Shaft end mass, deflection and snooker cues: Calling Science Guys

[Jal]

All very interesting. How far from the tip do mass variations become insignificant to a player experiencing squirt? And how quickly does the effect fall away with distance?

Mike Page did experiments several years ago and found that mass added beyond about 6" from the tip had no noticeable effect on the amount of squirt. Steve "I'm blocking on his last name" of Platinum Billiards measured the effects of a certain amount of mass added at specific distances from the tip. He reported the results to the RSB group (rec.sports.billiards) some time ago too. More recently, Dr. Dave did the same sort of test(s) for his Feb., 2008 article in "Billiards Digest." (See Diagram 4 on page 4.)

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/feb08.pdf

Several more articles on squirt (amongst others) are available on the same web-page:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html

BTW, to muddy the waters even further in the snooker cue / pool cue comparison, snooker ferules are usually dense (brass) but the effect will be mitigated by the fact that they are also much shorter than pool ferules.

If you use the empirical data from above and figure in the different mass densities of brass and other ferrule materials, as well as the relevant dimensions, you might be able to come up with a comparative estimate. Sorry, haven't the time myself right now.

Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I saw Patrick Johnson's tests on Youtube. He empirically showed deflection is really affected by end mass. I always felt that the shaft taper would have an effect but his tests blew that theory out of water. Props to you Patrick Johnson.

I've never posted to youtube, but props to that other Patrick Johnson from me too. (Sure you don't mean my buddy Mike Page?)

I'm only reporting what I've heard from others who have tested over the years. As JAL says, rigidity theoretically should have some effect on squirt - maybe the range of rigidity among pool cues is just too slight to matter.

pj
chgo

 

[McChen]

Wouldn't doubt that since I was only told they were 2-1/8" but they always seem smaller then 1/8" than a standard pool ball.

american snooker balls are typically 2 1/8" but the english ones are 2 1/16"

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I agree with Fred. However, you will get contrary views from some snooker players. Many of the top snooker players who sometimes shoot pool get special pool shafts. Some feel that the larger ball will damage the smaller tip.

As I tell everybody who will listen, my pool shafts have 10mm tips (maybe smaller). I never break with them, but even so I've replaced a few ferrules in the three years I've had them. I'm pretty sure this is because the ferrules are made like the ones on thicker tips: hollow sleeves that slip over a round tenon at the end of the shaft. My shafts are thin and hollow, so the ferrule walls and the tenon walls have to be thinner.

As a matter of fact I'm having one replaced right now, but I'm finally having the short tenon cut off and a thin solid disc glued on (which is the way I designed it in the first place). When my next one goes I may try just a fiber tip pad with no ferrule. I believe Bob Jewett plays (at least sometimes) with a tip glued directly to his shaft wood.

pj
chgo

 

[Fatboy]

american snooker balls are typically 2 1/8" but the english ones are 2 1/16"

its makes a huge difference from 2 1/8" down to 2 1/16". I can use a pool cue with a 12mm shaft on 2 1/8" balls, not possible with the smaller ones


I have 2 1/16" balls on my table at home, If I use my cue which has a 12.75mm shaft I cant draw the ball much or get any side spin either-some but not much, force follow is there, since I'm used to a pool cue I pot(make) balls real easly compaired to my snooker cue.


With the snooker cue-(its ash with a 9.5mm brass ferreul) I get alot of side spin, draw, follow, but my potting is bad because i'm not used to the cue, its a world of difference between the 2 cues.


I wouldnt hit pool balls with my snooker cue only because it would smash the tip flat, when my tip is worn out I'm going to play pool with it before I put a new tip on, I just havent had the cue long enough to go do that, I dont think a snooker cue will be good for pool.


2 different games- 2 different tools(cues) are required, A different shaft is a half-assed solution even using the 2 1/8" balls it might work but the proper cue is the solution.


I also dont think its possible to play both games in top form at the same time, its ALOT different. proper English snooker on nap cloth, vs, American pool. the stroke, stance, everything is very different.

 

[mnorwood]

its makes a huge difference from 2 1/8" down to 2 1/16". I can use a pool cue with a 12mm shaft on 2 1/8" balls, not possible with the smaller ones


I have 2 1/16" balls on my table at home, If I use my cue which has a 12.75mm shaft I cant draw the ball much or get any side spin either-some but not much, force follow is there, since I'm used to a pool cue I pot(make) balls real easly compaired to my snooker cue.


