rhythm of the stroke...your thoughts

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Sorry Fran, but the cue will have to stop going backwards at some time in their swing.

randyg
But to be a "pause" it has to stay motionless for at least a short period of time. When you throw a ball straight up, does it stay motionless for any period of time at the top, or does its downward motion start immediately as its upward motion stops?

I'm pretty sure that, whatever the answer, it's purely semantics and nothing to do with whether or not an intentional pause is desirable.

pj
chgo
 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's what the pause feels like for me...

The final stroke, unlike the practice/preliminary strokes, accelerates forward from zero velocity to the end of the follow through. The preliminary strokes are not accelerating, and it feels like there is no pause between the backward and forward motions, but I know there is.

On that final backswing, once my brain decides the shot is ready to execute, I do a feel a slight difference when transferring from the backward to forward motion, like a zero point in time where the brain resets everything for execution mode. At this point the stroke has zero velocity, a pause in motion of maybe a few microseconds. Maybe it's too small to be seen or noticed, but I can feel it. And the Digicue Blue captures it every time, proving that a pause does occur.

It's like that analogy (by Patrick I think) of a ball being tossed in the air -- yes, it stops moving (zero velocity) just before it begins to accelerate back down to earth, regardless of whether or not it looks like it stops moving.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry Fran, but the cue will have to stop going backwards at some time in their swing.

randyg

I think you are misunderstanding me. With a continuous loop stroke there is never a change in direction. In those cases there is no pause, but most players don't shoot like that.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's what the pause feels like for me...

The final stroke, unlike the practice/preliminary strokes, accelerates forward from zero velocity to the end of the follow through. The preliminary strokes are not accelerating, and it feels like there is no pause between the backward and forward motions, but I know there is.

On that final backswing, once my brain decides the shot is ready to execute, I do a feel a slight difference when transferring from the backward to forward motion, like a zero point in time where the brain resets everything for execution mode. At this point the stroke has zero velocity, a pause in motion of maybe a few microseconds. Maybe it's too small to be seen or noticed, but I can feel it. And the Digicue Blue captures it every time, proving that a pause does occur.

It's like that analogy (by Patrick I think) of a ball being tossed in the air -- yes, it stops moving (zero velocity) just before it begins to accelerate back down to earth, regardless of whether or not it looks like it stops moving.


Maybe my response here is a scientifically bad example because gravity is involved but how about this ----

If the ball is traveling in an arc, like in juggling, for example, then there is no change in direction, thus no pause. I imagine that if the ball is traveling up in a perfectly straight line, there would be a slight pause before it begins it's trip down, but what if there's even just the slightest arc in it's path? No pause, I would guess. I don't know about you, but I can't throw a ball up in a perfectly straight line.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Maybe my response here is a scientifically bad example because gravity is involved but how about this ----

If the ball is traveling in an arc, like in juggling, for example, then there is no change in direction, thus no pause. I imagine that if the ball is traveling up in a perfectly straight line, there would be a slight pause before it begins it's trip down, but what if there's even just the slightest arc in it's path? No pause, I would guess. I don't know about you, but I can't throw a ball up in a perfectly straight line.
Yes, the ball traveling in an arc is like the loopy pinoy stroke - obviously no stopping anywhere. As for the ball going straight up and down... my instinct is there's never actually a moment when it isn't moving. I'd be happy to be proved wrong in order to learn the truth.

pj <- tangentially speaking
chgo
 
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
Maybe my response here is a scientifically bad example because gravity is involved but how about this ----

If the ball is traveling in an arc, like in juggling, for example, then there is no change in direction, thus no pause. I imagine that if the ball is traveling up in a perfectly straight line, there would be a slight pause before it begins it's trip down, but what if there's even just the slightest arc in it's path? No pause, I would guess. I don't know about you, but I can't throw a ball up in a perfectly straight line.

