router question

[Ridge Runner]

Bit Speed

Mac,
Not sure where you get that understanding, if you are using a 1/2 bit, then go to a 1/4 bit in size, you are contacting the suface of the wood at a 2-1 ratio with the blades of the router bit. A 1/4 cuts smoother due to the blades hitting the surface more than the 1/2 router bit.
Sort of like a table saw blade. Same size blade, but more teeth cut smoother.
Just my opinion of coarse.

Assuming you are running a constant RPM and both bits have the same # of cutting blades, the blades on both bits would hit the same #of times. Due to a larger circumference, the 1/2" bit has the fastest surface cutting speed in my humble opinion.
John

 

[QMAKER]

Router cutter speed

The RPM of the router is fixed as in 15,000 RPM and does not change regardless
of the cutter diameter.
When figuring the speed of circular cutters you are referring to rim speed (RS) or how fast one tooth passes the wood.
Whatever the rim speed is multiply by the number of teeth on the cutter to get cutting speed (CS). Rim speed is determined by multiplying the cutter circumference by the RPM. Bob

 

[Cue Guru]

Cue Guru,

On a metal lathe, I use a 2 fluke 3/8" router bit within a laminate router mounted on my cross slide t-slot perpendicular to the butt on a 5 degree angle so the angle of attack only allows one fluke to cut per revolution. I do all of my tapering or straight cutting from left to right with the joint section at the tail stock. The router is going 30,000 rpm and silver rings cut perfectly. Never had a problem with them.

Cool. I had to read this post several times to get everything straight in my head, but I've got it now. I had a similar idea for a dedicated shaft 'machine' using a metal lathe and a 'box' above it that my beast of a router could ride in to get my taper the way I want it... Jack the ferrule end of the box to accomodate larger ferrule diameters as needed... I'll probably do this and stick with the boring head in the tail stock for butts...

also use this set up for cutting my wrap grooves. I do 11" left to right, then I reset my router on the tool post so it is 5 degrees the other way. When I cut that last inch of my wrap groove left to right, it does a very good job without a noticeable change to the RMS finish of the groove face.

This makes sense. The top of the wrap groove tends to be very close to the center of the butt too (and therefore likely to 'dig')... If the cutter is cutting with the rotation of the cue one way, it is cutting against the rotation the other way. BIG change in surface speed there: with you subtract the surface speed of the cue from the bit; against you add them together. Like getting hit by a car on a bike- with traffic you are crippled, against traffic you are a stain.:smile:

my feed and speed set up the finished product feels like it was sanded with no lines or chatter whatsoever. When I had vertical router mount I had finish problems near the center area of the butt due to slight deflection pressure. The perpendicular set up works 1000 times better for me.

I have the deflection/digging problem in spades with a single point... I was just working on my Titlist and it dug in a few times; fortunately, not very bad as I can almost predict it now... it's amazing how fast you learn that!

go right from the lathe to the sealing process without sanding. For my last pass or when cutting wrap grooves, I always use a bit that is very sharp that is dedicated for final passes.

No sanding after cutting means little to no chance of cross-contamination! Very cool for Ebony and other 'oily' woods that tens to get all over each other... It looks like I need to get this set up right away! Also cool to preserve the integrity of the taper- you spend so much time perfecting a taper and then sand it to hell... Now it is just like machining brass or aluminum- dial in one thou, get one thou. I love having that kind of control...

Rick, thank you very much for sharing your experience with this. You saved me a lot of scrap wood by eliminating a lot of the learning curve for me.:wink:

By the way, does this work well with the stainless joint collars as well? I like to glue them early.

