Ron V aiming system video and diagrams

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ - the bridge isn't the pivot point. It never was--- nor is it the pivot point with CTE/Pro1. Ron said you pivot from the hip numerous times--- not sure where you got the bridge from. I actually think I pivot from the very back of the cue.

In Ron's video he places his bridge hand on the table before moving his back hand sideways to pivot the cue at the bridge. (He even describes this in the introductory video as "backhand english", which means the same thing.) There's no confusion about this; it's perfectly clear in the video. When you fix your bridge in position and move your back hand, the cue pivots at the bridge, as is shown in my drawing.

Please experiment with this stuff. Don't say you don't have to.

If I go to the table and do what's described in Ron's video and it doesn't turn out the way the drawing shows, it could only be because I didn't follow the directions given in Ron's video.

This isn't a theory any more than "centerball to centerball = a straight shot" is a theory, and it doesn't need to be "tested" any more than that does. If you don't get the plain and simple geometry of it I'm sorry I can't help you. But others will get it, so this is for them.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Ron refers to his aim line as 90-90 but he also says it is one tip in from the edge of the ball. Taking a line 10% in from the edge of the balls and calling it 90-90 is probably a mistake in itself. Once the first error is made any proof based on that error is invalid.

Does anyone feel that there are ten tips across a cue ball?

Start with an invalid set-up to begin with and anything that is proven or disproven will be highly unlikely to be relevant to the actual question at hand.

Hu

The drawing shows the centerline of the stick if the stick's outside edge is lined up with the edge of the cue ball - that's how Ron described it in his video. So it accurately depicts what Ron describes as a 90/90 pivot (with a 10-inch bridge length).

If the centerline of the stick starts a little closer to the center of the cue ball, then the CB-OB distance where the CB misses the OB is a little farther away, but not a lot. If the centerline of the stick starts a little closer to the edge of the cue ball, then the OB distance where the CB misses the OB is a little closer. Either way, the CB completely misses the OB well within the range of shots you'd expect the system to be able to pocket.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

In Ron's video he places his bridge hand on the table before moving his back hand sideways to pivot the cue at the bridge. (He even describes this in the introductory video as "backhand english", which means the same thing.) There's no confusion about this; it's perfectly clear in the video. When you fix your bridge in position and move your back hand, the cue pivots at the bridge, as is shown in my drawing.



If I go to the table and do what's described in Ron's video and it doesn't turn out the way the drawing shows, it could only be because I didn't follow the directions given in Ron's video.

This isn't a theory any more than "centerball to centerball = a straight shot" is a theory, and it doesn't need to be "tested" any more than that does. If you don't get the plain and simple geometry of it I'm sorry I can't help you. But others will get it, so this is for them.

pj
chgo

PJ-

Please go to a table. You're wrong. The pivot results are COMPLETELY different. I know, I tried unlike you.

I pinched the cue at the bridge position and rotated it -- and the results were exactly what your diagram proved.

When I pivoted my body from my right hip, the tip position is COMPLETELY different.

If you took 2 mins to try this, you'd find out you're wrong. If you think you're right then all I can say is it's a good thing your ego doesn't get in the way of good information -- we'd all be misinformed.

 

[cleary]

patrick, if you think this system is crap, than so be it... just leave it alone. I personally think a lot of people will be helped with this info. Trying to debunk something that you wont even try makes you look like a fool. So until you get on a table and hit some balls, your opinions and drawings mean nothing to the people who are using this system because its working.

 

[JoeyA]

Aiming Systems and Patrick's pool game.

I don't have to shoot this shot on a table to know that, if I do it the way it's described, it can't work beyond a couple of diamonds of CB-OB distance. That's why drawings can be valuable - they're able to reveal when the aiming technique you describe can't work in the real world exactly as described.

Maybe the way 90/90 pivoting has been described is just an approximation, or maybe the description is inaccurate in some way. But the drawing reflects the way it's been described here.

I'm not criticizing it; just trying to get a clear understanding of it.

pj
chgo

Patrick,
Would you use an aiming system if it was able to improve your overall game by 1%, 3 % or 5%? Ok, how about 10%?

Your game may be only 20% away from pro level but I don't want you dreaming of that kind of play.

Just curious.

JoeyA

 

[12squared]

Thank you for the post. It helps answer some of my concern about hittin gthe cue ball anywhere that's needed to get position while still using a pivot type system.

Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

Farther than 2 diamonds and 90/90 does not work. The CB misses the OB when it's that far away. Here's my drawing again showing how that happens:

View attachment 77041

This means that for longer shots you're not really doing an exact 90/90 pivot - you're doing something else (and the 90/90 pivot concept somehow helps you do it).

pj
chgo

Patrick,

I'm not sure he's pivoting from the bridge hand. It maybe more of a center cue pivot with the back hand shifting one way and the bridge shifting a little toward the CB. This is how others have explained the pivot in similar systems.

I agree that these are approximation systems. I prefer the term 'ball park systems' that require some intuitive adjustment.

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So What's Really Happening?

Yea, you got us! Damn you're good! We were just making this whole thing up to try to fool you, but damn... your too good for us!

Well, what's really happening is you're "fooling" yourself (hang on, I don't mean that as an insult!). The system is obviously working for you, but equally obviously it's not working the way you think it is. That may not matter to you as long as you're making shots, so feel free to ignore my explanation that follows - I won't be offended and your game probably won't suffer.

For others who may be interested, here's what I think makes this system (and others like it) work: they're systems for players who have "aiming instincts" (what we usually call "feel") that function very well, but they have to "trick" themselves into letting it happen fully. The system helps them "get out of the way" mentally so their aiming instinct can function effectively.

There may be a problem (too much thinking, too much doubt, whatever) or the system may simply be an improvement, but I think that by convincing the player that instinct is taken out of the picture (by seeming to work "mechanically" for every shot just by following the same simple instructions), the system allows the player to release his innate aiming ability to "freewheel" and make the shots it's capable of.

In a way it's like "getting into the zone" at will - and in this sense it's an ability I envy. That's an aspect of these systems I find very intriguing - I think they may teach us something about how to find "the zone" more easily and more frequently.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm not sure he's pivoting from the bridge hand.

Have you watched the video? It's pretty obvious.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Patrick,
Would you use an aiming system if it was able to improve your overall game by 1%, 3 % or 5%? Ok, how about 10%?

Sure, but I'd have to be pretty sure it wouldn't limit my advancement in some way. I don't want to take off down a tangent because it seems to have a little higher speed limit, only to find out it's a dead end that I have to backtrack out of in order to go farther.

Your game may be only 20% away from pro level

LOL. I think it's at least 21%.

I like to analyze these aiming systems because I think players like me are interested generally, but also because I think they may have things to teach us outside the use of the systems themselves. Like maybe how players like me, who can't devote the time necessary to become great "feel" players, can find our way into the zone more often. Or maybe how to use "reference angles" to keep our aiming eye sharp without the need to practice hours a day.

The reason I question these systems so closely is not so I can reject them; it's so I can really understand them so I can get from them what's useful to me.

pj
chgo.

 

[Flex]

OK folks, here goes.

Against my better judgment, I'm posting something that might just help someone improve their potting of balls. I hope they don't use it to beat me!

I watched those videos of Ron V on Youtube as posted above.

What I found after a few hours experimenting, and another three hours playing 9 ball was this.

Starting with the 90/90 position, play around with using the 90/90 for shots that are in the under 15 degree range, and then pivot to center ball and roll the cue ball with a touch of follow and see what you get. For shots in the 30 degree range, line up as for a 90/90 shot, and pivot your cue stick through the point on the cue ball across the object ball and divide it into six equal sections. Then aim the cue stick through the 90 point on the cue ball towards the 2nd of the six points on the top of the object ball, make a bridge about 10 to 12 inches or so, pivot the cue using the your bridge point to the center of the cue ball, and stroke it smoothly, and roll it with a touch of follow and see where the object ball goes. You may find that you need to adjust the length of your bridge, but if it's in the 10 to 12 inch range, you probably won't need much adjustment. For shots in the 45 degree range, do as in the second example above, but point the tip of your cue through the 90 on the cue ball and aim at the top of the center, or point 3 of the 6, then pivot your cue about your bridge to center ball and stroke the cue ball as in the other examples. Do the same for the 60 and 75 degree shots.

How do you tell what the angle is, approximately, without a protractor? Here's what I do, and it works alright for me. From the angle of the cue when at 90/90 to each of the intermediary points on the way to 75 degrees, you will find if you place your cue along those lines that the distance between the points is approximately 12 or 15 inches or so, whatever the distance for your cue is from 0 at 90/90 up to the 75 being 5, divide the angles angles by the distance between the butts at the bumper. Experiment with this a bit, and you'll soon be able to estimate what the angle is, and then make your primary aim line and then the pivot line to center.

Believe me, this thing works.

For me at least; hope it does for you.

As with anything else, if you want to shoot with english, you'll need to make adjustments for squirt and swerve and throw and so on. In the meantime, start to enjoy pool using center ball like you've never done before.

