Sandbaggers on APA Regionals
- Thread starter Guerra Cues
- Start date
This makes me smile....
To play APA, you have to realize it isnt about pool, but it is how to maniplate the system.
It isnt about pool, I have seen it for years. Its okay, accept it and move on.
I smile on those players whose goal is to be a 7. Most players are trying to move down, or at least not move up, but there are always players that see that raising their skill level as the goal.
Just smile like they are a foreigner and you really dont understand a word they are saying, ignore them and move on.
Ken
To play APA, you have to realize it isnt about pool, but it is how to maniplate the system.
It isnt about pool, I have seen it for years. Its okay, accept it and move on.
I smile on those players whose goal is to be a 7. Most players are trying to move down, or at least not move up, but there are always players that see that raising their skill level as the goal.
Just smile like they are a foreigner and you really dont understand a word they are saying, ignore them and move on.
Ken
My take on it is...defining sandbagging is like define "selling out" in music, each player will define it differently. A) There are players who deliberately sandbag (if you watch them play a few times, you can tell, i.e. they lose matches badly on purpose) and B) there are players who aren't exactly trying to move their skill level up, but generally they're trying to win, just not in the most efficient way. I feel this is much more common than deliberate sandbagging, at least in my area. Those are roughly the two ends of the spectrum.
I don't take APA as seriously as I used to and have always felt the regional play is kind of a crock anyway so I don't care much about it. I'm happy just playing week in/week out.
I don't take APA as seriously as I used to and have always felt the regional play is kind of a crock anyway so I don't care much about it. I'm happy just playing week in/week out.
Obviously...
Its to go to regionals, or Vegas.
Secondly, I dont play in APA currently, but local tourneyments if handicaped go by APA skill level (
).
All is good, just dont take it too seriously. League pool ISNT about pool.
If you want to play pool, match up and play someone.
Ken
Robbie said:
Its to go to regionals, or Vegas.
Secondly, I dont play in APA currently, but local tourneyments if handicaped go by APA skill level (
). All is good, just dont take it too seriously. League pool ISNT about pool.
If you want to play pool, match up and play someone.
Ken
It's ironic such a thread would begin today. Last night, I found out two members of my team had their handicaps go up. As a result, we're barely able to field a team which means this will be our last season together. As a result, we're looking into moving the team to another league.
All of this is merely a never-ending problem with the APA. I mean, we can sit down and LIST the problems with the APA. The fact is, most of us play in it either because there are no alternatives or because we enjoy the company but it's not because we think it's the ultimate amateur competition out there. Amateur pool is FAR more intense than what the APA offers and I honestly believe if you keep APA competition as one fun night out of your week and try not to take the results seriously, you'll be a happier person.
All of this is merely a never-ending problem with the APA. I mean, we can sit down and LIST the problems with the APA. The fact is, most of us play in it either because there are no alternatives or because we enjoy the company but it's not because we think it's the ultimate amateur competition out there. Amateur pool is FAR more intense than what the APA offers and I honestly believe if you keep APA competition as one fun night out of your week and try not to take the results seriously, you'll be a happier person.
Ken_4fun said:Its to go to regionals, or Vegas.
Secondly, I dont play in APA currently, but local tourneyments if handicaped go by APA skill level (
All is good, just dont take it too seriously. League pool ISNT about pool.
If you want to play pool, match up and play someone.
Ken
See, thats the part I dont understand. (In our area) the trip to Vegas is worth about $500. Thats approx what youd pay in a year in league fees, etc... add on expenses for the nights out, and you are losing (in more way than one I guess).
Ive just found that people that practice losing (sandbagging), get good at it. I dont want to be good at losing. The guys in my league who I know sandbag, Ive never seen them do well in an non-handicapped event.
Im one of those guys youd just make fun of I guess. Im an SL7 in 8ball, and an SL8 in 9ball. I form a new team every year with my friends, bringing new ones in, have alot of fun, and tell everyone to try their best (foolish I know). Some weeks I sit out because my SL is too high to make handicap. Doesnt bother me at all. Rather do that than dump, anyday. I could take no pride in dumping just so that a whole bunch of weaker players could contribute to paying for me to go to Vegas every year.
And I can honestly say that playing in the league has helped me with my results in non-league tournies.
If the goal is to go to Vegas, why not just put $10 into a bank account every week for a year?