 

[hillscues]

RPM on the spindle shood be around 400-700 you have to play with it, if you get chatter in the middle of the cue usually go slower. feed rate on mine is 8.5 minutes a pass on a cue . I run a 2 flute 3/8 dia must be sharp, and not a cheep o cutter thease will tear -break the top of the points ,sharp will not. hope this helps. darrin

 

[macguy]

RPM on the spindle shood be around 400-700 you have to play with it, if you get chatter in the middle of the cue usually go slower. feed rate on mine is 8.5 minutes a pass on a cue . I run a 2 flute 3/8 dia must be sharp, and not a cheep o cutter thease will tear -break the top of the points ,sharp will not. hope this helps. darrin

You really should try a slot cutter three or four wings. I am assuming you are running the router vertically. I have been messing around with this stuff for like 30 years and I never found using a router bit very good. Chatter is not always the speed but often a dull cutter or even too much pressure between centers. The shaft has to be held very gently between centers. My shaft machine takes about 6 1/2 minutes to make a pass over 30 inches.

 

[hillscues]

all my routers are horizontal , I have had good luck this way. when it comes to chatter I know all about it ,and 50 ways two get rid of it, I've been machining for 23 years, I was just giving him a pace lap around the track. I may try a 3 wing cutter down the road , I build more jigs than cues, I think.

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[Dave38]

Small cutter diameter = 'straighter cutter angle' = more chop than slice.
Larger diameter of cutter = more angle on cutter, therefore = more slice, less chop.
Compare a 1/2" dia. 2 cutter bit and a 3 cutter 2" dia. wing cutter, the angle of the cutters are different. When cutting something thin like a shaft, that makes a BIG difference. The smaller 2 cutter bit has a straighter cutter angle that will push the shaft more and then the shaft will come back to be pushed again. A 3 wing cutter with a larger dia. usually has more angle, and therefore slices the wood and doesn't push as much therefore less chatter marks, and faster cutting speed. The other factor that hasn't been mentioned so far is the balance of the cutter assembly. If the mandrel is off balanced, or the blade, as most aren't , due to to much play with spacers, mandrel shaft dia. compared to hole dia. in cutter etc. At 20,000-30,000 rpm, then the more chatter will happen. A well balanced mandrel/ cutter assembly with a correct angle to slice at the right rpm at the right feed rate, should result in a smooth cut.
I just got done re-doing my lathe setup for shafts this week due to a change in cutters, and mandrell, and it not being balanced properly. Ruined 4 shafts and wasted a lot of time trying to re-dial it in, doing small passes. Not fun.
I have also found that my lathe will follow the taper bars more accuratly going right to left, butt at the headstock, joint at tail, small to big rather than big to small. It's easier to get smooth, when it's being pushed gently against springs expanding, then for springs to pull, contracting, a metal sled against a taper bar gently/smoothly against ways that are getting sprayed with sawdust, etc. Just my experiences, everyone has a different view.
I also use a 1/16" wing cutter, and so far has the smoothest cut yet for me.
dave

 

[dave sutton]

i ve tried 1/4 and found i got some deflect or chatter. 1/2 deff cuts smother for me atleast

 

[Cue Guru]

all my routers are horizontal , I have had good luck this way. when it comes to chatter I know all about it ,and 50 ways two get rid of it, I've been machining for 23 years, I was just giving him a pace lap around the track. I may try a 3 wing cutter down the road , I build more jigs than cues, I think

Thanks for the tips and photos Darrin.

As to the cutter diameter debate, a lot of what has been said is valid.

I am collecting all the information and experience from here and applying it to my own contraptions.

However, one question I had that has not been answered as of yet, is the inch of stainless steel I use as a joint sleeve. How does that cut with a carbide router bit? This is one reason I was thinking an end mil might be better in that case, and will certainly cut wood... Anyone try this?

One other person I chatted with suggested single pointing the steel, and live-tool the rest. Clearly, I'd like to use one set-up to do the final passes to have everything in perfect alignment.

So, my two questions are:

1) How does the stainless joint sleeve cut with a router?

2) Has anyone tried, or is willing to try, using an end mil to rout the wood and metal? (I can donate a 1/4 inch end mil if someone wanted to try it on a scrap)

 

[Murray Tucker]

I need to take a video of my machine cutting a shaft dowel to first turn size in 1.5 minutes.

