Schedule for shaft wood.

Paul, if someone were to make a dvd on what to look for in a shaft dowel, how to grade them and the proper technique to off set the centers to ensure a straight grain line, I would be the first in line to buy one.

Of the hundreds of hours of free instruction here, thats one part that remains kind of sketchy to me. I appreciate all the free info on here. If you think about it, a person might have to live two life times in order to figure
out everything thats needed to know to build cues on their own.

I would pay dearly for that one dvd or info.
 
Paul Dayton said:
As an additional suggestion, it really pays off if you make sure to offset the centers of your straight dowels to get the straightest grain lines on the ferrule end of the shaft. Also look out for any bend in the grain in the front end because it will end up as an eye catching stripe that makes new shafts unsaleable

It doesn't matter what level you are at as a cue maker, the most important thing you will ever purchase is wood,particulatly shafts, handles and fronts, all of which need seasoning and turning before using.Before a CNC or pantograph you should be accumulating wood. A number of makers, myself included have shafts that won't be ready to use for 6 years and we continue to sort and reject with each turning. There isn't much worse than compkletely finiishing a cue only to have a shaft warp, mandating a rebuild.
Click to expand...

tap tap tap PD.
I offset to get to the best orientation at around .650" end cones.
If one end has to be offset more than 3/16 , that shaft would be on probation from the get go. :eek:
 
Last edited:
Blue Hog ridr said:
Paul, if someone were to make a dvd on what to look for in a shaft dowel, how to grade them and the proper technique to off set the centers to ensure a straight grain line, I would be the first in line to buy one.

Of the hundreds of hours of free instruction here, thats one part that remains kind of sketchy to me. I appreciate all the free info on here. If you think about it, a person might have to live two life times in order to figure
out everything thats needed to know to build cues on their own.

I would pay dearly for that one dvd or info.
Click to expand...

Did you ever get your answer rookie ?:grin-square:
If you haven't, I can send you pics.
 
Last edited:
Is it possible that Ernie, Tad, ect...ect. Have all these old shafts laying around because they just don't like them or they simply make 10-25 cues a year?

If you have 500 really nice shafts and only sell 30 cues a year that's enough for the next 15 years....

I haven't done this long enough to speak quantitatively on my own really. I don't take years to turn my shafts down, but I don't see them warping. They were cut in a matter of months.

The 2 top tier makers I know, have sat with, and spoken to about the matter said that years are not necessary. Again from square to finish in a few months.

I WILL certainly agree with "you can't cut them too slow, but you can cut them too fast".

BTW, the 2 guys have over 50 years of combined building and are highly respected. I"m not going to mention their names, so don't ask.
 
A lot of info here but...

It's not the Magical Mystery Tour. There is no secret or magic to making a quality shaft. All it requires is quality, properly dried wood and most importantly properly cut. There is no need to store wood 10 years before you can safely use it. This is a myth. We agree with what Randy stated, it can be cut pretty quickly and used with great success. Keyword here is experience and confidence.

Yeah, it all sounds great that we age our wood 40 years before we use it. It sounds great to the layman when someone says, I'm just now using shaft wood from 2002. Truth is, it's not necesary.

Shaft schedules are great and quite useful but...
We advise people to go slowly and start cutting slowly with 4 weeks minimum between cuts. We say this as it's safe. You can then tweek it from there to your specific locale. If we start off telling you to cut shafts in two weeks, it may not work for everyone but 4 weeks is pretty safe no matter where you are. Once again, it's different in all parts of the country. And, let's not forget where is your shop located? In your garage without heat but with A/C? In your garage with heat and A/C? Are you in Montana or The Panhandle of Florida? Do you have a dehumidifier? Do you need one? All this matters and no one can tell you what is best for you except gaining the experience first hand; by doing it yourself where you're located.

When we were in Boca Raton, Florida our cutting was vastly different than when we were in Vegas. Night and day difference. You adjust your cutting schedule to whatever works for you in your area.

Where are you? Florida? Vegas? Arizona? Michigan? Canada? Timbuktu? All this matters. You can use schedules as a guide but nothing is etched in stone. Work from a particular schedule and modify it to your needs. Just because George can go from 1" dowels to .750 cones in one pass doesn't mean you can. Figure out your own schedule by using all this info.
 
Joe Barringer said:
Where are you? Florida? Vegas? Arizona? Michigan? Canada? Timbuktu? All this matters. You can use schedules as a guide but nothing is etched in stone. Work from a particular schedule and modify it to your needs. Just because George can go from 1" dowels to .750 cones in one pass doesn't mean you can. Figure out your own schedule by using all this info.
Click to expand...

