I think Chohan plays the most like Ronnie... well at least his offense!
Scott Frost vs The So Called One Pocket Greats
- Thread starter watchez
- Start date
I think Chohan plays the most like Ronnie... well at least his offense!
Who was the best???
First of all we'll never know, because it is all a matter of opinion anyway. But there are some very good opinions expressed on this thread. Celtic is getting close to the heart of the matter.
But I will digress for a moment. If you had asked how Efren shaped up against all those old time great One Pocket players, you would have heard an entirely different story, even from "old timers" like me. Efren might have been the favorite over all of them, except perhaps Ronnie. I've gone into it before why I think RA was a slightly better player overall than ER. That being said, Efren would have had more tough matches against the great players from RA's generation than he does today. Guys like Taylor and Bugs, with their remarkable banking ability would have given him fits. Kelly and Worst could do everything he does today; Cooney, Shorty, Jersey Red and Cookie moved like ghosts; and Cornbread could bet you under the table. Mizerak and Sigel had virtually no weaknesses at any pool game. They would put pressure on Efren every rack. I'm not so sure Efren could have beaten Worst either. Harold could find a higher gear if he needed it.
But Efren may have prevailed anyway. He is that good! A monster at One Pocket and pool in general. But as Celtic alluded to, it is a very different time we live in. We live in an era of bar pool being king, a small fraternity of pro players (and hustlers) and only a scattering of action rooms to ply their talents. It was not that way in the "golden" era of pool in this country. Pool was thriving in the 60's and 70's, with literally thousands of new rooms opening up everywhere. And a zillion kids that wanted to be Fast Eddie. Pool was very much an underground sport, but it was a big one. There were hundreds if not thousands of guys out on the road, matching up and getting into action. You could travel on $20-30 a day with no problem. And finding games wasn't too hard either.
The real pool players were having a field day, with guys who would play in every poolroom across America. Of course it was tough for the "name" players. Once you were well known, the games dried up. You now had the choice of playing other top players or playing tournaments or both. Buddy was the most successful at doing both. He was on the road maybe 40 weeks a year. The players of this era excelled at two games, 9-Ball and One Pocket. That was where the money was, plus bar pool. It was not unusual for good players to get together (Johnston City and Vegas) and match up at both games. All the best players were striving to be considered the All Around king of pool. It meant something back then.
There was a lot of pride among the top players in those days. They weren't afraid to match up with each other to find out who was best. They actually enjoyed the tough competition. They kept each other sharp! Yes, it's true there are a lot of very good players in America today (and many more Internationally). There are probably many more excellent 9-Ball and Ten Ball players than there were in the 60's and 70's. Although I feel the best players of that era were just as good as the top players today. But I can't say that is the case with One Pocket. The game seems to have stagnated to a certain degree, with less interest, other than when Efren plays. Yes, there are some very good One Pocket players still playing the game in America, but it has not progressed Internationally like 9-Ball and Ten Ball, and the top players are not any better than what they were 15-20 years ago. And there are fewer of them.
Interesting side note that relates to this thread. Grady put on a huge One Pocket tournament in 1991 in Reno and something like 120 players showed up. All the top guns were there. But who makes it to the Finals - Ed Kelly and Cornbread Red. Red was well into his 50's and Kelly had been retired for nearly ten years. They were still better than any of the younger generation of players. There is a lot more to One Pocket than shooting balls in the hole. It isn't all eight and out! A good mover will still beat a good shooter. Old man Varner went to the finals against Gabe Owen in a very tough field one year ago in North Carolina.
Don't be so quick to blow off these former greats of One Pocket. I saw them play (most of them) and played against many of them. They were the real deal. Guys like Scott, Alex, T-Rex, Shannon and Cliff have a lot of firepower, but were they better than the One Pocket HOF'ers. I seriously doubt it. Efren is another story. And Parica could really play as well. Not as many people know that.
If you check the records of the big One Pocket events of the 90's, take a look at who was winning them. "Old Timers" like Mizerak, Sigel and Buddy. Names like Varner, Hopkins and Rempe were right there too. And Efren of course. Only Shannon (and Jeremy) seemed able to hold their own against these older guys. I'd like to hear their opinion.