Silver rings are no problem at all but I still do my stainless joints with a single point.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? It is clear I have to go this route because it takes me about 4 hours to cut 0.020" now... (not that I'm in any rush)... And you really haven't lived until you single point a shaft.:smile:

 

[scdiveteam]

Cue Guru,

Darrin milled all of my parts for my router set mount and it is very heavy duty. Darrin builds stuff very heavy duty for safety reasons concerning routers. Because it is so solid and heavy duty, I think the vibration factor has been eliminated on my set up. He also built my custom 31 inch taper bar and I can not be more happy with it.

Darrin was at my shop last week working on CNC stuff and I did a final taper on a point cue while he was there. He was astounded by his own work when he saw that I did not have to sand. Yes, the cross contamination from veneers is not a problem any more. I just touch off on the veneers with paper by hand going lengthwise with the cue to knock down the veneer surface. I takes about 30 seconds but I do not sand while rotating.

Rick Geschrey

 

[Cue Guru]

Cue Guru,

Darrin milled all of my parts for my router set mount and it is very heavy duty. Darrin builds stuff very heavy duty for safety reasons concerning routers. Because it is so solid and heavy duty, I think the vibration factor has been eliminated on my set up. He also built my custom 31 inch taper bar and I can not be more happy with it.

I can make the parts myself easily enough, I just wanted to know what to make before I start milling aluminum plate for a useless fixture...

Darrin was at my shop last week working on CNC stuff and I did a final taper on a point cue while he was there. He was astounded by his own work when he saw that I did not have to sand. Yes, the cross contamination from veneers is not a problem any more.

Rick geschrey

That is freekin' awesome. I have been fortunate (so far) with contamination issues, and I use a couple tricks to keep things clean, but that last sentence is worth probably 100 hours a year to a busy cue maker...

That clinches it. This Titlist and John Davis that are in process now will be my last single-point cues! I will begin designing my mount.

I assume you guys are all using these laminate trimmers due to size considerations? I ask because I have a couple routers now- one on a router table somewhat permanently, and another with more power than some lawn mowers... I can certainly get a laminate trimmer; however if the 'big' router fits, there is no reason to NOT use that right?

And, I know the run-out of the laminate trimmers has been discussed ad-nauseum; but if cutting with the end of the cutter, I think (know) that lash (axial motion) must be at or near zero in that case. I will indicate the routers I have with a tenths indicator and see what shakes out.

Slightly off-topic, but has anyone trued making a twin-bearing spindle that is belt-driven by a router as the motor? A solid mount is good; however belt-drive (to isolate the motor vibration from the cutter) may be better... BUT, since you go from router to finish now, how much better can it get?

So Rick, what laminate trimmer/router are you using? Clearly it is working well for you, and replicating your set up should yield similar results I imagine (and save me a lot of R&D too).

Once again thanks to everyone for their contributions!

 

[scdiveteam]

Router

Cue Guru,

I use the same Rigid brand that Darrin posted in his pics. They are about $ 125.00 at home depot and I have used the piss out of mine and I see no wear in the bearings as my tool is very solid when I try to wiggle the bit side to side. I have 3 of these routers and use them on 3 different machines in the same way. Darrin made my mount out of 3/8" alum plate and milled two support stanchions to a contour that matched the diameter of the router. By using 2 supports he eliminated any chance for lateral movement or vibration. A great design!

Food for thought. When you design yours I believe you will be better off if you make your bracket to bolt directly to the t-slot notch for the tool post with a locking bolt on a strongback plate. I think this is more solid than mounting to your tool post with 4 allen screws to a flat tab. My mount on my Atlas is that way and it does not do as good a job and my big lathe. I only use it for roughing, not finishing so it's ok. Mounting directly dead down to the cross slide is a better foundation. A dovetail mount like was posted the other day might be ok, but that may prove to be problematic when you get close to the tailstock area. You have to accommodate your set up to the specs. of your specific lathe.

These routers are also pretty quiet and I do not have to use ear protection. I used a audio spectrum analyzer to check the sound pressure level of the router and it reads under 90 db at about 3 feet from the source. If you don't expose yourself to this level for more that four hours, you do not risk any problems to your hearing according to OSHA statistics.

