Selling Pro Pool Through Its Seedier Side

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
It has been posted that somebody (perhaps HBO) is filming a documentary at Derby City, and it made me wonder "What kind of documentary would help the game the most?" On the surface, it might seem that something portraying pool as gentlemanly and civil would be best. But maybe not.

Take a look at poker. ESPN just began a new weekly series about poker called "Tilt" and I watched the premier on Thursday night. Included in the plot of the first episode was cheating, collusion, stakehorsing, dumping, and even a little bit of violence. As we all know, all of these elements are found in pool, too.

At least for me, this look at the seedy side of poker was both fascinating and entertaining, and it made me wonder "What's wrong with selling pool through its seedier side?" Derby City would seem to present the perfect opportunity to do so.
 
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I agree 110%. I would rather watch the real gritty underside of poker then the fakey clean cut image that pool tries to put out. I am a pool player first but given a choice of watching pool or poker on TV I will go for poker, it is more entertaining and it is real.
 
Celtic said:
I agree 110%. I would rather watch the real gritty underside of poker then the fakey clean cut image that pool tries to put out. I am a pool player first but given a choice of watching pool or poker on TV I will go for poker, it is more entertaining and it is real.
Well they have tried to pass this other version of pool for years and it has totally failed. Pool needs to learn a lesson from poker and realize that the gambling side of it will bring new people over. I hate the way ESPN broadcasts pool, I won't even watch it, and I grew up playing. I really can't imagine someone who knows very little about pool to watch, if I can't even watch it. A pool documentary on road players would greatly increase interest in pool, I believe.
 
Can you imagine the list of sponsers lining up to pay ad time?

Casinos? Beer?

And what about the 'road players' ? Wont this 'documentary' KILL their action?

thebigdog said:
Well they have tried to pass this other version of pool for years and it has totally failed. Pool needs to learn a lesson from poker and realize that the gambling side of it will bring new people over. I hate the way ESPN broadcasts pool, I won't even watch it, and I grew up playing. I really can't imagine someone who knows very little about pool to watch, if I can't even watch it. A pool documentary on road players would greatly increase interest in pool, I believe.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Can you imagine the list of sponsers lining up to pay ad time?

Casinos? Beer?

And what about the 'road players' ? Wont this 'documentary' KILL their action?
I don't know if you noticed, but these road players have no action now. Maybe if they got on camera woofing at each other they might create some. Maybe you also noticed there are no sponsors now. But back in the day when they did promote pool for what it was, Mosconi and Fats would play on Wide World of Sports and those were some of the highest rated shows they ever had. Pool was in bad shape in 90's and its only gotten worse, if poker can become a TV game I think pool got some hope, it just has to be promoted the right way.
 
thebigdog said:
I don't know if you noticed, but these road players have no action now. Maybe if they got on camera woofing at each other they might create some. Maybe you also noticed there are no sponsors now. But back in the day when they did promote pool for what it was, Mosconi and Fats would play on Wide World of Sports and those were some of the highest rated shows they ever had. Pool was in bad shape in 90's and its only gotten worse, if poker can become a TV game I think pool got some hope, it just has to be promoted the right way.
One other thing, I think this would only help action for one other reason. Poker, every one now knows guys like Johnny Chan, and Doyle Brunson, etc. people are lining up to get on the tables with these guys, how come being on tv, and in movies hasn't killed their action? It made people what to get in with them more
 
thebigdog said:
A pool documentary on road players would greatly increase interest in pool, I believe.


Where are Ken Burns, PBS, and ESPN Classic when you have all the colorful material from the pool world. Stories on Jersey Red, Cornbread Red, Keith, Grady, and/or a dozen others would make an outstanding series of programs......

Hell I'd settle on a 60 Minutes piece on the match up table at Hopkins SB-Expo.
 
thebigdog said:
One other thing, I think this would only help action for one other reason. Poker, every one now knows guys like Johnny Chan, and Doyle Brunson, etc. people are lining up to get on the tables with these guys, how come being on tv, and in movies hasn't killed their action? It made people what to get in with them more

It's been said before- the public perceives cards as luck and pool as skill.

-pige
 
Back in the 60's when I was a kid, I, too, watched Fats on WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS. Oooohhhh, for the good ol' days.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Can you imagine the list of sponsers lining up to pay ad time?

No, I can't imagine. But then I think that most of the reality TV shows and poker may not be long lived entertainment. The success of pro snooker in the UK, and it's excellent TV coverage, does not include selling out the game by focusing on some marginal humanoid behaviour. I'd be interested in knowing more about the rise in popularity of the game in Taiwan, but it too does not seem (from what I've read) to emhasize the old-west-outlaw type charactors, rather they had to overcome those perceptions to make it acceptable. I think that trying to make pool popular with the masses by promoting its "cheating, collusion, stakehorsing, dumping, and even a little bit of violence" may make some short term progress, but it is selling out a fabulous game/sport to the whims of American TV viewers. When their whims change the whole premise on which you've built pools popularity will be out the window, and the game we so love will be tossed along with the rest of the crap. JMO.

Dave
 
IMHO, pool should be portrayed for what it is, without intentionally making it proper and without intentionally making it seedy. It is what it is. Definitely someone should make the stories of the old road players into a TV show, just the ones JAM currently tells on this board is enough to captivate me. Also I am under the firm belief that pool can captivate the MTV crowd...that in itself would make pool popular beyond belief.
 
