Remarks by Kevin Trudeau: Interesting Stuff!
- Thread starter JAM
- Start date
Before I start I would like to put it on record that I am a big supporter of both Kevin Trudeau and Deno Andrews. I was in attendance at the KOTH event (as Deno's guest) and found everything exceeded my expectations. No corners were cut and it now it seems that no stone has been left unturned as they progress into the continuing tour scene.
Kevin's remarks relating to 'other organisations' appear primarily directed at the BCA and may carry some credence. But they were never set up to be a player's organisation and they only represent the interests of the North American industry. Yes, they probably did exploit the players - but that was their perogative. With the coming of Mark Griffin and the BCA League Program I assume that his independence and stated interest in the players will go some way to redressing this at the sub pro level.
As far as other promoters and organisations go, I do not know of any other major promoters or organisations who have exploited the players. Barry Hearn (Matchroom Sport) and Ian Anderson (WPA) are perhaps two in the firing line.
Barry has been involved in pool for over fifteen years and for nearly half of that time he has invested in the sport for negative financial returns. Now the figures are positive shouldn't he receive some benefit for his faith in the game.
Ian Anderson enjoys a modest lifestyle which some would envy. But he could probably be much more financially stable using his executive skills in another field of endeavour.
Matt Braun is another name that springs to mind. I do not know his financial position but it strikes me that he is in the same boat as Barry Hearn. He put his money where his mouth was when the game needed it.
Barry Behrman and the US Open - another contender? Over quarter of a century of achievement before an Act of God sent his reputation downhill. His financial woes are well documented but what about all the good things that came before. I don't suppose that he set himself up for life from the proceeds of the US Open.
And in the USA alone - the Regional Tours and their organisers. Were they exploiters? Mike Zuglan (Joss), Mike Janis (Viking), John di Toro (Florida), John McChesney (McDermott) or Johnny Mac (Tri State) didn't seem like that they were in it for what they could make.
Further afield - Mr Tu, the powerhouse behind the growth of the game in Asia does it for the buzz. Nobody could say that Chao, Yang, Hsia or CC Wu are exploited. Quite the other way with the bonuses that their government reward their international achievements.
Horst Vondenhoff, a German with a vision who founded the Euro Tour. Now a background figure on the European scene. But he was still sweeping chimneys when he was EPBF President.
Eventually, to myself. I spent twelve years running the UK Pro 9 Ball Tour.
Over 200 events plus World 9 Ball Championship qualifiers. It certainly wasn't for the money but for the sheer enjoyment of creating the game in the UK.
The World Team Billiards British Conference in the early 90s which brought the game to UK television for the first time.
The British Open at Brighton where Oliver Ortmann won $6000.
The 1999 World Professional 9 Ball Championship - thanks to Barry Hearn.
The Fujairah 8 Ball Challenge - where Alex Lely won a Bar of Gold. The forerunner of the WPA World 8 Ball Championship.
My events, with over two million dollars in prize money. It doesn't sound so good up against the fabulous IPT prize funds, but it was all we could get.
I paid for the privilege over the period, subsidising events from my own pocket just to keep the game going. But I enjoy it and I would do it again - maybe! My only comment would be that the player has no Divine Right to be given money. He only receives it because of the time and money invested by promoters. Try reading Eydie Romano's excellent article on the tournament promoters viewpoint.
Perhaps there should be a Hall of Fame for promoters. I could think of a few more names to join those above -
Allen Hopkins for the wonderful Valley Forge (I was at his original expo in Secaucus).
C J Wiley, the promising PCA Tour, derailed by an insurance company failing to pay out Earl Strickland's Milllion For Ten Racks.
Grady Matthews - for recycling the Ring Game.
Maurice Houben and Jogen Vanya two other European stalwarts.
Ahmed and Hisham in the Middle East.
Aristeo Puyatt, the Filipino Godfather of Pool.
All these people (and certainly a few that I have missed) have contributed in keeping the game going to the point where Kevin's wealth can help it make that Quantum Leap to join tennis and golf as top 'one to one' sports.