Wow...

Flex

P.S. Sorry if my explanation doesn't make any sense to you. Perhaps it needs to be shown on the table to "get it."

 

[SpiderWebComm]

PJ-- he's not pivoting from his bridge, for the last time.

I've used the system for a long time. If he TRULY pivoted from his bridge, he'd never make/hit a ball ever.

Now, if what you're saying is he THINKS he's pivoting from his hip when he's really pivoting from his bridge.... you're implying Ron doesn't know what he's doing/saying. You're also saying I'm hallucinating - and that's not the case. I know precisely where I hit the CB and I know EXACTLY where I pivot....and I can't come close to wearing Ron's jock strap in pool.

Let me say this.... he might be one of the very most knowledgeable players I've ever met in my lifetime and I'm not puffing the slightest bit (and I know a LOT of top players).

I think you have a long, long, long way to go before you convince people you know more than Ron Vitello. I can't think of one pool subject where you could hang with him in a conversation. He plays a liiiiittle sporty as well.

He never said, EVER, that he pivots from his bridge. Unlike you, I've had multiple in-person lessons with Ron and the entire focus was pivoting from the hip. THERE IS NOOOOOOO PIVOT SYSTEM THAT PIVOTS FROM THE BRIDGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only person you're cheating with your indignant posts is yourself. If you didn't believe you knew everything and was a little more humble, you'd be 10x the player.

You won't admit to it, but the next time you're at a table, you'll compare a bridge pivot to a body pivot and see it's apples and oranges--- and you'll secretly feel like an ass.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

OK folks, here goes.

Against my better judgment, I'm posting something that might just help someone improve their potting of balls. I hope they don't use it to beat me!

I watched those videos of Ron V on Youtube as posted above.

What I found after a few hours experimenting, and another three hours playing 9 ball was this.

Starting with the 90/90 position, play around with using the 90/90 for shots that are in the under 15 degree range, and then pivot to center ball and roll the cue ball with a touch of follow and see what you get. For shots in the 30 degree range, line up as for a 90/90 shot, and pivot your cue stick through the point on the cue ball across the object ball and divide it into six equal sections. Then aim the cue stick through the 90 point on the cue ball towards the 2nd of the six points on the top of the object ball, make a bridge about 10 to 12 inches or so, pivot the cue using the your bridge point to the center of the cue ball, and stroke it smoothly, and roll it with a touch of follow and see where the object ball goes. You may find that you need to adjust the length of your bridge, but if it's in the 10 to 12 inch range, you probably won't need much adjustment. For shots in the 45 degree range, do as in the second example above, but point the tip of your cue through the 90 on the cue ball and aim at the top of the center, or point 3 of the 6, then pivot your cue about your bridge to center ball and stroke the cue ball as in the other examples. Do the same for the 60 and 75 degree shots.

How do you tell what the angle is, approximately, without a protractor? Here's what I do, and it works alright for me. From the angle of the cue when at 90/90 to each of the intermediary points on the way to 75 degrees, you will find if you place your cue along those lines that the distance between the points is approximately 12 or 15 inches or so, whatever the distance for your cue is from 0 at 90/90 up to the 75 being 5, divide the angles angles by the distance between the butts at the bumper. Experiment with this a bit, and you'll soon be able to estimate what the angle is, and then make your primary aim line and then the pivot line to center.

Believe me, this thing works.

For me at least; hope it does for you.

As with anything else, if you want to shoot with english, you'll need to make adjustments for squirt and swerve and throw and so on. In the meantime, start to enjoy pool using center ball like you've never done before.

Wow...

Flex

P.S. Sorry if my explanation doesn't make any sense to you. Perhaps it needs to be shown on the table to "get it."

You'll see that you only need 90/90, 90 - 1/2, 90 - 3/4 (between the light and the edge of the ball), and 90/Reverse-90.

You nearly stumbled upon the complete system on your own... good job. According to PJ, you shouldn't have hit 1/2 the balls you shot at, let alone make them. PJ's a smart guy, if he spent 5 mins doing what you did... he'd greatly improve his game. BUT, he doesn't need to-- he knows everything.

 

[ShootingArts]

Got to print it out

Flex,

I have to print this out and bring it to a pool table too. Too tired to make heads or tails of it right now but that is a long ways from saying it doesn't make sense. The proof is in the pudding and when balls are falling it is awfully hard to claim something doesn't work!

Hu

OK folks, here goes.

Against my better judgment, I'm posting something that might just help someone improve their potting of balls. I hope they don't use it to beat me!

I watched those videos of Ron V on Youtube as posted above.