Good post. There is even a little difference between Georgia and Missouri. There can also be a difference whether your working out of a basement or garage. Sealer being needed or not being needed also works different in different environments.
 
pescadoman said:
Is it possible that Ernie, Tad, ect...ect. Have all these old shafts laying around because they just don't like them or they simply make 10-25 cues a year?

If you have 500 really nice shafts and only sell 30 cues a year that's enough for the next 15 years....

I haven't done this long enough to speak quantitatively on my own really. I don't take years to turn my shafts down, but I don't see them warping. They were cut in a matter of months.

The 2 top tier makers I know, have sat with, and spoken to about the matter said that years are not necessary. Again from square to finish in a few months.

I WILL certainly agree with "you can't cut them too slow, but you can cut them too fast".

BTW, the 2 guys have over 50 years of combined building and are highly respected. I"m not going to mention their names, so don't ask.
Click to expand...
Let them sit at .535 and .525 for a year each. You'll feel better.
Let them sit in a semi-controlled room.
They have to be prepared to go to the real world.
The real world is not 74 degrees and 45% humidity all the time.
Seasoning is literal to me.
 
I'd like to reinforce what Joe said about the quality of wood. I was going to post it last night, but it was late.

It all starts with good wood..... If you can get great shaftwood for 5 bucks a piece then more power to you. Great wood for shafts can be subjective, but the bottom line is garbage in......garbage out(regardless of how many years they sit).

If you buy 100 pieces at 5.00 and lose half over 6 months with the schedule Chris posted, then something is probably wrong with the wood you bought.

You could have spent that same amount on half as many BETTER quality and lost alot less. Add to that all the labor involved in cutting an extra 50 shafts and you should start to see my point..
 
JoeyInCali said:
Let them sit at .535 and .525 for a year each. You'll feel better.
Let them sit in a semi-controlled room.
They have to be prepared to go to the real world.
The real world is not 74 degrees and 45% humidity all the time.
Seasoning is literal to me.
Click to expand...

Joey....I'm old and could be dead it two years. How many times have you told people not to leave their cues in there car? How many times have the same people not listened?

Cues and shafts are like kids. You can only protect them whilst in the womb. Once they are adopted it's hard to know what kind of parents they have gotten....:(
 
cueman said:
Good post. There is even a little difference between Georgia and Missouri. There can also be a difference whether your working out of a basement or garage. Sealer being needed or not being needed also works different in different environments.
Click to expand...

Thanks! There is even a difference between central Florida, south Florida and northern Florida! We advise everyone to seal shafts and it's worked just fine for us for as long as we can remember. Of course, you can choose to not seal your shafts. Many use Nelsonite, Resolute or even our Shaft Dip while others choose to use nothing. I would venture to say that most of the more experienced Cue Makers do seal as opposed to the experienced Cue Makers who do not seal (based on the fact that we have sold and sell the products). That's been our experience. We believe sealing can never hurt and in fact does improve a shafts stability in your shop as well as over the lifetime of the shaft.

And then there are many neophytes who need to have shafts resting for a year prior to giving them out in the cold, cruel world as they are still in the learning curve. This lengthy resting period insures to them that their shafts will hold up. It takes time to master the art of selecting, cutting and stabilizing shafts for use in the general public. Eventually most 'get it'. :grin:
 
Paul Dayton said:
I cut mine every May. I'm starting to use my 2004 wood now.
Click to expand...

That's a long time.
Good stock from Champeau too.
As an additional suggestion, it really pays off if you make sure to offset the centers of your straight dowels to get the straightest grain lines on the ferrule end of the shaft. Also look out for any bend in the grain in the front end because it will end up as an eye catching stripe that makes new shafts unsaleable.
Click to expand...
I agree. Some claim their re-labeled boards have magic. Grains line up to the tea end to end.
I won't argue this point with you specially if an out of production factory claims otherwise.

http://theactionreport.com/Gina.html
Ernie must be blowing smoke in this vid. I was kinda shocked he puts them big drums.
pescadoman said:
Is it possible that Ernie, Tad, ect...ect. Have all these old shafts laying around because they just don't like them or they simply make 10-25 cues a year?

If you have 500 really nice shafts and only sell 30 cues a year that's enough for the next 15 years....

I haven't done this long enough to speak quantitatively on my own really. I don't take years to turn my shafts down, but I don't see them warping. They were cut in a matter of months.

The 2 top tier makers I know, have sat with, and spoken to about the matter said that years are not necessary. Again from square to finish in a few months.

I WILL certainly agree with "you can't cut them too slow, but you can cut them too fast".

BTW, the 2 guys have over 50 years of combined building and are highly respected. I"m not going to mention their names, so don't ask.
Click to expand...

I think Tad's shop puts out 70 cues a year.
Tad's shafts are the best out there imo.
And they are famous for being straight after so many years outside of the US.
I don't know if you get really dry days from where you are.
But, if you do, check what happens to the dowels during really dry days then after a few weeks when climate becomes normal again.
If are in NoCal and near the ocean. The dowels are in cruise control there.
 