Kevin's remarks relating to 'other organisations' appear primarily directed at the BCA and may carry some credence. But they were never set up to be a player's organisation and they only represent the interests of the North American industry. Yes, they probably did exploit the players - but that was their perogative. With the coming of Mark Griffin and the BCA League Program I assume that his independence and stated interest in the players will go some way to redressing this at the sub pro level.
As far as other promoters and organisations go, I do not know of any other major promoters or organisations who have exploited the players. Barry Hearn (Matchroom Sport) and Ian Anderson (WPA) are perhaps two in the firing line.
Barry has been involved in pool for over fifteen years and for nearly half of that time he has invested in the sport for negative financial returns. Now the figures are positive shouldn't he receive some benefit for his faith in the game.
Ian Anderson enjoys a modest lifestyle which some would envy. But he could probably be much more financially stable using his executive skills in another field of endeavour.
Matt Braun is another name that springs to mind. I do not know his financial position but it strikes me that he is in the same boat as Barry Hearn. He put his money where his mouth was when the game needed it.
Barry Behrman and the US Open - another contender? Over quarter of a century of achievement before an Act of God sent his reputation downhill. His financial woes are well documented but what about all the good things that came before. I don't suppose that he set himself up for life from the proceeds of the US Open.
And in the USA alone - the Regional Tours and their organisers. Were they exploiters? Mike Zuglan (Joss), Mike Janis (Viking), John di Toro (Florida), John McChesney (McDermott) or Johnny Mac (Tri State) didn't seem like that they were in it for what they could make.
Further afield - Mr Tu, the powerhouse behind the growth of the game in Asia does it for the buzz. Nobody could say that Chao, Yang, Hsia or CC Wu are exploited. Quite the other way with the bonuses that their government reward their international achievements.
Horst Vondenhoff, a German with a vision who founded the Euro Tour. Now a background figure on the European scene. But he was still sweeping chimneys when he was EPBF President.
Eventually, to myself. I spent twelve years running the UK Pro 9 Ball Tour.
Over 200 events plus World 9 Ball Championship qualifiers. It certainly wasn't for the money but for the sheer enjoyment of creating the game in the UK.
The World Team Billiards British Conference in the early 90s which brought the game to UK television for the first time.
The British Open at Brighton where Oliver Ortmann won $6000.
The 1999 World Professional 9 Ball Championship - thanks to Barry Hearn.
The Fujairah 8 Ball Challenge - where Alex Lely won a Bar of Gold. The forerunner of the WPA World 8 Ball Championship.
My events, with over two million dollars in prize money. It doesn't sound so good up against the fabulous IPT prize funds, but it was all we could get.
I paid for the privilege over the period, subsidising events from my own pocket just to keep the game going. But I enjoy it and I would do it again - maybe! My only comment would be that the player has no Divine Right to be given money. He only receives it because of the time and money invested by promoters. Try reading Eydie Romano's excellent article on the tournament promoters viewpoint.
Perhaps there should be a Hall of Fame for promoters. I could think of a few more names to join those above -
Allen Hopkins for the wonderful Valley Forge (I was at his original expo in Secaucus).
C J Wiley, the promising PCA Tour, derailed by an insurance company failing to pay out Earl Strickland's Milllion For Ten Racks.
Grady Matthews - for recycling the Ring Game.
Maurice Houben and Jogen Vanya two other European stalwarts.
Ahmed and Hisham in the Middle East.
Aristeo Puyatt, the Filipino Godfather of Pool.
All these people (and certainly a few that I have missed) have contributed in keeping the game going to the point where Kevin's wealth can help it make that Quantum Leap to join tennis and golf as top 'one to one' sports.
pro9dg said:
I do remember that post by Eydie Romano, and you are correct that it is right on point. The INDEPENDENT promoters are a dedicated bunch who have kept pool alive and well for many on the tournament trail.
pro9dg said:
I agree with you, Doug, and your post was OUTSTANDING. That is what I love about AzBilliards Discussion Forum. Your contribution not only is incredibly factual, but it provides food for thought to a layperson like me and is eye-opening. Thanks for posting on this thread!
