rule question

[Icon of Sin]

I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I just don't get what you're saying.

In 8 ball isn't your last ball the 8 ball? If so, a scratch on that is a loss, your opponent gets 10 for the win, you get 7, right? I guess this would be an exception to the rule quoted, a weakness in the writing of the rule. But then again, the 8 ball isn't a member of any group.

If you mean the last ball in your group, I don't see how you win that way.

OK, sorry, let me try to be clearer. I havent seen 8ball played in league on a ball per point count. I have only seen it as rack wins. In that case, I can see how scratching and making a ball in your group could be a benefit as the ball stays down and that's one less ball to make.

In APA and BCA 9ball you have a specific number of points to get to. Each ball is one point, and the 9ball is 2 points. I ahve always seen that if you scratch on any 1 point ball, it stays down and is marked dead on the scoresheet, meaning no one gets the point.

So what I was referring to is that, in 8ball, the ball staying down could end up in your favor I guess but it's also one less thing in the way for your opponent... but I havent seen 8ball played by ball count... not saying it doesnt exist, ive been out of league for about 7 years now and for the decade that I shot it, it wasnt a thing. I would hope they would count that ball as dead though instead of a point, like done in 9ball. Players shouldnt be rewarded for a foul.

 

[jviss]

Some leagues score by the BALL, not the game. If you lose the game but make 6 balls, you’d still get 6 points. I don’t think BCA scores like that in ANY leagues, but I could be wrong. The poster you quoted is asking if he sinks his 50th point, but scratches, would he still win? The answer should always be “no”.

Please pardon my ignorance, but I don't appreciate the significance of 50 points. Would a match be a race to 50 points? I thought 8 ball leagues played some fixed number of games against another team, like 16 games for the week, in a round-robin format.

 

[hang-the-9]

So a player can intentionally commit the foul and the ball stays down and he is awarded a point on a foul?
Doesn't seem right.

I played a game of 8 ball where I sank 3 stripes. Due to the layout and my first shot I shot solids. I ran out the rack. My opponent got 3 points for sitting

 

[hang-the-9]

OK, sorry, let me try to be clearer. I havent seen 8ball played in league on a ball per point count. I have only seen it as rack wins. In that case, I can see how scratching and making a ball in your group could be a benefit as the ball stays down and that's one less ball to make.

USAPL does points, and other count balls you make for handicapping so even though the balls don't count for the score, they do count for something. In APA and TAP, maybe BCA it would probably count as a dead ball so no one gets points for it.

 

[measureman]

Please pardon my ignorance, but I don't appreciate the significance of 50 points. Would a match be a race to 50 points? I thought 8 ball leagues played some fixed number of games against another team, like 16 games for the week, in a round-robin format.

In my league the winner gets 10 points and the loser gets a point for each ball pocketed
We have 5 man teams so if you win all 5 games you have scored a 50.

So a ball pocketed on a double hit cue ball could win the match for the fouling team by 1 point.
doesn't seem fair.

 

[hang-the-9]

In my league the winner gets 10 points and the loser gets a point for each ball pocketed
We have 5 man teams so if you win all 5 games you have scored a 50.

So a ball pocketed on a double hit cue ball could win the match for the fouling team by 1 point.
doesn't seem fair.

Would a ball you made for the other person count towards their score? Say their ball was hanging in the pocket, and you shot yours through it or you just knocked a ball in after making yours or off the break and then you run out. If not, then a ball that goes in on a foul should not count either. If the balls count for them even if you shot them in, then they should also count on the foul shot. Or you should make a rule about dead balls where any ball not made by the player or on a foul don't count for points. So you break, make 4 balls, but scratch. All those balls have 0 value.

 

[easy-e]

Please pardon my ignorance, but I don't appreciate the significance of 50 points. Would a match be a race to 50 points? I thought 8 ball leagues played some fixed number of games against another team, like 16 games for the week, in a round-robin format.

The 50 point example was pulled out of the air.

 

[jviss]

In my league the winner gets 10 points and the loser gets a point for each ball pocketed
We have 5 man teams so if you win all 5 games you have scored a 50.

So a ball pocketed on a double hit cue ball could win the match for the fouling team by 1 point.
doesn't seem fair.

I'm sorry, I still don't get this. If your team wins all 5 games, the absolute most number of points the opposing team could score is 35. How does the winning team win by one point?

As I see it, the only difference between pocketing a ball cleanly, or with a double-hit, is that in the latter case your inning ends. There's no other impact on the point score, unless I am missing something.