Last edited:
Joe Barringer said:
A lot of info here but...

It's not the Magical Mystery Tour. There is no secret or magic to making a quality shaft. All it requires is quality, properly dried wood and most importantly properly cut. There is no need to store wood 10 years before you can safely use it. This is a myth. We agree with what Randy stated, it can be cut pretty quickly and used with great success. Keyword here is experience and confidence.

Yeah, it all sounds great that we age our wood 40 years before we use it. It sounds great to the layman when someone says, I'm just now using shaft wood from 2002. Truth is, it's not necesary.

Shaft schedules are great and quite useful but...
We advise people to go slowly and start cutting slowly with 4 weeks minimum between cuts. We say this as it's safe. You can then tweek it from there to your specific locale. If we start off telling you to cut shafts in two weeks, it may not work for everyone but 4 weeks is pretty safe no matter where you are. Once again, it's different in all parts of the country. And, let's not forget where is your shop located? In your garage without heat but with A/C? In your garage with heat and A/C? Are you in Montana or The Panhandle of Florida? Do you have a dehumidifier? Do you need one? All this matters and no one can tell you what is best for you except gaining the experience first hand; by doing it yourself where you're located.

When we were in Boca Raton, Florida our cutting was vastly different than when we were in Vegas. Night and day difference. You adjust your cutting schedule to whatever works for you in your area.

Where are you? Florida? Vegas? Arizona? Michigan? Canada? Timbuktu? All this matters. You can use schedules as a guide but nothing is etched in stone. Work from a particular schedule and modify it to your needs. Just because George can go from 1" dowels to .750 cones in one pass doesn't mean you can. Figure out your own schedule by using all this info.
Click to expand...


Hi,

Joe has posted some great info here that IMO is critical to shaft handling. Location must be considered.

I am lucky to live in and area that has four seasons and I think that is a plus. My shaft get treated the way I treat myself concerning heat or air con. So my shop is alway at a temp that is not too hot or not too cold but the relative humidity does move around but I do not see my shaft wood moving around. A few bad puppies here and there but they are culled before the long rest at .910.

My shaft wood rests at .910 before I pick them for a build. I install the joint and ring work and take about .010 taper cut with two days between cut down to .860 .

I then seal the shaft with a wood hardener via a soaked paper towel and go to .005 passes and a couple of .002 passes hitting it with the sealer everytime until the end dimension. The hardened penetrates the wood and offer a case hardness to the wood that I can hear on my saw machine a the pitch of the sound is higher and the RMS finish is vey smooth after the final cut is made.

Tha works for me.

Good cue making,

Rick
 
"Cut and Paste"

I believe Chris mentioned something about cut and paste, I'll say that I have done quite a bit of cut and paste from this thread to word document!! Lots of very valuable information here. Thank you guys for sharing your experiences with us up and coming Cue Makers. Much RESPECT from Gainey Q's to all of you!! :bow-down: ~ Shawn
 
JoeyInCali said:
That's a long time.
Good stock from Champeau too.

I agree. Some claim their re-labeled boards have magic. Grains line up to the tea end to end.
I won't argue this point with you specially if an out of production factory claims otherwise.

http://theactionreport.com/Gina.html
Ernie must be blowing smoke in this vid. I was kinda shocked he puts them big drums.


I think Tad's shop puts out 70 cues a year.
Tad's shafts are the best out there imo.
And they are famous for being straight after so many years outside of the US.
I don't know if you get really dry days from where you are.
But, if you do, check what happens to the dowels during really dry days then after a few weeks when climate becomes normal again.
If are in NoCal and near the ocean. The dowels are in cruise control there.
Click to expand...

I live 90 miles north of you Joey, 5 miles inland from the Pacific. If it's 80 here it's HOT,45 and it's COLD. Our average temp throughout the year is about 60. I'm not accusing anyone....anywhere.... of blowing smoke.

If Tad puts out 70 a year and has 400 shafts, then he can take 5 years to cut them and be fine. Regardless, he has HIS time tested way of doing things and it works for HIM. I will also suggest that anyone who owns a Tad or Gina takes a bit more care of their cue....


In the video I believe I saw 3 or 4 barrels with I surmise 200 shafts each....800..

I think Ernie is the best.....I do. His ability and work ethic are something every cuemaker should strive to achieve. NO question in my mind. I have my doubts there will ever be another Ernie....ever.

I really like this post because it shows the enormous difference in opinions and the fact that each of us must find what is best for them. I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone who doesn't agree with me, nor take any offense.