JAM
Compare to Golf Yet Again
That's not the end of it. The PGA Tour and the LPGA Tour market personalities. They market the players, not the game. Pool has a number of colorful characters, but in the past they seemed to enjoy dressing them all up in little bowties to try to be "respectful." Where was the pizzazz? Where was the personality? Where was the punch?
A steak may be great, but without the sizzle, who's going to notice what a great steak you've got? The IPT promises both the sizzle and the steak.
The success of golf stems to a few people - long ago, Arnold Palmer and a few years later, Jack Nicklaus. Then people like John Daly. Tiger Woods. And so on...
Sure, you know the names of some players. You know that Earl has a bit of a "personality." But from what I've seen, most pool organizations have done all they can to temper that, to keep it quiet, or to down-play it through the years.
Were the guy a PGA Tour golfer, he'd still be respectful when necessary, but you darn well bet the crowd would know who he was.
I could refine my statement to say that the PGA Tour doesn't actively promote personality of one or a few players, but it doesn't do what the pool organizations have done to stamp it out, either.
sjm said:
That's not the end of it. The PGA Tour and the LPGA Tour market personalities. They market the players, not the game. Pool has a number of colorful characters, but in the past they seemed to enjoy dressing them all up in little bowties to try to be "respectful." Where was the pizzazz? Where was the personality? Where was the punch?
A steak may be great, but without the sizzle, who's going to notice what a great steak you've got? The IPT promises both the sizzle and the steak.
The success of golf stems to a few people - long ago, Arnold Palmer and a few years later, Jack Nicklaus. Then people like John Daly. Tiger Woods. And so on...
Sure, you know the names of some players. You know that Earl has a bit of a "personality." But from what I've seen, most pool organizations have done all they can to temper that, to keep it quiet, or to down-play it through the years.
Were the guy a PGA Tour golfer, he'd still be respectful when necessary, but you darn well bet the crowd would know who he was.
I could refine my statement to say that the PGA Tour doesn't actively promote personality of one or a few players, but it doesn't do what the pool organizations have done to stamp it out, either.
JAM said:In the words of the Rolling Stones: please don't let me be misunderstood.
Dave <== Whispering~~ Pssssst. Jen, the Animals sang that
Your whole post was excellent Doug. Expanding well upon a brief comment I made earlier in this thread.pro9dg said:
The promoters I've known, including myself, have worked very hard to try to get, even reasonably small events off the ground, mainly for the love of the sport and if they do well, or are lucky they might make a few dollars out of it, but likely significantly less than if we used our skills in other professions.
It's hard to blame product suppliers also. Most of them have tried sponsoring events with limited return on investment. Mainly because the events don't gain the exposure needed to make them valuable for high levels of sponsorships. It's not their expertise to try to build exposure for the sport with big investments into hosting events. Product companies almost invariably fail when they establish their own division to run events. They don't have the event running expertise. So they tend to sit back and wait for events to develop, making some small contributions such as player sponsorships, that they can use in their marketing with some success.
Can't blame the magazines either I don't think. I doubt there's a gold mine in that industry either. I've certainly seen a few start ups fail, so those that have managed to keep in the business have done so through ingenuity and hard work and deserve whatever they've been able to get out it.
I think for the whole, those in the industry have been positive contributors for the sport, and represent some of the most dedicated and intelligent people in the sport. But KT is has a level of resources, talent and connections that bring in a whole new set of economic dynamics.
Lets hope he succeeds and his support from those in the industry, and the players grow...along with the sport!
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Ripples
Beyond anything else, I think the IPT will have a ripple effect into the billiards industry. Players will now have extra cash to undertake their own pool-related ventures. By making massive payouts, Trudeau is actually reinvesting in the billiard industry -- something that he stands to gain from enormously with future sponsorships, endorsements, etc.
