Schmidt/Harriman--Any updates?

[av84fun]

I remember seeing the table that Mosconi made his historic run on. That poolroom was still there well into the 60's. I lived in Dayton so Springfield was only 20 or so miles away. I believe it was an A.E. Schmidt over size 8'. This was the most common size table around the Midwest back then.

These were good tables (remember they were competing with Brunswick Anniversaries and Sport Kings), with straight cut pockets, fairly deep shelves and openings under 5". Not as tough as a Diamond today, but not as soft as one might think. Mosconi played on slow cloth with clay balls in 1956 (or was it 1954). I'd like to see any current player try to match that. They might have trouble running 100 balls.

Of course, if any present day player runs over 526 on a Diamond table, he will deserve the recognition he will receive. Same for a triple shimmed Gold Crown.

Jay, I know you were up late last night...but Brunswick introduced Ivorylene "plastic" balls in the early 1900s which went through a serious of upgrades until the early 1950s when cast phenolic took over.

I can't imagine that "clay" balls survived until the mid-1950s or if they did, that Willie would ever have permitted their use in any of his exhibitions.

You have forgotten more about pool history than I will ever know...so if I am wrong here, I would be pleased for you to educate me!
(-:

Jim

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, I know you were up late last night...but Brunswick introduced Ivorylene "plastic" balls in the early 1900s which went through a serious of upgrades until the early 1950s when cast phenolic took over.

I can't imagine that "clay" balls survived until the mid-1950s or if they did, that Willie would ever have permitted their use in any of his exhibitions.

You have forgotten more about pool history than I will ever know...so if I am wrong here, I would be pleased for you to educate me!
(-:

Jim

You could be right. I do remember using the good phenolic balls in the early 60's. But there were still lots of the old balls around. They were a lower quality ball possibly made by Hyatt. I just didn't think the good Belgian Aramith balls came around until the 60's. I thought everything was American made prior to that. The fiberglass resin balls made by Hyatt seemed to be a little lighter and not as uniform as the Belgian balls.

Bob Jewett would probably know the answer to this one. I am also curious as to what Mosconi played with back then.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

You could be right. I do remember using the good phenolic balls in the early 60's. But there were still lots of the old balls around. They were a lower quality ball possibly made by Hyatt. I just didn't think the good Belgian Aramith balls came around until the 60's. I thought everything was American made prior to that. The fiberglass resin balls made by Hyatt seemed to be a little lighter and not as uniform as the Belgian balls.

Bob Jewett would probably know the answer to this one. I am also curious as to what Mosconi played with back then.

Here's a link explaining this progress......

http://www.brunswickbilliards.com/our_rich_history/billiard_balls/index.html

Since I first started playing in 1970, I have always loved the way the Centennial balls looked. For some reason, the Aramith balls never did anything for me.
Here's a link for the Aramith ball history as well....
http://www.saluc.com/html/about-saluc.php

 

[gulfportdoc]

You could be right. I do remember using the good phenolic balls in the early 60's. But there were still lots of the old balls around. They were a lower quality ball possibly made by Hyatt.

Most of the rooms I played in the late 1950's around Pittsburgh all had the old clay balls. During the early 60's some of the better rooms started buying the newer better balls. I used to rescue used balls from the trash ot back of one room, then take them over to my regular dumpier room and sell them for 25 to 50 cents apiece. I felt like I was stealin'! Pennies from heaven. We played with many of the mud balls that had a visible crack in them. Once in a great while one would break apart... The mud balls had a much more solid click-- more like ivory.

Doc

 

[Fixer]

No picture for me today, only sound. Heavy traffic?

 

[av84fun]

Most of the rooms I played in the late 1950's around Pittsburgh all had the old clay balls. During the early 60's some of the better rooms started buying the newer better balls. I used to rescue used balls from the trash ot back of one room, then take them over to my regular dumpier room and sell them for 25 to 50 cents apiece. I felt like I was stealin'! Pennies from heaven. We played with many of the mud balls that had a visible crack in them. Once in a great while one would break apart... The mud balls had a much more solid click-- more like ivory.

Doc

Newer?? LOL! Ivorylenes had been on the market since about 1910!

(-:

Jim

 

[JoeyA]

I also would like to offer sincere congratulations to Danny. Wow! Beating Schmidt, who just beat Ortmann....Very good win indeed!

Is the pecking order being re-established? If a talent like that (Harriman) decides to stay with pool and continue to give his all, who knows what other exploits he has in him?

I also have great confidence in the solidness of John Schmidt's game, as well as his tenacity. He's still likely to win the next bunch of matches against anybody he plays. He's still a great player also.

There's still a lot of pool yet to be played.....

Is there anyone else who really hopes that Danny Harriman will change his mind and play in this year's U.S. 9 Ball Championship?
JoeyA

 

[elvicash]

Calling AZ - Break out the clayballs

I would like to know if anyone has a "NEW" unused set of the old clayballs. I cannot see them being all that valuable. Then let some of the modern high end players play some 14.1 with those kind of balls on some of the new IPT slow cloth.

Why, just so the endless bickering of trying to compare todays new set of 14.1 guns with the old school including Mosconi the icon.

I have heard when he traveled he carried his own balls. We will never know how Mosconi and his era would have played with these new better balls and cloths in their peak skill period but we could see how the modern could do with the old equipment.