What I found after a few hours experimenting, and another three hours playing 9 ball was this.

Starting with the 90/90 position, play around with using the 90/90 for shots that are in the under 15 degree range, and then pivot to center ball and roll the cue ball with a touch of follow and see what you get. For shots in the 30 degree range, line up as for a 90/90 shot, and pivot your cue stick through the point on the cue ball across the object ball and divide it into six equal sections. Then aim the cue stick through the 90 point on the cue ball towards the 2nd of the six points on the top of the object ball, make a bridge about 10 to 12 inches or so, pivot the cue using the your bridge point to the center of the cue ball, and stroke it smoothly, and roll it with a touch of follow and see where the object ball goes. You may find that you need to adjust the length of your bridge, but if it's in the 10 to 12 inch range, you probably won't need much adjustment. For shots in the 45 degree range, do as in the second example above, but point the tip of your cue through the 90 on the cue ball and aim at the top of the center, or point 3 of the 6, then pivot your cue about your bridge to center ball and stroke the cue ball as in the other examples. Do the same for the 60 and 75 degree shots.

How do you tell what the angle is, approximately, without a protractor? Here's what I do, and it works alright for me. From the angle of the cue when at 90/90 to each of the intermediary points on the way to 75 degrees, you will find if you place your cue along those lines that the distance between the points is approximately 12 or 15 inches or so, whatever the distance for your cue is from 0 at 90/90 up to the 75 being 5, divide the angles angles by the distance between the butts at the bumper. Experiment with this a bit, and you'll soon be able to estimate what the angle is, and then make your primary aim line and then the pivot line to center.

Believe me, this thing works.

For me at least; hope it does for you.

As with anything else, if you want to shoot with english, you'll need to make adjustments for squirt and swerve and throw and so on. In the meantime, start to enjoy pool using center ball like you've never done before.

Wow...

Flex

P.S. Sorry if my explanation doesn't make any sense to you. Perhaps it needs to be shown on the table to "get it."

 

[eezbank]

REP to you dave. he did the same thing to hal houle. it's kinda funny though. you read his posts and you know he doesn't have a clear understanding about these pivot systems and he keeps putting his foot in his mouth.take the time go to the table and try it someone suggested....he said he doesn't have to!!! lol that's classic right there!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

REP to you dave. he did the same thing to hal houle. it's kinda funny though. you read his posts and you know he doesn't have a clear understanding about these pivot systems and he keeps putting his foot in his mouth.take the time go to the table and try it someone suggested....he said he doesn't have to!!! lol that's classic right there!

That's my point. You DO have to. I don't know why he projects like he's omnipotent with aiming - he's far from it. His diagram ISNT what Ron, or what anyone else is doing.

Like I said earlier.... i offered to pay 1/2 his airline ticket to spend a day with me and he declined. He's scared to death of the outcome. Ya see, while he projects to know shit with aiming, guys like Ron really do. If you wanna make diagrams to disprove a technique... I'm all for it... but take the time to do it right and investigate the procedure. DON'T say you don't have to.... if anyone does, it's PJ since he's not knowledgeable with pivot techniques.

One thing I give Colin Colenso a LOT of credit for, is that guy will grind at the table for DAYS before making a post and he plays 10000x better than PJ. Not even Colin would say "I don't need to." That's why I respect his posts whether they favor my opinion or not--- the guy's a player and he's a student of the game. PJ is a student of himself.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ-- he's not pivoting from his bridge, for the last time.

You can say it until your lips go numb.

Watch Ron's video. His bridge doesn't move. His back hand does. That's what "pivoting at the bridge" means. That's what my drawing shows.

This isn't rocket science.

The only person you're cheating with your indignant posts is yourself.

You're making a soap opera out of nothing.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

patrick, if you think this system is crap, than so be it...

Jesus, stop being such drama queens. I never said anything like that.

If it's so painful to have a little discussion about this stuff, maybe you shouldn't start threads about it in a discussion forum.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

His bridge doesn't have to move - neither does yours. There's lateral movement. I would say to try it, but you don't have to -- you know it already.

Like I said, leave your street once in a while and come to a major event and argue your case with me in front of people one time. Our debate would last about 5 mins before you started talking about the weather, or lipstick on pigs, or something.

He wasn't being a drama queen, he was probably getting testy over you projecting in your posts.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Have you watched the video? It's pretty obvious.

pj
chgo

In those couple of 90/90 shots the bridge hand doesn't appear to move much if at all. But it's my understanding that most these systems don't pivot from the bridge.

Of course, if the pivot point varies then this allows a greater range of cuts. The question is, how does it vary?

Colin