 

[measureman]

I'm sorry, I still don't get this. If your team wins all 5 games, the absolute most number of points the opposing team could score is 35. How does the winning team win by one point?

As I see it, the only difference between pocketing a ball cleanly, or with a double-hit, is that in the latter case your inning ends. There's no other impact on the point score, unless I am missing something.

Ok let's try this again.
Each player plays 5 games. If that player wins all 5 he gets 50 points.
I could win by the following scores
10-4
10-0
10-5
10-7
10-2
Now thats just an example
But with 25 games played the math could come out to be a 1 point win.


The 5 opponents score by the amount of balls pocketed.
It's possible that the opposing team can win by 1 point.
We have 5 players each plays 5 games and total score for all 25 games is what counts.Minus any handicap spot.

 

[BC21]

So a player can intentionally commit the foul and the ball stays down and he is awarded a point on a foul?
Doesn't seem right.

Oh yes. But sometimes it's smart strategy, like if you have no open pocket whatsoever and only need one more ball/point to win the match....I've seen smart players play an illegal combo just yo get that point, or jump the CB into their ball and send it off the table. They give their opponent cb in hand, but they still get the point and win the match

 

[jviss]

Ok let's try this again.
Each player plays 5 games. If that player wins all 5 he gets 50 points.
I could win by the following scores
10-4
10-0
10-5
10-7
10-2
Now thats just an example
But with 25 games played the math could come out to be a 1 point win.


The 5 opponents score by the amount of balls pocketed.
It's possible that the opposing team can win by 1 point.
We have 5 players each plays 5 games and total score for all 25 games is what counts.Minus any handicap spot.

O.K., I didn't know you meant five games per person, and five people per team.

If a match is decided by points, and the margin can be a single point, then the 50 point example, and one player winning all of his games, and those scores, are really not helping to explain this.

Of course if the result of 25 games played is a margin of one point, then you can go ahead and assign that winning point as the point gained by the shot that was foul. But how do you make that assignment? Every point counts. The fact that you don't think it's fair that a match can be decided on one point, and that if there was a single case of a point scored when a foul was committed isn't really material. I imagine that in a league that's counting points and perhaps using a handicap system wants every point to be counted. You might lobby for a rule change, but it would be interesting to know why the rule is as it is now.

 

[hang-the-9]

Oh yes. But sometimes it's smart strategy, like if you have no open pocket whatsoever and only need one more ball/point to win the match....I've seen smart players play an illegal combo just yo get that point, or jump the CB into their ball and send it off the table. They give their opponent cb in hand, but they still get the point and win the match

This is why those balls should be counted as dead. Winning on a foul shot is cheap and should not be allowed in any rules. Pretty much same as bar rules where you have to kick at a balls behind the line. Guy fouls, now you need to kick. Being rewarded for a foul or being punished for an opponent's foul is not smart strategy, it's bad rules and bad play.

 

[jviss]

This is why those balls should be counted as dead. Winning on a foul shot is cheap and should not be allowed in any rules. Pretty much same as bar rules where you have to kick at a balls behind the line. Guy fouls, now you need to kick. Being rewarded for a foul or being punished for an opponent's foul is not smart strategy, it's bad rules and bad play.

BCA says:

15. FOUL PENALTY.
Opposing player gets cue ball in hand. This means that the player can place the cue ball anywhere on the table (does not have to be behind the headstring except on opening break). This rule prevents a player from making intentional fouls which would put his opponent at a disadvantage.
​

If you have a point of a foul-pocketed ball but not ball in hand, the problem is worse.

 

[Maniac]

Let me see if I can help (probably not).

About 10 or 12 years ago I played on an 8-ball team that used BCA rules. This was not the current BCPL rules.

Each ball of your group counted as one point, with the 8-ball counting as two. After the 8-ball was made, the non-winner's balls left on the table were counted up. You take that amount and subtract it from ten and that was his points for the game. Balls knocked on the floor and shots made during a foul didn't matter. The winner of the rack got ten points and the non-winner got 10 points minus however many points were left on the table.

If I sank the 8-ball I got 10 points. If he had three balls left on the table, he got 7 points. If the 8-ball was made early without a scratch, it was spotted and the incoming player still had to run the rest of his balls (if there was any). If a shooter scratched upon making the 8-ball, he lost the game and the winner got 10 points regardless of how many balls he had left on the table.

In other words....there were no dead balls.

So in that format, a player could get a point or points by committing a foul and making a ball(s).

Hope this helps.