Jude Rosenstock said:
Jude
this is exactly my point. The current handicap limit has got to go. I'm not saying that it should allow all 6's, but in a league where if you don't manipulate handicaps, everyone winds up as a 5, there has to be some relief. Even if a rule is implemented that the limit is based on your handicap at the beginning of the session, there would be some relief as players could actually improve without significant penalty. Of course, if I ran the whole deal, I'd take the pool of players and provide some sort of "draft" to make up teams. With proper controls on the "draft", the rest of the season would go much easier. If its all about sandbagging at the team level, its all about money for the APA, so I doubt anything will ever change.
tim
Bakersfield Regionals
As to why it is in Bakersfield. The biggest reason is because of the central location. You have people showing up from San Francisco - Sacramento area (5 hr drive north of Bakersfield) to San Diego (5 hr drive south of Bakersfield) to Las Vegas (6 hr drive east of Bakersfield). And all the areas inbetween those extremes.
I did meet some nice people there including bestkites and OnCue4U. BTW, Shawn Ferest SL 7 was on fire at the end of the tournament and beat Brian Parks SL 9+ to go to the finals. I made Brian a 9+ because he is better than most other nines. He has won the APA nationals twice and beat another SL 9 that day by a score of 75 to 0. But by the time it got to the final match he had gone cold while waiting and Shawn was on fire.
I do agree that there should have been at least 2 free practice tables. Last year there was. They could have used 7 & 8 for free practice. As far as the head goes. The stall door was there until about a week ago when some gang bangers tore it down. A new one is on order but that did not help for this last weekend.bestkites said:
As to why it is in Bakersfield. The biggest reason is because of the central location. You have people showing up from San Francisco - Sacramento area (5 hr drive north of Bakersfield) to San Diego (5 hr drive south of Bakersfield) to Las Vegas (6 hr drive east of Bakersfield). And all the areas inbetween those extremes.
I did meet some nice people there including bestkites and OnCue4U. BTW, Shawn Ferest SL 7 was on fire at the end of the tournament and beat Brian Parks SL 9+ to go to the finals. I made Brian a 9+ because he is better than most other nines. He has won the APA nationals twice and beat another SL 9 that day by a score of 75 to 0. But by the time it got to the final match he had gone cold while waiting and Shawn was on fire.
advice
Jude gave good advice. The handicap system in the APA has many flaws, but their main goal is participation, don't forget that. I will say it again, the best league with National roots I have shot in is the BCA advanced 8 ball league.
Handicap systems try to level the playing field, but at the same time, they remove the motivation to be the best. Players would rather be the best of their handicap, and everyone gets tired of losing consecutively.
All the best players around here do not even bother with league play anymore, it is like fighting an uphill battle all the time, and you can win more money playing tournaments and matching up. Plus, you don't have to play every week, one or more times a week. Inhouse leagues have become a lot more popular the last few years around here because you don't have to travel, and their league rules are more equitable for ALL players.
Instead of all you guys complaining constantly about the APA, why don't you look into forming an inhouse league at your favorite Pool room, or to become a league operator for the VNEA or BCA. It will only change if someone takes some action in your city.
Jude gave good advice. The handicap system in the APA has many flaws, but their main goal is participation, don't forget that. I will say it again, the best league with National roots I have shot in is the BCA advanced 8 ball league.
Handicap systems try to level the playing field, but at the same time, they remove the motivation to be the best. Players would rather be the best of their handicap, and everyone gets tired of losing consecutively.
All the best players around here do not even bother with league play anymore, it is like fighting an uphill battle all the time, and you can win more money playing tournaments and matching up. Plus, you don't have to play every week, one or more times a week. Inhouse leagues have become a lot more popular the last few years around here because you don't have to travel, and their league rules are more equitable for ALL players.
Instead of all you guys complaining constantly about the APA, why don't you look into forming an inhouse league at your favorite Pool room, or to become a league operator for the VNEA or BCA. It will only change if someone takes some action in your city.
stikapos said:
But that's what I mean - It's time to leave the APA, then. If you have no alternatives, it's time to start thinking about creating one. My APA team has grown very close and I don't think we have any interest in changing the roster. If the league will not allow us to compete, we'll change leagues but we're not changing the team.
You think about it for even a fraction of a moment, team competition is all about being with the same group of friends week after week for months, if not years. I'm sorry, I'm tired of changing groups. Instead, I think I'll just change leagues.
Snapshot9 said:
Just what I was going to say - except, minus the VNEA. I believe only Valley authorized vendors are allowed to run VNEA leagues.
BCA, however, can be run by anyone as best I can tell - and the two systems are almost identical - and what handicap system there *is*, is 100% transparent and is not nearly as open to manipulation.
I got bumped up this year to a 5 in 8 ball and found myself without my normal team and had been replaced with 'new' players. They are currently all SL3's.
Word on the grapevine is, one of them used to run 80s and 90s in snooker!