Beyond anything else, I think the IPT will have a ripple effect into the billiards industry. Players will now have extra cash to undertake their own pool-related ventures. By making massive payouts, Trudeau is actually reinvesting in the billiard industry -- something that he stands to gain from enormously with future sponsorships, endorsements, etc.
jjinfla said:
Actually, poker on TV is probably soon to be dead (thank God!). The only thing TV has done right with poker is overexpose it to death. Here's an excerpt from TVWeek.com:
TVWeek.com said:
Keep in mind that, due to poker's "success" in 2004, most channels airing poker events granted the events better time slots. Even with the better time slots, poker's ratings are consistently down double-digits across the board.
I sincerely hope that poker's "flash in the pan" popularity on TV doesn't translate to pool - I'd like for pool to stick around a lot longer.
-djb
Actually, Golf, and perhaps the entire sports business has Mark McCormack, founder of IMG, to thank.iacas said:
Without Mark McCormack, most of us today may never have heard of Arnold Palmer or Jack Nickaus. They'd be about as famous, and as rich as top pool players from the 70's.
Read: Mark McCormack (Super Agent)
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/nov2004/nf20041110_1752_db078.htm
JAM said:I agree with you, Doug, and your post was OUTSTANDING. That is what I love about AzBilliards Discussion Forum. Your contribution not only is incredibly factual, but it provides food for thought to a layperson like me and is eye-opening. Thanks for posting on this thread!
JAM
You should be in politics JAM ! It may just be the way I read this, but I sure got the impression that pro9dg posted as a rebuttal to the comment you made in your original post JAM : "Everyone in the world of pool is getting rich, making money, living the life of Riley, except the players."
Dave
Interesting stuff
Thanks Colin. Now that you are spending all that time practicing you could lose out on making the Promoter HOF.
Thanks Jen. Just think how many more biographies (endorsed by the IPT?) you could sell when Keith becomes a household name.
I take a great deal of interest in the IPT as (after the US) we have the biggest contingent of players - 18 UK born members. But it didn't need x-ray specs to see the way that Kevin would get a financial return. The videos were obvious - but to tape every match that was phenomenal.
He has hand picked industry associate to benefit from his marketing drive. Diamond were always a great table and rightfully their reputation will grow.
The new lightweight, user friendly Sardo Rack makes it's predecessor pre historic and works fine on a full rack of balls.
But cues, balls, cloth, chalk with the IPT name will put a few industry noses out of joint. Then could come the IPT Franchised Pool Room, that could raise the bar!
For years I have been hearing the cry - What this game needs is a benevolent billionaire. Well he has arrived, make the most of it. Mike Sigel has and fair play to him
Thanks Colin. Now that you are spending all that time practicing you could lose out on making the Promoter HOF.
Thanks Jen. Just think how many more biographies (endorsed by the IPT?) you could sell when Keith becomes a household name.
I take a great deal of interest in the IPT as (after the US) we have the biggest contingent of players - 18 UK born members. But it didn't need x-ray specs to see the way that Kevin would get a financial return. The videos were obvious - but to tape every match that was phenomenal.
He has hand picked industry associate to benefit from his marketing drive. Diamond were always a great table and rightfully their reputation will grow.
The new lightweight, user friendly Sardo Rack makes it's predecessor pre historic and works fine on a full rack of balls.
But cues, balls, cloth, chalk with the IPT name will put a few industry noses out of joint. Then could come the IPT Franchised Pool Room, that could raise the bar!
For years I have been hearing the cry - What this game needs is a benevolent billionaire. Well he has arrived, make the most of it. Mike Sigel has and fair play to him
DaveK said:
LOL! I am in politics, DaveK, surrounded by it a little more than I like at times, but that goes with working in D.C. and transcribing the sucker-punching words of Democrats vs. Republicans. Each year, it is the same old crap, sames words, different players!
DaveK said:
I actually enjoyed reading Pro9dg's post. It was detailed and illustrated another side of the coin from my perspective, the player's, and provided a little history on an international scale.
In the long run, it is my hope that EVERYONE will enjoy pool's rise to stardom because, IMHO, it is only a matter of time. The IPT has raised the bar, and pool will never the same as before!