In the wonderful video you linked, at around 37 mins, Ernie produces a 43 year old ivory handled and jointed BREAK cue. He says he breaks with it to prove ivory won't fall apart if you actually play with it. He immediately says something to the effect of "if you leave it in your car it WILL break". Again, once it leaves the shop it is beyond our protection.

Again, I am enjoying this topic very much and hope I haven't inadvertently offended any legends....
 
pescadoman said:
I live 90 miles north of you Joey, 5 miles inland from the Pacific. If it's 80 here it's HOT,45 and it's COLD. Our average temp throughout the year is about 60. I'm not accusing anyone....anywhere.... of blowing smoke.

If Tad puts out 70 a year and has 400 shafts, then he can take 5 years to cut them and be fine. Regardless, he has HIS time tested way of doing things and it works for HIM. I will also suggest that anyone who owns a Tad or Gina takes a bit more care of their cue....


In the video I believe I saw 3 or 4 barrels with I surmise 200 shafts each....800..

I think Ernie is the best.....I do. His ability and work ethic are something every cuemaker should strive to achieve. NO question in my mind. I have my doubts there will ever be another Ernie....ever.

I really like this post because it shows the enormous difference in opinions and the fact that each of us must find what is best for them. I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone who doesn't agree with me, nor take any offense.

In the wonderful video you linked, at around 37 mins, Ernie produces a 43 year old ivory handled and jointed BREAK cue. He says he breaks with it to prove ivory won't fall apart if you actually play with it. He immediately says something to the effect of "if you leave it in your car it WILL break". Again, once it leaves the shop it is beyond our protection.

Again, I am enjoying this topic very much and hope I haven't inadvertently offended any legends....
Click to expand...

Drop by sometime.
I'll show you my dowels. Bring some too so we can yap dowels all day or sumthin'. I got dowels from different sources and you might be amazed by their differences. I have a few racks right now.

Busti and Efren are gonna be at HT next month I heard. That might be a good cause to drive down.
Bring a VFD for my 5914 too.
 
Last edited:
I buy med priced shaft dowels from a reputable supplier. I taper them to .750 immediately and hang them. That way if I hit a sugar mark or a knot I can still use it for a coring dowel if it stays straight.

I cut them over 4 to 6 months. I cut them to .650, .600, .550 and let them hang until I am ready to use them. I do lose a few that go warped but not many.

My shop stays at 45% humidity.... plus or minus about 10%. I never have used any sealer or stabilizer on shafts. I never have had one warp. I have built about 50 cues.

Kim
 
We've heard from many beginners who state that they have to check and see what happens to their dowels during really dry days and then after a few weeks when the climate becomes normal again. This is due to inexperience and sometimes they think they know-it-all. We preach to constantly seal the wood. When we moved from Florida to Vegas and back again, we didn't lose one shaft and that was out of thousands and thousands in various stages of tapering. When you build cues in one area and then move to a totally different climate, you really learn quickly what's going on. And, you can't get any opposite than Florida and Vegas.

Remember, stabilizing a shaft in your location, your way is fine as long as the cue is staying there. However, if you plan on selling cues out of your area, simple shop stability is not enough and sitting long term is not enough.

Another example: We know someone who was living in South Florida, very South Florida and making cues. He was doing a great job or so he thought. I asked him to send me a cue while we were in Vegas. He overnighted it. I let it sit on my pool table for one day. Actually, is was much less than a day. The cue shrank and you could feel the inlays and points. It sat a few more days and I sent it back to him. After that he followed our instructions and his cues were fine from that point forward. He was a know-it-all. In fact, if he was to post on here he would most probably lead everyone in post count. Thank goodness he doesn't.

Point being: whether it's the butt or shaft, you don't know the difference unless you put your butts and shafts through that experience. Want to be certain....

Seal, seal, seal! I don't care where you are. Some claim to know-it-all when in reality they know less than you. Be wary my friends and your best experience is hands on and learn what's best for you by actually doing it and learn why it does certain things. A lot of the knowledge on here is great but don't be misled or misguided with misinformation from know-it-alls. They sometimes post on here. :eek: :grin:

Do it yourself. Learn it yourself. Yes, it's the long way but you'll be better off for it.
 
Last edited:
If you really want to know how to protect your wood against atmospheric humidity, the best thing you can do is to conduct carefully controlled scientific trials with various finishes.

Or...

You can get the Forest Product Laboratory at the U.S. Forest Service do it for you:


http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1987/feist87a.pdf


Bottom line, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to seal wood against water vapor over the long haul. The very best treatments require multiple heavy coats of epoxy, and even they allow water vapor in eventually. The least effective against water vapor are the sealers that many promote here. Even two-part poly is surprisingly ineffective against water vapor.

Finishes are fine to keep liquid water out, but water vapor always finds its way in until the wood reaches the EMC for the environment it is stored (or used) in, and even that changes by the season.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top