Does anyone remember the movie The Hustler. The film that brought thousands back to the poolroom. Pretty seedy characters and conflicts. But showed the pool player (Fats) as still dignified even amongst the rats and one (Eddie) learning how to become that.
Has anyone seen a play by Shakespeare. Macbeth, Hamlet, King Lear are all evil bastards. But we are mesmerized by their conflicts. Facts play second to the TRUTH. The real lives of pool players are in all their brutal honesty is what we are interested in. How they can survive this world of warriors. How good can still triumph over overbearing conditions. Like an Efren Reyes who comes from a 3rd World country to become the best in the world and still be a wonderful human being. To a young country boy becoming one of the most feared gamblers like Shannon Daulton or a Corey Deuel a young boy living with his single parent mom to become US Champion. Or a damn wild man perfectionist like Earl the Pearl. Man I am waiting for these stories without the Hollywood bullshit or the prettying up of pool like the WPBA/BCA try to do. The Truths will always survive the bullshit.
 
The rumor is that Cliff Joyner and Efren had a one pocket match up for $30K. If that had been televised/streamed, I have to think that it would have enjoyed very good ratings.

Like poker, real gambling matches would draw a lot of viewers.

I"m not a gambler but I have no problem with people gambling (until it becomes "a problem") and I don't see the gambling as being the "seedier" side of pool. It's just life...as it is everyday. Just life. But...it is an exciting and interesting side of pool life....or bowling life...or golf, or poker.
 
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There's two sides to the pool coin: topnotch professional play AND the mystique of gambling. It is difficult to separate the two because most, but not all, pool players in the States engaged in games of stakes in the past, still do in the present, and will continue. To date, I cannot name one player who has become rich from gambling in pool.

Having said that, though, you've got players like Kid Delicious who tried the on-the-road routine, and it didn't take too long for him to realize that it is not a very glamorous or economically feasible way of life. So he embarked on a new pool journey, deciding he'd take a shot at professional pool. Danny made it to the top in the year 2004, and I think we will be seeing more of him in 2005.

Good decision on Danny's part, and his sponsor, Pittsburgh Steel, has provided him well-deserved opportunities to continue his mission. There are MANY other aspiring players, though, who cannot afford to be a so-called "professional" because the monthly expenses are too high to keep up with the pack. So the current lot of male pros, due to the faulty UPA ranking system, will continue to dominate the tour, making it impossible for others to enjoy the benefits of being a member, unless, of course, they are independently wealthy and can afford expending $3,000 to $5,000 a month for professional play.

If the "sport," as I like to call it, had larger money payouts in competitive events, the gambling side would not be as prominent. However, for some folks who depend on playing pool for a living, it is difficult, as we all know, to make ends meet because of the huge expenses needed to keep up with the tournament trail. For the employed pool player, they have obligations and responsibilities, making it quite difficult to attend week-long events that could take place in 2 days. They ain't going to quit their day job to enter a career that is fraught with financial hardships.

I liken the gambling side to the study of human behavior, which also comes into play with poker. The woofing is part of the allure, watching players set the bait and seeing who bites, and it can be quite entertaining. The fact of the matter is that a pool player can win more money gambling than playing in tournaments, but the occupational hazards -- AND THEY ARE MANY -- create problems and make for an awful lifestyle, with absolutely no stability. We always hear about the big wins, like the fisherman who caught the Big Kahuna, but rarely do we hear about the players who hit rock bottom, a real pit of despair, and end up leaving pool entirely, sometimes beat up so bad because of self-induced substance abuse and poverty.

Years ago, I saw a documentary about a lady pool player from Europe. I am not able to remember her name at the time of this writing, but it followed her progress on the tournament trail, practice sessions, her family background, and it was actually quite interesting.

I cannot think of a better place than the Derby in Louisville for a documentary. If done correctly and tastefully, I think it will be a hit. I do believe that pool is on the brink of making it big time in the year 2005, and programs such as this would definitely be a boost in the arm.

I am looking forward to reading more updates in Louisville for us inquiring minds back home! :p

JAM
 
JimS said:
The rumor is that Cliff Joyner and Efren had a one pocket match up for $30K. If that had been televised/streamed, I have to think that it would have enjoyed very good ratings.

Like poker, real gambling matches would draw a lot of viewers.

I"m not a gambler but I have no problem with people gambling (until it becomes "a problem") and I don't see the gambling as being the "seedier" side of pool. It's just life...as it is everyday. Just life. But...it is an exciting and interesting side of pool life....or bowling life...or golf, or poker.
Yes, I heard that Efren spot *Cliff* a ball for 30 large the day before I got to the DCC (Jan 16). For the benefit of the players and railbirds, the tv wasn't there. The TV *was* there though when Deuel and Luat were "matching up" in a game of rotation. I have never seen a blander gambling session in my life. The guys next to me kept asking, "Are they really playing for money?" I was forced to reply a few times, "Well, TV money." Blander than that, only poker on ESPN.
 
JimS said:
...I don't see the gambling as being the "seedier" side of pool. It's just life...as it is everyday. Just life. But...it is an exciting and interesting side of pool life....

Among the Dictionary.com definitions for seedy is "somewhat disreputable" and it would be difficult indeed to argue that the pool gambling scene isn't seedy using that defintion of the word. I suspect that on this forum alone, there have been hundreds of posts in the past year citing real life examples of such seediness.

I do agree with you, however, that not every instance of pool gambling is seedy. Exciting and interesting, we agree on that, too.
 
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