Maniac

 

[Cornerman]

In point per ball leagues, at least APA and BCA, if a player fouls on a ball, it stays down and is a dead ball for that rack. No one gets the point...

Sigh.....

The answer was given.

 

[fastone371]

Oh yes. But sometimes it's smart strategy, like if you have no open pocket whatsoever and only need one more ball/point to win the match....I've seen smart players play an illegal combo just yo get that point, or jump the CB into their ball and send it off the table. They give their opponent cb in hand, but they still get the point and win the match

Yes, I have had my partner in a scotch doubles game play intentional fouls so we could get that last ball off of the table that we needed to secure a win. Sometimes an intetional foul gives you the best chance at winning. in an 8 ball match my opponents last ball was tied with the 8 ball, when I moved my ball to a good location to break out the 8 while pocketing my ball my opponent pocketed my ball, even though he gave up BIH it made things more difficult for me. Its not always a bad strategy to play an intentional foul.

 

[Maniac]

Pretty much same as bar rules where you have to kick at a balls behind the line. Guy fouls, now you need to kick. Being rewarded for a foul or being punished for an opponent's foul is not smart strategy, it's bad rules and bad play.

Oh great God, let's not bring bar rules into the discussion. :thumbup:

Maniac

 

[tatcat2000]

If everyone would just slow down a little please...

As it has been observed different leagues have different scoring systems, so the correct answer to the OP situation depends entirely on the league. There simply is no single answer covering everything.

In many leagues ball count determines the winner. Whether or not the ball counts depends on the league rules. In some leagues it will count, in others it will not. Whether or not it is fair to claim a game, set or match win on a ball pocketed on a foul stroke is a matter of morality to be sure, but the rules set the standard, not morality.

In CSI play, which includes BCAPL and USAPL play, rules differ. In BCAPL play, there are as many different sets of handicapping and scoring systems as there are leagues - dozens and dozens of different systems, maybe no two the same.

While CSI Rule 2.7 does make reference to the ball counting in favor of the person with that group, that rule may be modified at will by league operators per CSI Rule 10-9. I'm sure somewhere an LO has considered the situation and made such a modification.

In USAPL play, there is a specific rule that prohibits the illegally pocketed ball from winning a set or match:

Winning Ball Rule – 8-Ball & 9-Ball

Any ball that brings your total score or your team’s total score to a point that wins a set, must be legally pocketed. If a ball that would normally achieve that score is illegally pocketed, the following procedures apply:

a. Your inning ends. Any foul in conjunction with the illegally pocketed ball is applied normally.

b. The point for the illegally pocketed ball is deferred until you legally pocket another ball.

c. If you do not legally pocket any more balls in that game, the illegally pocketed ball is not scored.

d. If you legally pocket another ball in that game, you are credited with the illegally pocketed ball.

e. If more than one ball is illegally pocketed in such a situation, illegally pocketed balls are scored immediately up to the point at which one more ball is needed to win the game or match. The remaining illegally pocketed ball is deferred (Example: two balls are needed to win, and two balls are illegally pocketed. The first illegally pocketed ball is scored immediately; the second illegally pocketed ball is deferred.)

That rule was added about three years after USAPL started.

A side note on the CSI rule. When 2.7 was written in 2007, we did not contemplate the OP situation. We were knee deep in the new rule set and it simply didn't come up. The language that is still in CSI 2.7 was pulled from the then-current WSR 4.16, Illegally Pocketed Balls (since obsolete):

...Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes."

Current WSR no longer addresses or defines an illegally pocketed ball, so if your league is playing under WSR (there is no such thing as "BCA rules"), then it is up to your league rules. All WSR states about 8-ball (in WSR 3.7) is that no ball is ever spotted unless it is the 8-ball made on the break.

Can't answer for other leagues...if you want to know about them, now let the chaos continue... :smile:

Buddy

 

[jviss]

Each ball of your group counted as one point, with the 8-ball counting as two.

Did you mean three? I don't think the math that follows makes sense unless the 8 ball is three points.

 

[tatcat2000]

BCA says:

15. FOUL PENALTY.
Opposing player gets cue ball in hand. This means that the player can place the cue ball anywhere on the table (does not have to be behind the headstring except on opening break). This rule prevents a player from making intentional fouls which would put his opponent at a disadvantage.
​

If you have a point of a foul-pocketed ball but not ball in hand, the problem is worse.

Not sure where you got this, but it sounds obsolete. There is no longer any such thing as "BCA" rules...this sounds like a very old version of WSR, or pre-1998 rules.