello JoeyInCali,

Just thought you may not be aware that Dennis Searing does not use a CNC in the construction of his cues and never has. He will use his CNC to cut inlay pockets and inlay parts, but never in construction.

Here is a general comment: I prefer traditional construction of a cue and at the same time if a cuemaker wants to do whatever method he chooses for construction that's fine by me. I have played with cues in many different prices ranges and different methods of construction and have found redeeming qualites in many.

Each and every cuemaker chooses his path as to the methods of construction and I personlly wouldn't count him out or not play with a cue because it was CNC construction., actually it would be foolish not to give CNC cues a try, you could just come across the best hitting cue you have ever played with.

It never hurts to have an open mind.

Scott
 
Nice Thread!

This was discussed in a german forum lately and some CNC cuemakers commented that they had to "lough" by reading this. !Maybe! they loughed as i commentated that i DONT like CNC cues.

In Germany 2 of 3 of the better known Cuemakers use CNC. Its Eurowest and Arthur. Michael Vollmer does deep knived in points (like BB Tony does).

Most german cue owners are not aware of the difference AT ALL! Even if there are good reasons that they do not have to be aware, i PERSONALLY really dont like CNC points in any of my cues AT ALL!!!




If you translate the word "point" to german you gonna get a word that implicates sharpness by the nature meaning of the word.


So if a cuemaker builts cues with "round" tips by the use of a cnc this some kind of suspects me that he does it because A) He cant do it in another way B) He does it because he can produce more cues, ergo make more money, this way. (!!!!!! ITS JUST WHAT I PERSONALLY SUSPECT.... i may be wrong!!!!)


Why i`m thinking this? Its just because i`m asking myself from a distant perspective: If i was a cuemaker and wanted to built perfectly nice quality cues WHY would i built it in a way in which the points dont get damn sharp???????


This question may sound a bit primitive but it gets less if you ask an additional question:


WHAT is the advantage of building a CNC cue? ( i mean everything but NOT the advantages the cuemaker has when building the cue!!! This is meaningless to me!! I`m only watching the RESULT.... and if i pay mutch money i want the builder TO SPARE NO EFFORD to get the perfect result!!!!!!!!!! )


While a CNC cuts points or pockets the cuemaker even doesn`t have to be present while this happens! If i`m not mistaking, turning down a cue needs the presents of the cuemaker!


You can give me the choice between the "highest end" ;) CNC cue worth 5000 bucks and a simple hoppe style """hand crafted""" cue... if i wasnt alowed to resale it i`d always take the """hand crafted""" one!


There is absolutely NOTHING wrong in giving traditionally handcrafted products that had a lot of efford in their building more respect!


I made some statements here and it was pretty hard for me to do this in english... i really hope my words do make sense at all!

Best regards,

Nossi
 
Just thought you may not be aware that Dennis Searing does not use a CNC in the construction of his cues and never has. He will use his CNC to cut inlay pockets and inlay parts, but never in construction.
Thanks, but how do you define "construction"?
I really don't know how a cnc can be part of contruction?
Tapering? Threading?
I don't know anyone threading and/or boring holes with a cnc on cues yet.
 
good point Joey,i was wondering exactly what he eant by construction also.there is a way to make CNC points sharp and it is actuall more time consuming than spliced points.the bit is so small that you have to travel at very slow speeds so the bit doesn't break.

i really doubt anyone here could tell any difference in a cue built with v-points and a cue built with CNC points.i have heard people say that the V-points are more solid.i don't know if that is true or not.i don't see how it could be true,but you never know.i think v-splice points that aren't perfect or have glue problems would be weaker for sure.the flat bottm points are only .125" pockets cut into the original solid piece of wood.

all that said,i know cue buyers want v points so if i were to make pointed cues that is what i would make,but i think the flat bottom points cut with a .015" look great and are very sharp also as a bonus the points will all line up dead nuts everytime,somehting that can't be said for spliced points.

if i was the buyer,to me it wouldn't really matter which method was used as long as the points are sharp.

as far as giving v point more respect i don't understand that completely.i don't think they are any harder than cutting flat bottom points with sharp edges.it takes hours to cut them with the small bits,and they look right,especially into darker woods.
 