First of all we'll never know, because it is all a matter of opinion anyway. But there are some very good opinions expressed on this thread. Celtic is getting close to the heart of the matter.
But I will digress for a moment. If you had asked how Efren shaped up against all those old time great One Pocket players, you would have heard an entirely different story, even from "old timers" like me. Efren might have been the favorite over all of them, except perhaps Ronnie. I've gone into it before why I think RA was a slightly better player overall than ER. That being said, Efren would have had more tough matches against the great players from RA's generation than he does today. Guys like Taylor and Bugs, with their remarkable banking ability would have given him fits. Kelly and Worst could do everything he does today; Cooney, Shorty, Jersey Red and Cookie moved like ghosts; and Cornbread could bet you under the table. Mizerak and Sigel had virtually no weaknesses at any pool game. They would put pressure on Efren every rack. I'm not so sure Efren could have beaten Worst either. Harold could find a higher gear if he needed it.
But Efren may have prevailed anyway. He is that good! A monster at One Pocket and pool in general. But as Celtic alluded to, it is a very different time we live in. We live in an era of bar pool being king, a small fraternity of pro players (and hustlers) and only a scattering of action rooms to ply their talents. It was not that way in the "golden" era of pool in this country. Pool was thriving in the 60's and 70's, with literally thousands of new rooms opening up everywhere. And a zillion kids that wanted to be Fast Eddie. Pool was very much an underground sport, but it was a big one. There were hundreds if not thousands of guys out on the road, matching up and getting into action. You could travel on $20-30 a day with no problem. And finding games wasn't too hard either.
The real pool players were having a field day, with guys who would play in every poolroom across America. Of course it was tough for the "name" players. Once you were well known, the games dried up. You now had the choice of playing other top players or playing tournaments or both. Buddy was the most successful at doing both. He was on the road maybe 40 weeks a year. The players of this era excelled at two games, 9-Ball and One Pocket. That was where the money was, plus bar pool. It was not unusual for good players to get together (Johnston City and Vegas) and match up at both games. All the best players were striving to be considered the All Around king of pool. It meant something back then.
There was a lot of pride among the top players in those days. They weren't afraid to match up with each other to find out who was best. They actually enjoyed the tough competition. They kept each other sharp! Yes, it's true there are a lot of very good players in America today (and many more Internationally). There are probably many more excellent 9-Ball and Ten Ball players than there were in the 60's and 70's. Although I feel the best players of that era were just as good as the top players today. But I can't say that is the case with One Pocket. The game seems to have stagnated to a certain degree, with less interest, other than when Efren plays. Yes, there are some very good One Pocket players still playing the game in America, but it has not progressed Internationally like 9-Ball and Ten Ball, and the top players are not any better than what they were 15-20 years ago. And there are fewer of them.
Interesting side note that relates to this thread. Grady put on a huge One Pocket tournament in 1991 in Reno and something like 120 players showed up. All the top guns were there. But who makes it to the Finals - Ed Kelly and Cornbread Red. Red was well into his 50's and Kelly had been retired for nearly ten years. They were still better than any of the younger generation of players. There is a lot more to One Pocket than shooting balls in the hole. It isn't all eight and out! A good mover will still beat a good shooter. Old man Varner went to the finals against Gabe Owen in a very tough field one year ago in North Carolina.
Don't be so quick to blow off these former greats of One Pocket. I saw them play (most of them) and played against many of them. They were the real deal. Guys like Scott, Alex, T-Rex, Shannon and Cliff have a lot of firepower, but were they better than the One Pocket HOF'ers. I seriously doubt it. Efren is another story. And Parica could really play as well. Not as many people know that.
If you check the records of the big One Pocket events of the 90's, take a look at who was winning them. "Old Timers" like Mizerak, Sigel and Buddy. Names like Varner, Hopkins and Rempe were right there too. And Efren of course. Only Shannon (and Jeremy) seemed able to hold their own against these older guys. I'd like to hear their opinion.