I also use a magnetic mounted air jet nozzle with a 1/8" control valve that I mount on my saddle during final cuts. By directing the jet orifice at the router curf, I deflect all ebony dust ect. from getting onto the maple or white components in rings, joints, or butt caps. This was a huge improvement to my process control and my white stuff is now pristine when it comes off the lathe after final cut. My ivorine joints and butt caps were slightly dirty from cross contamination in the past and it was almost impossible to sand the dirt out once it was on there. With my air jet set up the problem is gone - Poof!!!! As soon as the lathe stops, I put masking tape on the white parts and it stays there until I apply the epoxy sealer to the cue.

Because it takes over 6 minutes to make my cuts, I installed a adjustable automatic shutoff switch to turn off the lathe and the router when the router bit clears the end of the cue. This make it impossibe for me to crash and lets me walk away from this work to do other things.

I agree with your observation about any bearing run out not being a factor in this application. When the 2 fluke router bit is spinning at 30,000 rpm, the centrifugal force has a huge stabilizing effect. If you are not hogging the shit out of a cut the lateral deflection in the center portion of the cue held between centers is close to zero when cutting .003 per side. I have observed that I do get a chatter when I am taking larger cuts with a duller bit. For that reason, I change to a bit I use for the final 2 cuts only. The sharp carbide bit makes it as smooth as glass with the slight cuts.

I would never use a router in the vertical orientation position again because my experience with this process has proved it to be inferior when using a thin profiled router bit. The round wheel type cutters with multiple teeth may be a very good way to go, but I never tried that set up. I saw it in Joe Barringer's video and it looked ok.

Rick

 

[qbilder]

I need to take a video of my machine cutting a shaft dowel to first turn size in 1.5 minutes.

Silver rings are no problem at all but I still do my stainless joints with a single point.

Me, too. My general cuts are MUCH faster and still very smooth. My final cut is ultra smooth & takes about 1.5 minutes. I'd quit if I had to wait 5-10 minutes for a single cut.

 

[macguy]

Me, too. My general cuts are MUCH faster and still very smooth. My final cut is ultra smooth & takes about 1.5 minutes. I'd quit if I had to wait 5-10 minutes for a single cut.

My finish cuts take around 6 1/2 minutes. I don't find it a problem, I have my machine in another somewhat sound proofed room. It runs and shuts down it's self when the pass is done. mean time I can be off doing other things for a better use of time.

 

[Cue Guru]

This is great.

I've learned more from this thread than I did in my 9 years of high school!

If you have a model number, or better picture of the router, I would appreciate it very much. Maybe Santa will bring me one!

And Darrin, if you have cad drawings of the mount you would be willing to share, I would appreciate it; however I realize you may not want to do that, so only do so if you feel OK about it. No problem at all if you don't.

I can design, draw and manufacturer the parts, but I see no need to 'reinvent the wheel' so to speak.:wink: This design works, and works fantastically.

 

[rhncue]

Cue Guru,

I use the same Rigid brand that Darrin posted in his pics. They are about $ 125.00 at home depot and I have used the piss out of mine and I see no wear in the bearings as my tool is very solid when I try to wiggle the bit side to side. I have 3 of these routers and use them on 3 different machines in the same way. Darrin made my mount out of 3/8" alum plate and milled two support stanchions to a contour that matched the diameter of the router. By using 2 supports he eliminated any chance for lateral movement or vibration. A great design!

Food for thought. When you design yours I believe you will be better off if you make your bracket to bolt directly to the t-slot notch for the tool post with a locking bolt on a strongback plate. I think this is more solid than mounting to your tool post with 4 allen screws to a flat tab. My mount on my Atlas is that way and it does not do as good a job and my big lathe. I only use it for roughing, not finishing so it's ok. Mounting directly dead down to the cross slide is a better foundation. A dovetail mount like was posted the other day might be ok, but that may prove to be problematic when you get close to the tailstock area. You have to accommodate your set up to the specs. of your specific lathe.