With the snooker cue-(its ash with a 9.5mm brass ferreul) I get alot of side spin, draw, follow, but my potting is bad because i'm not used to the cue, its a world of difference between the 2 cues.


I wouldnt hit pool balls with my snooker cue only because it would smash the tip flat, when my tip is worn out I'm going to play pool with it before I put a new tip on, I just havent had the cue long enough to go do that, I dont think a snooker cue will be good for pool.


2 different games- 2 different tools(cues) are required, A different shaft is a half-assed solution even using the 2 1/8" balls it might work but the proper cue is the solution.


I also dont think its possible to play both games in top form at the same time, its ALOT different. proper English snooker on nap cloth, vs, American pool. the stroke, stance, everything is very different.

What tip are you using? I have a buddy that shoots pool with an elkmaster tip and he has never complained about it getting smashed. You can by hard, rigid snooker tips also.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Fatboy:
its makes a huge difference from 2 1/8" down to 2 1/16".

I think it's actually 2 1/6" down to 2 1/15", but who's counting?

Here's a comparison of billiard ball sizes and weights (and a Wikipedia article about them):



Compared to an American pool ball:

A carom ball is 25% heavier.
A British pool ball is 6% lighter.
An American snooker ball is 8% lighter.
A British snooker ball is 22% lighter.

A Russian pool ball is 68% heavier!

pj
chgo

Edit: British balls measured in mm, converted to inches (rounded to nearest 1/16); American balls measured in inches, converted to mm (rounded to nearest .1 mm).

 

[Siz]

As I tell everybody who will listen, my pool shafts have 10mm tips (maybe smaller)...

Absolutely. I think that the main reason why some top snooker players are unwilling to use their snooker cue when playing pool is a fear of damaging it that can approach paranoia. It is usual for snooker players to have only one cue and for them to use if for decades - perhaps all their playing career. Not a good idea IMHO, since it tends to generate a state of dependency (real or imagined) on a single cue.

BTW I think that the table included in a later post has a slight inaccuracy: Outside the US, standard snooker (and English billiard) balls are 2 1/16" not 2 1/15". But as you say - who's counting?

 

[Cornerman]

american snooker balls are typically 2 1/8" but the english ones are 2 1/16"

This is my experience also. In fact, my "home pool rooom" had a 12' snooker table from Canada, but had 2 1/8" balls and small pockets. It must be some running joke to setup 12' snooker tables in America with horrendously tight pockets. So, we all thought that the snooker players must be just so tremendous since none of us could have fun on the table for too long while we watched on TV the snooker champions making it looks so easy.

Then I went to Europe. Same size tables. Slightly bigger pockets. Slightly smaller balls. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's a hell of a lot easier than what we were doing. My guess is that over 90% of all Americans whose only experience in snooker is on tricked out 12' tables or on American Snooker tables have no idea the fun they could actually have on proper equipment.

Fred

 

[McChen]

I think it's actually 2 1/6" down to 2 1/15", but who's counting?

Here's a comparison of billiard ball sizes and weights (and a Wikipedia article about them):

View attachment 100134

Compared to an American pool ball:

A carom ball is 26% heavier.
A British pool ball is 5% lighter.
An American snooker ball is 10% lighter.
A British snooker ball is 22% lighter.

A Russian pool ball is 70% heavier!

pj
chgo

there's a bunch of mistakes on that table. english snooker balls are definitely 2 1/16". and english pool balls are 2", even smaller than snooker balls. the cue ball is a different size most of the time, 1 7/8"

 

[TX Poolnut]

Interesting thread.

 

[ShootingArts]

huge pocket radius too

This is my experience also. In fact, my "home pool rooom" had a 12' snooker table from Canada, but had 2 1/8" balls and small pockets. It must be some running joke to setup 12' snooker tables in America with horrendously tight pockets. So, we all thought that the snooker players must be just so tremendous since none of us could have fun on the table for too long while we watched on TV the snooker champions making it looks so easy.