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You mean his mixture of offense versus defense, right?
Good point Russ. I bet if you asked Truman what would happen at Derby City if somehow Taylor and Bugs came back in their prime, he would tell you it would be no contest. 300 players, 400 players, what's the difference? 9-Ball Banks would be a joke to them. Same with a young Cannonball. I can see Taylor banking five and out game after game. And try playing Bugs safe by leaving the cue ball on the end rail. If he could see it, he could make it. He twisted Banks better than anyone playing today.
Don't get me wrong. There are quite a few terrific bankers today, like Jason Miller, John Brumbach, Brian Gregg and Shannon. But they could not have stood up to a Taylor or a Bugs. Just ask Freddie what he thinks.
Jay I respect your opinion as you have seen 100 times as many players play. I do think that SJD has played with Ronnie and Jersey Red more then anyone on the forums and him comparing Jersey Red to Scott Frost says alot. I do think Scott is above the rest of his peers currently in the US but what hurts Scott is his lack of playing top players and playing average guys or top state players who he can run over.
I do wish Efren and Scott would play but he cant win even if he does because people will still say Efren is past his prime or whatever like they did when Scott and Efren played here in Arizona. Efren did well at Galveston didn't he?, he dug deep and showed us why he is the greatest. Fact is Efren was hungover I heard from the night before and probably took Scott lightly when they played but Scott playing on home field certainly got him pumped and he did not take Efren lightly.
I do wish Efren and Scott would play but he cant win even if he does because people will still say Efren is past his prime or whatever like they did when Scott and Efren played here in Arizona. Efren did well at Galveston didn't he?, he dug deep and showed us why he is the greatest. Fact is Efren was hungover I heard from the night before and probably took Scott lightly when they played but Scott playing on home field certainly got him pumped and he did not take Efren lightly.
Lol I don't automatically think my generation is better, I don't have any pride in that way. I'm just going by what I have seen, common sense, and I'm also very open minded. If the next generation is better when I'm 60 I'll be the first to admit it.
Here is a common sense example even if you never saw any of these guys play one pocket: Every older player will admit that the players from 30 and 40 years ago didn't kick like they do today, and the reason they say that is because they didn't have to kick because 9ball had different rules... So if they couldn't kick as well as the players of today, how in the hell can they execute great kick shots in one pocket like they do today??
This is double pane sound proof glass! There is no way that lady heard the screams from her apartment! Yes!! Yes!! Can you feel that buddy!! Huh!! Huh!! Huh!! I have exercised the demons! This house is clear. Losers... Losers... Lahoo... saherrr...
Lol just a little ace ventura humor. I feel like I just made a huge point in this thread.
True about kicking in 9-Ball Donny. But in One Pocket, they did kick at balls, with different motivation. To play safe, make a ball or to move balls toward their hole. Ronnie kicked GREAT! He may have kicked two or three rails better than anyone this side of Efren. Difference is Efren was kicking to escape hooks, Ronnie was kicking to make balls!
I agree scott isnt the most talented and I bet a lot of players dont play one pocket to their capablities for sure. Def more knowledge now days. That's what I mean, the bar gets set high and then new players come around to set it higher, just like every game in life almost.
I have a video of danny d playing ronnie allen, I don't know if it is the same one you are talking about... If it is the same match I have, all I can say is I would've loved to have jumped up and played either one for all the cash that day and I'm not even a good one pocket player. And yes I know it was past their primes, but look at efren... wasnt efren giving cliff joyner 9-7 when he was 50?
REEEHEEEEEHEEEHEEEEEELLLLY ???????
I know you don't believe everything you hear, but when some of the older posters give their opinions (and they are just opinions), keep in mind that they saw some of those 'so called' champions (a not so subtle insult by Watchez, who thinks very highly of himself).
So, they saw the old guys and they watch the current top players. You probably never saw any of those guys in their prime. You are trying to compare two groups and you have no firsthand knowledge of the older guys.
Well as I learned players from today learned from players from yesterday. Have you seen some of the shots scott comes with? I think alot of shots today werent known years ago.