Good point, as usual. A continual circle or oval path would never have zero velocity, meaning the ball would as always be moving along its orbit. There would be a point in time, however, where the vertical displacement of the ball reaches a maximum height before it begins its descent. At this point the ball is no longer moving upward or downward as it relates to the ground. A circular style stroke would work in the same manner, only horizontally instead of vertically. At some point in the orbit the tip of the cue will reach a maximum distance away from the cb before it begins to move back toward the cb. But the measurement of time at this point is so trivial that one would more than likely not be able to feel it or see it happening.
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... If the ball is traveling in an arc, like in juggling, for example, then there is no change in direction, thus no pause. ...
Technically, the direction the ball is moving is continuously changing when three balls are juggled in the normal manner. If they are juggled in columns, as here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DElWwoNdJzQ then the direction does change from up to down but stays on the same line.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, the ball traveling in an arc is like the loopy pinoy stroke - obviously no stopping anywhere. As for the ball going straight up and down... my instinct is there's never actually a moment when it isn't moving. I'd be happy to be proved wrong in order to learn the truth.

pj <- tangentially speaking
chgo

Me too....

But then you get to anatomy and physiology. Do the muscles have to stop before changing direction with a traditional pool stroke? I think probably so.

But here's where I think it gets interesting: We have more than one muscle group at work, so when the arm muscle group stops to change direction, the hand muscle group can potentially keep the cue in motion because certain hand muscles aren't necessarily reversing direction, but rather starting for the first time during that stroke.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Somebody asked me via PM to offer my thoughts on the pause/stop debate.

All of my thoughts are already presented in detail here:

what is a "pause" and why should I "pause?"

Enjoy,
Dave
Hope you don't mind if I quote your definition of "pause" here, Dave. I encourage everybody to follow your link and read your whole explanation (and everything else on your site).

Strictly speaking, if the cue stops only for an "instant," there is no "pause." An "instant" does not involve any passage of time. A "pause" does imply a "stop" (zero speed) for a distinct amount of time. For example, when a free-swinging pendulum changes direction at is highest point, it does "stop" for an "instant," but it does not "pause."

pj
chgo
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hope you don't mind if I quote your definition of "pause" here, Dave. I encourage everybody to follow your link and read your whole explanation (and everything else on your site).
I think quotes like this are fine. What I don't like is when somebody quotes something out of context in a way that skews the intended message.

Regards,
Dave
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think quotes like this are fine. What I don't like is when somebody quotes something out of context in a way that skews the intended message.

Regards,
Dave

....or quoting someone without giving credit to the originator of the quote, leaving the reader to wrongly assume who actually said those words.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think a cut and paste would've sufficed.
I hope Dave keeps posting links to his site, whether or not he includes quotes. I think he performs a valuable forum service by posting links to relevant info in as many threads as possible. Threads and the forum are better for it.

I'm afraid if he took the time to cut and paste things he wouldn't be able to provide nearly as many useful references as he does - and threads and the forum would be poorer because of it.

pj
chgo
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I hope Dave keeps posting links to his site, whether or not he includes quotes. I think he performs a valuable forum service by posting links to relevant info in as many threads as possible. Threads and the forum are better for it.

I'm afraid if he took the time to cut and paste things he wouldn't be able to provide nearly as many useful references as he does - and threads and the forum would be poorer because of it.
Also, the resource pages I link to usually include much more context in the form of links, videos, and articles that provide supporting information.

Regards,
Dave
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Me too....

But then you get to anatomy and physiology. Do the muscles have to stop before changing direction with a traditional pool stroke? I think probably so.

But here's where I think it gets interesting: We have more than one muscle group at work, so when the arm muscle group stops to change direction, the hand muscle group can potentially keep the cue in motion because certain hand muscles aren't necessarily reversing direction, but rather starting for the first time during that stroke.

Fran, regarding your juggling analogy earlier, maybe a closer analogy would be the motion of a piston in an engine. The cylinder end moves back and forth like the cue tip, while the other end is attached to a crankshaft and moves in a circular motion, as the elbow would in a stroke where the elbow doesn't experience a start/stop type motion.

Regarding the above bold part. You've hit on something that I can identify with completely. I play with mostly a pendulum stroke and have been considering to add a pause at my backstroke. Nobody else mentioned this, but I find that the pause allows my hand and forearm muscles to relax completely before I begin the forward stroke. I like to play with a "dead" hand meaning I am not introducing any tension into the stroke from the hand. I have found that the pause triggers me to think about relaxing those muscles completely just before the forward stroke begins. It all happens very quickly, I guess in the time it takes to pause.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Oh, and I don't subscribe to the idea that you cannot change to a pause stroke if you "naturally" don't do that. I have trouble believing that any player naturally paused the first time they picked up a cue. I think the trick is that if you understand that the pause actually yields real benefits that you can see, then you will start doing it all the time.
 
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