masonh said:
good point Joey,i was wondering exactly what he eant by construction also.there is a way to make CNC points sharp and it is actuall more time consuming than spliced points.the bit is so small that you have to travel at very slow speeds so the bit doesn't break.

i really doubt anyone here could tell any difference in a cue built with v-points and a cue built with CNC points.i have heard people say that the V-points are more solid.i don't know if that is true or not.i don't see how it could be true,but you never know.i think v-splice points that aren't perfect or have glue problems would be weaker for sure.the flat bottm points are only .125" pockets cut into the original solid piece of wood.

all that said,i know cue buyers want v points so if i were to make pointed cues that is what i would make,but i think the flat bottom points cut with a .015" look great and are very sharp also as a bonus the points will all line up dead nuts everytime,somehting that can't be said for spliced points.

if i was the buyer,to me it wouldn't really matter which method was used as long as the points are sharp.

as far as giving v point more respect i don't understand that completely.i don't think they are any harder than cutting flat bottom points with sharp edges.it takes hours to cut them with the small bits,and they look right,especially into darker woods.
V-points take more skill I think b/c you will have to join that half-splice to a handle and line up the points dead nuts.
With flat-bottom points, they can be done after the cue has all been assembled.
That's why I think v-points get more respect/regard even if they are cnc'd v-points.
 
manwon said:
...Today, full-splice cues that I have seen have flat bottomed points, by all cue makers, whether they are short spliced or full-spliced....

Just my thoughts.
I do not agree to all your statements. You can find other cue makers with perfect Vs at the bottom. Here's one of my "not so" Sneaky Petes from BCM (Bryan Mordt):


nossi: Several customers in Germany know the differencies as well. I think so... ;-)
 
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Darnit DrPool when are you going to sell me one of those twins? LOL j/k. I always love seeing those cues Brian made for you!!
 
Wow DrPool your specs on those cues are basically my ideal specs too :)

lighter than 19 oz, 59" length, 30 mil butt and 1.25 tip! nice going, beautiful designs too, no excessive detail!

superb!

Oliver
 
Thanks, Oliver.
Both twins will be traditional full splice cues without coring. Finally, in addition to http://www.volkerfabian.de/Castor_Pollux.pdf I'd like to own a SP quartet made of wood from four continents combined with four colours and different varieties of maple as well.

A forearm of solid quilted maple will be an experiment for sure. This olive cue will stay as an collectors piece if it's not playable enough...
 
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Qulited Maple is stronger than most people give it credit for,but as a solid forearm the diameter would need to be pretty large to make it rigid enough.i guess at .860" or a little bigger it might work.as far as movement it is no more prone than hard Maple to move,but the Olivewood at 24"+ is probably not going to be very stable.

you never know though.wood is weird,it may stay dead straight and play like a champ.
 
Thanks for the infos about quilted maple!
I've picked up the olivewood by myself from a local wood supplier and forwarded it to BCM. It's not african but european (bethlehem) wood, more than 500 years old. It has a very high density and the weight is bigger than ebony (ratio of 1.1). Beside it's very firm and even acid-resistant. Well, let's see how it stand the test...;)

Pictures of the wood before I've sent it to Bryan:
http://www.billard-aktuell.de/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6735&start=124
History of origins:
http://www.billard-aktuell.de/modul...pic&t=6735&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=103
 
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All of the good looking Quilted Maple I've ever seen has been Western Big Leaf Maple and is really to light and soft for use in a prong without being cored with a harder, stouter wood. It feels more like a burl than a Maple.

Dick
 
masonh said:
Qulited Maple is stronger than most people give it credit for,but as a solid forearm the diameter would need to be pretty large to make it rigid enough.i guess at .860" or a little bigger it might work.as far as movement it is no more prone than hard Maple to move,but the Olivewood at 24"+ is probably not going to be very stable.

you never know though.wood is weird,it may stay dead straight and play like a champ.

FYI - there is a 'hard Eastern' version of Quilted Maple.
Tho usually not nearly as spectacular as the Big Leaf,
it is a solid choice for a forearm, something I would never
use Big Leaf for.

I have some Eastern Quilted that will make your eyes spin.

Dale
 
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