True, but Efren does not have major health problems brought on by "extracurricular" activities.. I think you know that to which I refer...
Furthermore, Ronnie is well known to play as well as he needs to. I saw an old match of Cornbread Red and Bugs in a tournament when they were both still fairly healthy. Cornbread was scary good, even though he was getting long in the tooth, and Ronnie was always favored over Red.
Time and hard living have not been kind to Ronnie.
Russ
How about weighing in on this one Freddie and Grady!
Curiously enough, I was in the process of re-reading for the umpteenth time all of my old "Inside Pool" magazines, as I am cutting and pasting Grady's writings into a 1P scrap book of the professor's what to do advice.
SJD, who we all respect as a 1P sage has weighed in, but I would like to get Freddy and Grady's opinion. This thread started as a Scott Frost vs the great 1P players of the past. It has now switched to who is the best banker? IMO, that would be Brian Gregg. Could he beat Eddie Taylor? Sorry, but we will never know.
Can Scott beat anybody on the planet today in 1P. Happy to say, that would be easy to find out. I'm sure Scott will be in action at the DCC, and I plan to be there betting on him.
Cross-Side-Larry
"Learn from the best, and beat the rest"
Curiously enough, I was in the process of re-reading for the umpteenth time all of my old "Inside Pool" magazines, as I am cutting and pasting Grady's writings into a 1P scrap book of the professor's what to do advice.
SJD, who we all respect as a 1P sage has weighed in, but I would like to get Freddy and Grady's opinion. This thread started as a Scott Frost vs the great 1P players of the past. It has now switched to who is the best banker? IMO, that would be Brian Gregg. Could he beat Eddie Taylor? Sorry, but we will never know.
Can Scott beat anybody on the planet today in 1P. Happy to say, that would be easy to find out. I'm sure Scott will be in action at the DCC, and I plan to be there betting on him.
Cross-Side-Larry
"Learn from the best, and beat the rest"
Not being combative here Donnie, but yes, I have seen a lot of shots that Scott shoots, and a lot of them are "old school" shots. They look exotic mainly because a lot of One Pocket players have lost touch with the way the game used to be played.
Do you own Winning One Pocket or Shots, Moves, and Strategies, Donnie?
Terrific books by Eddie Robin, that show some stuff played by the old schoolers that you just don't see anymore. Good stuff!
Russ
Voodoo Daddy
One Pocket 101
Sorry, but there a lot of guys on that list that I would rate over Scott Frost. In fact, most of them! Bugs, Taylor, Ronnie, Efren, Rags, Cookie, Marvin. C'MON, these guys were great players! These are not shortstops here. Kelly, Shorty, Cooney, Jersey Red, Cornbread! PLEASE. If Scott Frost got a steady diet of these players, he would have to find a new job.
I'd like to see Grady chime in here since he played so many of the above guys, and held his own. And he's seen Scott play. In their prime Sigel and Mizerak would have chewed him up too. Probably Hopkins and maybe Rempe, Varner and Fusco as well. Scott has a huge offense but the guys I listed were just better pool players.
P.S. Ask Scott how he came out with a 60+ Ervolino in Vegas about ten years ago. The best One Pocket players of this current generation IMO are Shannon and Gabe. Joyner was a better player too before his shoulder went out.
Truer words never spoken...
Jay - Who were the great young players of 1991? Frost, Jones, Daulton, Chohan, Owens - were they around?
One of the thoughts I had from my original post was to hear what weight it holds to be a member of the Virtual One Pocket Hall of Fame. When a player with the reputation such as Dick states that he never heard of Artie Bodendorfer until a few years ago, it makes me wonder what stories are real and what stories are just stories. And if someone like Scott Frost, Gabe Owens, Jeremy Jones, Chohan, Joyner, Daulton - the current greats of one pocket today - are shoe ins for the One Pocket Hall of Fame?
Well I've seen players that played in the 80's and 90's that are comparible to players from the 60's and 70's. I've watched buddy hall and cliff joyner play bubba giving up a bunch of weight.
I finished reading your book and I really liked it jay!