JAM
Uhhh, no. He helped, but if he takes any more credit than, oh, 5% or so he's full of himself. And that's a stretch... Golf has always been a more illustrious, more popular sport than pool, going back to Europe and on through to Bobby Jones in the 1920s and 1930s here in the U.S.Colin Colenso said:
Additionally, the target market in golf - white males 20-49 with higher than average incomes - appeals to advertisers. Pool doesn't quite have the same demographic. Nor does it have the same standing as a game of respect. The threads on pool hall fist-fights bear that out...
I don't doubt that KT has advertisers lined up, because PRO Pool isn't the same as fist-fighting bar pool. But the demographics still aren't quite as ideal as they are in golf, either.
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DaveK said:
I think that statement was more from what KT was saying on the audio than JAM's personal perspective. And I also believe KT was not trying to put down all organizers, especially independent ones, but the fat cats he saw flying first class, and being put up in the finest hotels and making $150K, all from the member's money.
I remember the owner of Cuetech Cues that sponsored several WPBA Classic tour stops saying to me that she was embarrassed to hand over the big check at the end for only $6000 (then).
A lot of us on the board have contributed to pool and even donated our time, efforts, family time, practice time, and our own money to make things happen for other players and understand completely the other side.
iacas said:Uhhh, no. He helped, but if he takes any more credit than, oh, 5% or so he's full of himself. And that's a stretch... Golf has always been a more illustrious, more popular sport than pool, going back to Europe and on through to Bobby Jones in the 1920s and 1930s here in the U.S.
You refer to an amateur golfer in your post above , but professionals were not rolling in the dough back then. They lived a life not unlike todays pool professionals.
I believe that McCormack (sp?) was responsible for promoting his players so well that the overall popularity of the sport increased driving up prize money. However there is another fellow, Fred Corcoran, who had a very significant role in promoting the PGA Tour events and some professional players. This is well before McCormack became involved, he would have been a young lad at the time. There is a brief description of Corcorans career at the Golf Hall of Fame (he is a member). It is worth reading, he sounds a bit like KT in some ways
http://www.wgv.com/hof/members/fcorcoran.html
Dave
One more time - The BCA execs making over 100k a year, and paying out 15k to the winner, ere the EXPLOITERS. NOT THE IPT (quoting CaptiveBred)
Realistically, they do more than just tournaments...or did you forget about the leagues that are run by them aswell....
________
Realistically, they do more than just tournaments...or did you forget about the leagues that are run by them aswell....
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20DollarCue said:
This would certainly be a plus to the sport for sure...maybe better run pool halls run by players would do wonders for the industry....and less pool halls being run into the ground by non-players....
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Exactly. In erecting this little straw man argument, you've proven my original point: that someone popularized golf enough that Tiger Woods can earn a million bucks every week he plays.DaveK said:
McCormack can take some of the credit. Not full credit and not even half credit. The popularity of golf would have come sooner or later without him, and without players like Arnold Palmer, etc. even McCormack couldn't have done it.
If KT can help to do the same thing with pool players, great. He has more to overcome - the perception that pool is a game for gang members and vicious, lonely, single guys being high on that list - but I think he can do it, because he has the money and he has the characters.
And as an aside, as I don't wish to get into a golf discussion (feel free to engage me at thesandtrap.com, my golf site, if you'd like), Bobby Jones was effectively a pro back then if you use today's rules of amateur status. He played in four tournaments, primarily, per year, and his "impregnable quadrilateral" (his "Grand Slam") involved winning the US and British Amateur tournaments (two) as well as their professional counterparts (two more). Francis Ouimet 20 years earlier energized the nation, too, and Sarazen, Hogan, Snead, etc. did a mighty fine job earning money as pros back in the 1930s and 1940s and 50s.
But that's all off the topic, again. I remain assertive of my original comment re: the "promoting" of pool. The way to do it, I believe, is like it's been done in golf. And to this point, no "organization" has really done that. They've expected pool to stand on its own two feet. It doesn't. The NFL doesn't even stand on its own as a good product - it's the partying, the atmosphere, the storylines built up around it that make it compelling. To popularize pool, someone will have to look at "Pool" as a product, not a sport, and to this point, I don't anyone or any organization has really done that. KT seems like he "gets it" in this regard.[/QUOTE]