If any one ever runs a 527 or higher on video or in front of people there is no doubt the non players and railbirds who will put down the player as he has done it on better or at least differnt equipment. I think it is only a matter of time till this happens because 14.1 is coming back stronger each year.

I would just like to know how the modern players JS,DH, Mika etc would play, I for one think they would adapt and make some great high run with the old balls and cloth. I think new players are knowledgeable and tenacious with alot of skills and will adapt to what is in front of them.

The old clay balls weren't as inclined to skid but the trade off was that you had to consider how each and every ball in the rack rolled. It was very rare to have a set of balls that rolled the same. I played with clay balls some, I'm not that old but the equipment I played on was. How hard to hit a ball and what shot you were willing to try to make depended on which ball you were shooting at. It wasn't enough to know the shots, you had to know each ball also.

No need to take my word for which balls were harder to play with though. Joe Davis' entire autobiography was online the last I knew although I have lost my bookmark. He talks about the runs and scores soaring when they changed to the much more consistent plastic balls. The level of execution is greater today however I do think that the knowledge and understanding needed to play the game at the highest level was greater on the old equipment.

All of this being said, there is no doubt in my mind that Mosconi's record would fall if 14.1 had a resurgence in popularity for five years or so.

Hu

 

[The Saw]

I would like to know if anyone has a "NEW" unused set of the old clayballs. I cannot see them being all that valuable. Then let some of the modern high end players play some 14.1 with those kind of balls on some of the new IPT slow cloth.

Why, just so the endless bickering of trying to compare todays new set of 14.1 guns with the old school including Mosconi the icon.

I have heard when he traveled he carried his own balls. We will never know how Mosconi and his era would have played with these new better balls and cloths in their peak skill period but we could see how the modern could do with the old equipment.

If any one ever runs a 527 or higher on video or in front of people there is no doubt the non players and railbirds who will put down the player as he has done it on better or at least differnt equipment. I think it is only a matter of time till this happens because 14.1 is coming back stronger each year.

I would just like to know how the modern players JS,DH, Mika etc would play, I for one think they would adapt and make some great high run with the old balls and cloth. I think new players are knowledgeable and tenacious with alot of skills and will adapt to what is in front of them.

I know this whole Mosconi 526 subject has been beat to death but here are the facts: they did use old "clay" type balls, nap cloth, and it was on an 8' Brunswick Sports King with 5-1/2" pockets. Snipped from the Wikipedia page for Willie Mosconi-->>> "The record was set on a 4 foot x 8 foot Brunswick pool table with 5 1/2 inch pockets at the East High Billiard Club in Springfield, Ohio." Some may argue that the pockets were really 5-1/2" but a local player from here in Central Ohio played a very long ring game session on the 526 table the day after Willes run. Johnny said it was the biggest bucket table he had ever played on.... So there is no doubt in my mind that the 5-1/2" pockets are a fact! With all of the resources that members here have, why doesn't someone here make this happen at the DCC this year?-->>> Set up an 8' Brunswick Sports King w/ 5-1/2" pockets, slow cloth, and "old" balls for the straight pool challenge table..... I know someone here can make that happen! Why not give John, Danny, and all of the other current top SP players a shot at glory under the same conditions Willie had???????

Saw

 

[Roy Steffensen]

I know this whole Mosconi 526 subject has been beat to death but here are the facts: they did use old "clay" type balls, nap cloth, and it was on an 8' Brunswick Sports King with 5-1/2" pockets. Snipped from the Wikipedia page for Willie Mosconi-->>> "The record was set on a 4 foot x 8 foot Brunswick pool table with 5 1/2 inch pockets at the East High Billiard Club in Springfield, Ohio." Some may argue that the pockets were really 5-1/2" but a local player from here in Central Ohio played a very long ring game session on the 526 table the day after Willes run. Johnny said it was the biggest bucket table he had ever played on.... So there is no doubt in my mind that the 5-1/2" pockets are a fact! With all of the resources that members here have, why doesn't someone here make this happen at the DCC this year?-->>> Set up an 8' Brunswick Sports King w/ 5-1/2" pockets, slow cloth, and "old" balls for the straight pool challenge table..... I know someone here can make that happen! Why not give John, Danny, and all of the other current top SP players a shot at glory under the same conditions Willie had???????

Saw

I thought it was a 10' table. Anyway, it would be awesome to have the "Willie-conditions" during DCC and let the best of the best give it a try

 

[yobagua]

Everyone who didnt watch last nite missed a great thrilling match. You got everything. Great shots. Great strategy. The most dumbfounding errors by champions. Pressure shots. Went down to the case game.
This is a great challenge match that will forever be with us in the history books. If only the match between Ronnie Allen and Ed Kelly was recorded. Or Marvin "The Flash" Henderson vs Ronnie. We got all to thank TAR, Justin, and Chad and crew for this. Excellent commentary by Ken and Fred and gang. Congrats to John Schmidt for winning one of the toughest match of his career to a not enough seen pro Danny Harriman. Missing tonites match will be a big mistake for those who love the game.
An added plus is the humorous chat supplied by Disco, Ktown, Ayatollah, Beav, Sarah R, and the usual gang of suspects.