Thats what you get for playing well, a good motivator for me.
Word on the grapevine is, one of them used to run 80s and 90s in snooker!
Thats what you get for playing well, a good motivator for me.
Snapshot9 said:
TAP TAP TAP!!!
Yes, go to the BCA website. If you need further advice on starting a BCA league, PM me and I will forward you to the right people. The one here has been an incredible success. We're having our 10 year anniversary this September and the league has never been stronger. One room, two nights, 30 teams. Our top players over the years include Tony Robles, Mika Immonen, George "Ginky" SanSouci, Steve Lipsky, Jennifer Barretta, Tiffany Nelson, Kim Shaw (I can go on).
Now for my thoughts on Sandbaggers
I realize that everyone can a catch a gear and be really good for a night, few hours, a week or more. Those are not the people I am talking about. I am talking about the people you know they are sandbagging. You can see them plotting out their misses ahead of time just to up the inning and not because they need to leave the oppenent bad.
For those people I do 2 things. I give them defensive shots. I had one sandbagger 3 play our 2 who really can't shoot her way out of a bag and it took 34 innings. I watched him plan his misses. I asked the opposing team if that was a defensive shot and they said no even though it was obviously a defensive shot. I told them OK, no problem. At the end of the match he had 30 defensive shots marked on the sheet to go with his 34 innings and was writen up and the statement was submitted to the LO and the board of ethics for review.
The board had a third party watch him and he went from a SL 3 to a SL 5. That is how we take care of SB's around here.
Most people in my league know that I do not sandbag or cheat. I call fouls on myself when no one else sees them and on my team when they do something wrong.bestkites said:
I realize that everyone can a catch a gear and be really good for a night, few hours, a week or more. Those are not the people I am talking about. I am talking about the people you know they are sandbagging. You can see them plotting out their misses ahead of time just to up the inning and not because they need to leave the oppenent bad.
For those people I do 2 things. I give them defensive shots. I had one sandbagger 3 play our 2 who really can't shoot her way out of a bag and it took 34 innings. I watched him plan his misses. I asked the opposing team if that was a defensive shot and they said no even though it was obviously a defensive shot. I told them OK, no problem. At the end of the match he had 30 defensive shots marked on the sheet to go with his 34 innings and was writen up and the statement was submitted to the LO and the board of ethics for review.
The board had a third party watch him and he went from a SL 3 to a SL 5. That is how we take care of SB's around here.
I know it takes all kinds to make this world go round, so I shouldn't be surprised to see somebody admit on az that he cheats. Thats all it really is; if your not in it for the love of pool or the team camaraderie then what else is it. I spoke to the LO of an APA league that I dropped from, and he truly hoped that the league members didn't join for the sole purpose of the trip but rather to have some fun. Obviously fun is not the motivator for you and many others, and your type is the reason I do not play in handicapped events.Ken_4fun said:Its to go to regionals, or Vegas.
Secondly, I dont play in APA currently, but local tourneyments if handicaped go by APA skill level (
All is good, just dont take it too seriously. League pool ISNT about pool.
If you want to play pool, match up and play someone.
Ken
Scott Lee said:RunoutalloverU...This is only true, if the league operator doesn't care. I had 80 teams (over 600 players) in my APA league, and I knew EVERY one of them. I also had a standard rule, that if you sandbagged, even once, you were automatically, and permanently raised to the top skill level. If you didn't like it...QUIT! I had NO sandbagging in my leagues, for the four years I ran them...ZERO!...and I'm very proud of that fact.
Scott Lee ~ former APA league operator
www.poolknowledge.com
None that you know of at least.
Half the APA members I know talk about how they lost to keep their skill down, or have told new players to the league to "not play your speed". On the other hand, my brother-in law and his team went to Vegas 2 years in a row, and he's a 9, plus a few other high players, so sandbagging is not the only way to Vegas, sometimes just having a good team is enough.
StormHotRod300 said:
That is all fine and dandy until you have to play at the Regional level where they are watching. When a Sl2 or 3 starts running 5+ balls at a time they will get bumped. And IF they get to Nationals then when they run out on players they will have a referee watch them and if they go up two skill levels then they will be disqualified from the tourney.
I say practice, get better, become a good SL7 and then you don't have to worry about it.
UWPoolGod1 said:
Exactly. I think it has more to do with human nature than just the league. There are people that will struggle as an SL6, for example. Some of those will try to get better. Others will dump to go down to a 5. Some are pool players, some are not.
I have heard good things about the BCA league. I just prefer CPA/APA because I get to play a match against an opponent. Not a fan of playing one game, sit around for a while, play one more game.