These routers are also pretty quiet and I do not have to use ear protection. I used a audio spectrum analyzer to check the sound pressure level of the router and it reads under 90 db at about 3 feet from the source. If you don't expose yourself to this level for more that four hours, you do not risk any problems to your hearing according to OSHA statistics.

I also use a magnetic mounted air jet nozzle with a 1/8" control valve that I mount on my saddle during final cuts. By directing the jet orifice at the router curf, I deflect all ebony dust ect. from getting onto the maple or white components in rings, joints, or butt caps. This was a huge improvement to my process control and my white stuff is now pristine when it comes off the lathe after final cut. My ivorine joints and butt caps were slightly dirty from cross contamination in the past and it was almost impossible to sand the dirt out once it was on there. With my air jet set up the problem is gone - Poof!!!! As soon as the lathe stops, I put masking tape on the white parts and it stays there until I apply the epoxy sealer to the cue.

Because it takes over 6 minutes to make my cuts, I installed a adjustable automatic shutoff switch to turn off the lathe and the router when the router bit clears the end of the cue. This make it impossibe for me to crash and lets me walk away from this work to do other things.

I agree with your observation about any bearing run out not being a factor in this application. When the 2 fluke router bit is spinning at 30,000 rpm, the centrifugal force has a huge stabilizing effect. If you are not hogging the shit out of a cut the lateral deflection in the center portion of the cue held between centers is close to zero when cutting .003 per side. I have observed that I do get a chatter when I am taking larger cuts with a duller bit. For that reason, I change to a bit I use for the final 2 cuts only. The sharp carbide bit makes it as smooth as glass with the slight cuts.

I would never use a router in the vertical orientation position again because my experience with this process has proved it to be inferior when using a thin profiled router bit. The round wheel type cutters with multiple teeth may be a very good way to go, but I never tried that set up. I saw it in Joe Barringer's video and it looked ok.

Rick

This stuff all sounds TOO good. I'm going to change my butt lathe set-up and start doing some experiments now. I have a very old, very large heavy lathe permenatly set up for nothing but turning the tapers on my butts between centers. I use a slot cutter on a vertical router at present. It works very well but I do sand after the last cut, just prior to the finish and cross contamination has been a problem for me for years. If something as simple as flipping the router and a different bit would eliminate this problem then I'm going to be eternally grateful. Where was this information 20 years ago as now I'm about to retire.

Dick

 

[macguy]

This stuff all sounds TOO good. I'm going to change my butt lathe set-up and start doing some experiments now. I have a very old, very large heavy lathe permenatly set up for nothing but turning the tapers on my butts between centers. I use a slot cutter on a vertical router at present. It works very well but I do sand after the last cut, just prior to the finish and cross contamination has been a problem for me for years. If something as simple as flipping the router and a different bit would eliminate this problem then I'm going to be eternally grateful. Where was this information 20 years ago as now I'm about to retire.

Dick

I was in Burt Schragers (sp?) shop years ago and that was the set up he used, routers sitting on their sides.. I have mine vertically probably about the same set up you have. Schrager by the way used a bit like a key seat cutter (woodruff cutter) with like 20 teeth. He didn't use any kind of router bits.

 

[scdiveteam]

Router Bit

Dick,

I am getting good results with a 3/8" shank 2 fluke carbide bit on a 5 to 7 degree angle to the work. Less than 10.00 per. It also does perfect cuts for precision facing and wrap groove cutting. The 1/4" bit does not seem to work as well for me. It may have to do with the mass. The 3/8" is much heavier.

Don't forget the air jet and valve for final cuts. That's was the icing on the cake for me!

Good luck, I hope all works well for you.

Rick

 

[scdiveteam]

Router

Cue Guru,

I think it is the only laminate router made by Rigid. (1/4" Shank) It is in stock at Home depots. I have extras in sock in case they stop making them in the future. I don't want to mess with my bracket. Darrin made it bulletproof.

Rick