Then I went to Europe. Same size tables. Slightly bigger pockets. Slightly smaller balls. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's a hell of a lot easier than what we were doing. My guess is that over 90% of all Americans whose only experience in snooker is on tricked out 12' tables or on American Snooker tables have no idea the fun they could actually have on proper equipment.

Fred

Fred,

When I see the overheads of the Championship snooker tables and a close-up of a Riley Championship pocket I am amazed at how soft the pockets are compared to the monsters that I spent two or three hours a day on for a few years. Interestingly I was talking to a friend from the Philippines and started talking about the pockets on the snooker tables I played on. He got all excited, said that was exactly the kind of table he learned on.

I don't know if the old antiques were made that way or someone modified them somewhere over the years but the toughest thing about the tables was a very small pocket radius cut very deep in the pocket. The wider radius further out makes shots far easier. Even so, the toughest thing about the monsters was changing my mindset about what was an acceptable shot. Once I learned what the pockets would accept snooker became a far easier game.

I find it funny that people don't recognize that played right the vast majority of the game is played in a 3x6 area and then there is a set pattern of balls just like a drill that finishes every game. Snooker is a little harder than pool but not nearly as much harder as people that try it once or twice imagine.

Hu

 

[dr_dave]

squirt videos and resources

Where are these youtubes? I'd love to see them, especially if accompanied by the pj wit.

Here are some videos dealing with squirt:

NV B.1 - Mike Page's squirt and swerve video
NV B.32 - Squirt and the effects of endmass
HSV B.47 - effect of shaft endmass and squirt on miscue limit​

I also have many links to additional article and video resources dealing with squirt here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Sorry for my late reply. I was out of town this past week.

It is a well established fact that deflection depends on the mass of the end of the shaft on any given cue.

Snooker shafts have smaller diameters which would logically mean that the end mass is lighter.

So the question is shouldn't snooker shafts be low deflection? Or does the brass ferrule make it heavier?

PJ, Fred, Bob, and Jal have answered this already. A smaller shaft and smaller (and lighter) ferrule result in less endmass and less squirt.

If the shaft is low deflection what are the drawbacks for hitting pool balls with snooker cues?

Some people might not like the "feel" or "hit" of a snooker cue. Also, some people might not like a low-squirt cue if they are more accustomed to a squirtier cue. For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt​

Regards,
Dave

PS: FYI, I have a lot of info and links to useful resources about squirt here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html​

 

[Patrick Johnson]

there's a bunch of mistakes on that table.

You mention only two (is that "a bunch"?), and you're mistaken about at least one of them.

english snooker balls are definitely 2 1/16".

According to the International Billiards and Snooker Federation (http://www.ibsf.info/rules-snooker.shtml):

"The balls ... shall each have a diameter of 52.5mm with a tolerance of +/- 0.05mm"

If you do the math you'll find that's 2 1/15" (actually slightly more), not 2 1/16". I assume people say 2 1/16" because inches are commonly divided into 16ths and 1/15 is very close to 1/16.

english pool balls are 2", even smaller than snooker balls. the cue ball is a different size most of the time, 1 7/8"

The IBSF says "English billiard balls" are the same size as snooker balls (http://www.ibsf.info/rules-billiards.shtml). Are you talking about the same balls?

pj
chgo

 

[McChen]

i always heard the balls referred to as 2 1/16", but i can buy that that's a rounding error

english billiard use the same balls and table as snooker, so they should be the same size. the table said english pool balls, which i took to mean english 8-ball (reds & yellows).

 

[mnorwood]

Sorry for my late reply. I was out of town this past week.

PJ, Fred, Bob, and Jal have answered this already. A smaller shaft and smaller (and lighter) ferrule result in less endmass and less squirt.

Some people might not like the "feel" or "hit" of a snooker cue. Also, some people might not like a low-squirt cue if they are more accustomed to a squirtier cue. For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt​

Regards,
Dave

PS: FYI, I have a lot of info and links to useful resources about squirt here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html​

Thanks I always enjoy your input.:smile:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

i always heard the balls referred to as 2 1/16", but i can buy that that's a rounding error

english billiard use the same balls and table as snooker, so they should be the same size. the table said english pool balls, which i took to mean english 8-ball (reds & yellows).

I took the names and sizes from the Wikipedia article, which might not be 100% accurate. If anybody knows of a better source, I'd be happy to update the chart.

pj
chgo